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ORIGINAL: DomKen
All they cared about was keeping people without an MBA from making a decent living for a skilled job.

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ORIGINAL: bossman777

Here's a brain teaser for you guys on this thread: Is it more selfish to want the price of corn high or low?

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ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

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ORIGINAL: Tkman117

That kinda ignores a lot of principles of economics, the biggest of which being inflation. Inflation has raised prices over the years, but from what I know, minimum wage in the US hasn't gone up to compensate since the mid 1900s. How can you keep up with inflation if you're making less than what you need to survive?

Minimum wage was raised July 24th, 2009 and in September 2013 California approved to raise the minimum wage to $10 by 2016.

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ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

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ORIGINAL: Tkman117

That kinda ignores a lot of principles of economics, the biggest of which being inflation. Inflation has raised prices over the years, but from what I know, minimum wage in the US hasn't gone up to compensate since the mid 1900s. How can you keep up with inflation if you're making less than what you need to survive?

Minimum wage was raised July 24th, 2009 and in September 2013 California approved to raise the minimum wage to $10 by 2016.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: ExoticInterests

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

That theory is disproven daily in this nation.

I was a computer programmer, a very good and very successful one. I, and a lot of people like me, demanded wages reflective of my competence. After a while, when trade laws started allowing it, corporate America outsourced as many programmer jobs as they could to India and Pakistan. They didn't care that quality went down, that projects too longer and costs actually went up. All they cared about was keeping people without an MBA from making a decent living for a skilled job.

That was very mean and spiteful of them! They sacrificed profit just to push people without an MBA down? And that was all they cared about, just keeping you down....not what they thought would be best for the business at the time (whether it really was or not)?

So where do you draw the line of competition for your skills? This hemisphere? This country? Your state, county, city? Exactly where should they limit themselves for finding the most skill at the best price? And why?

It's the modern age, a programmer should know distance means nothing, skill means everything. Perhaps they made a stupid decision, they will lose money and change course, or be eaten by smarter competition.

Did you not read what I wrote? By every single metric outsourcing programmers was bad for the companies that did it. Quality went down, projects took longer and costs went up. But they got to fire a bunch of highly paid US coders. Check around with any programmers who were working in the late 90's.

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ORIGINAL: EventideFortuna

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: ExoticInterests

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

That theory is disproven daily in this nation.

I was a computer programmer, a very good and very successful one. I, and a lot of people like me, demanded wages reflective of my competence. After a while, when trade laws started allowing it, corporate America outsourced as many programmer jobs as they could to India and Pakistan. They didn't care that quality went down, that projects too longer and costs actually went up. All they cared about was keeping people without an MBA from making a decent living for a skilled job.

That was very mean and spiteful of them! They sacrificed profit just to push people without an MBA down? And that was all they cared about, just keeping you down....not what they thought would be best for the business at the time (whether it really was or not)?

So where do you draw the line of competition for your skills? This hemisphere? This country? Your state, county, city? Exactly where should they limit themselves for finding the most skill at the best price? And why?

It's the modern age, a programmer should know distance means nothing, skill means everything. Perhaps they made a stupid decision, they will lose money and change course, or be eaten by smarter competition.

Did you not read what I wrote? By every single metric outsourcing programmers was bad for the companies that did it. Quality went down, projects took longer and costs went up. But they got to fire a bunch of highly paid US coders. Check around with any programmers who were working in the late 90's.

As a Highly Paid US Programmer for the last 5 years, who Still has a job... Gonna have to say, in the 3 companies ive worked for, the only coders that got fired in these jobs, were crap or slow coders

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this is in canada, I can't even imagine what it's like in the states for kids like me.

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ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

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ORIGINAL: Tkman117
people cannot survive on these wages and simply cannot get a higher paying job

I have survived on minimum wage. It meant I had to economize. It meant I had roommates. It meant I drove an older car. It meant that I didn't own fancy jewelry, designer clothes or even have anything beyond basic cable. It meant I didn't get pregnant and have children I couldn't afford.

I'm about to sound very callous. If someone (in a normal economy) cannot get a better paying job, it's usually because of their own choices. They chose not to take advantage of free education. They chose not to further their education/skills.

And before anyone bitches, I didn't go to college until I was 20 and paid my own way through....because I realized I wouldn't get anywhere unless I pushed myself further.

But, even as a small example: A California fast food chain In -N- Out, pays higher than minimum wage. In return they expect you to be able to speak clearly, in complete sentences, and show a drive for customer service. Their restaurants routinely have lines out of the parking lot and a wait for tables inside the store itself.

While I'll agree that minimum wage needs to be raised to reflect local economy, I take issue with $15 an hour. An unskilled burger flipper shouldn't be paid at the same level as someone who has pursued further education to gain skills. I'll also add that $15 an hour minimum
wage would have an impact where inflation would impact the entire society. If prices, services and matching salary increases are raised to feed the higher minimum wage, it would negate the raise to minimum wage and go beyond those minimum wage workers.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: ExoticInterests

Well, let's try this one. How about an employer can offer what they think the job is worth. If the employee is worth more than that, the competition will gladly offer that employee a little more $. If the first employer doesn't raise what he's willing to pay too, he will soon find himself with no competent employees and out of business. This works best for skilled jobs, but lets not forget that the service industry still actually does involve skill, or at least some sense....everyone has had rude, dirty, incompetent cashier's (for example)...did it make you want to go back there? If the competition offers a little bit better pay but only employs people that treat the customer well and make a good impression, and you do not, then you will be left with the bottom of the bucket. Want proof, compare Chick-fil-A and that grease joint with the arches. Which do you enjoy more?

That theory is disproven daily in this nation.

I was a computer programmer, a very good and very successful one. I, and a lot of people like me, demanded wages reflective of my competence. After a while, when trade laws started allowing it, corporate America outsourced as many programmer jobs as they could to India and Pakistan. They didn't care that quality went down, that projects too longer and costs actually went up. All they cared about was keeping people without an MBA from making a decent living for a skilled job.

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Low-wage Workers Are Older Than You Think

The average age of affected workers is 35 years old;
88 percent of all affected workers are at least 20 years old;
35.5 percent are at least 40 years old;
56 percent are women;
28 percent have children;
55 percent work full-time (35 hours per week or more);
44 percent have at least some college experience.
http://www.epi.org/publication/wage-workers-older-88-percent-workers-benefit/

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ORIGINAL: EventideFortuna

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: ExoticInterests

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

That theory is disproven daily in this nation.

I was a computer programmer, a very good and very successful one. I, and a lot of people like me, demanded wages reflective of my competence. After a while, when trade laws started allowing it, corporate America outsourced as many programmer jobs as they could to India and Pakistan. They didn't care that quality went down, that projects too longer and costs actually went up. All they cared about was keeping people without an MBA from making a decent living for a skilled job.

That was very mean and spiteful of them! They sacrificed profit just to push people without an MBA down? And that was all they cared about, just keeping you down....not what they thought would be best for the business at the time (whether it really was or not)?

So where do you draw the line of competition for your skills? This hemisphere? This country? Your state, county, city? Exactly where should they limit themselves for finding the most skill at the best price? And why?

It's the modern age, a programmer should know distance means nothing, skill means everything. Perhaps they made a stupid decision, they will lose money and change course, or be eaten by smarter competition.

Did you not read what I wrote? By every single metric outsourcing programmers was bad for the companies that did it. Quality went down, projects took longer and costs went up. But they got to fire a bunch of highly paid US coders. Check around with any programmers who were working in the late 90's.

As a Highly Paid US Programmer for the last 5 years, who Still has a job... Gonna have to say, in the 3 companies ive worked for, the only coders that got fired in these jobs, were crap or slow coders

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ORIGINAL: papassion

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExoticInterests

Well, let's try this one. How about an employer can offer what they think the job is worth. If the employee is worth more than that, the competition will gladly offer that employee a little more $. If the first employer doesn't raise what he's willing to pay too, he will soon find himself with no competent employees and out of business. This works best for skilled jobs, but lets not forget that the service industry still actually does involve skill, or at least some sense....everyone has had rude, dirty, incompetent cashier's (for example)...did it make you want to go back there? If the competition offers a little bit better pay but only employs people that treat the customer well and make a good impression, and you do not, then you will be left with the bottom of the bucket. Want proof, compare Chick-fil-A and that grease joint with the arches. Which do you enjoy more?

That theory is disproven daily in this nation.

I was a computer programmer, a very good and very successful one. I, and a lot of people like me, demanded wages reflective of my competence. After a while, when trade laws started allowing it, corporate America outsourced as many programmer jobs as they could to India and Pakistan. They didn't care that quality went down, that projects too longer and costs actually went up. All they cared about was keeping people without an MBA from making a decent living for a skilled job.

Ken, You said you DEMANDED a wage reflective of your competance. You feel you have the right to demand a wage, but employers do NOT have the SAME rights to find someone who will do the same quality job for less money? Ken, grow up, real Life is an auction. You bid what you will work for, others bid for what they will work for. Lowest bidder wins. Real life.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: EventideFortuna

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExoticInterests

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

That theory is disproven daily in this nation.

I was a computer programmer, a very good and very successful one. I, and a lot of people like me, demanded wages reflective of my competence. After a while, when trade laws started allowing it, corporate America outsourced as many programmer jobs as they could to India and Pakistan. They didn't care that quality went down, that projects too longer and costs actually went up. All they cared about was keeping people without an MBA from making a decent living for a skilled job.

That was very mean and spiteful of them! They sacrificed profit just to push people without an MBA down? And that was all they cared about, just keeping you down....not what they thought would be best for the business at the time (whether it really was or not)?

So where do you draw the line of competition for your skills? This hemisphere? This country? Your state, county, city? Exactly where should they limit themselves for finding the most skill at the best price? And why?

It's the modern age, a programmer should know distance means nothing, skill means everything. Perhaps they made a stupid decision, they will lose money and change course, or be eaten by smarter competition.

Did you not read what I wrote? By every single metric outsourcing programmers was bad for the companies that did it. Quality went down, projects took longer and costs went up. But they got to fire a bunch of highly paid US coders. Check around with any programmers who were working in the late 90's.

As a Highly Paid US Programmer for the last 5 years, who Still has a job... Gonna have to say, in the 3 companies ive worked for, the only coders that got fired in these jobs, were crap or slow coders

So? The outsourcing occurred back in the late 1990's and early 2000's. Just check with the people who have actually been in the field for a while.

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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

And you're still unemployed.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

And you're still unemployed.

Actually I'm disabled and unable to work. I worked right up until I got so sick I had to go on dialysis in 2010. I was lucky and the my specialty was not something the companies could outsource to crappy programmers, financial software.

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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

And you're still unemployed.

Actually I'm disabled and unable to work. I worked right up until I got so sick I had to go on dialysis in 2010. I was lucky and the my specialty was not something the companies could outsource to crappy programmers, financial software.

But....you can type on a computer, and your mind works.

Kinda seems (so long as the requisite skill set is there) what's required as a programmer.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

And you're still unemployed.

Actually I'm disabled and unable to work. I worked right up until I got so sick I had to go on dialysis in 2010. I was lucky and the my specialty was not something the companies could outsource to crappy programmers, financial software.

But....you can type on a computer, and your mind works.

Kinda seems (so long as the requisite skill set is there) what's required as a programmer.

working the requisite 50 to 60 hours a week is out of the question for me. I do pick up some freelance work but no one wants to hire a part time programmer.

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

The key point you don't seem to understand is that minimum wage is an entry level wage not a living wage.

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Point two is that when you bring up the minimum wage everything else comes up

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ORIGINAL: girl4man
In the course of running a business, you'll learn so much, even if you fail.

It's a real eye opener.

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ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

While I'll agree that minimum wage needs to be raised to reflect local economy, I take issue with $15 an hour. An unskilled burger flipper shouldn't be paid at the same level as someone who has pursued further education to gain skills.