RE: The Word of the Average American (Full Version)

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MariaB -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/8/2013 9:23:22 AM)

Wow, I don't normally come in here and had no idea it was so aggressive!

I'm not really sure what the threads about even though I have read through it from front to back! Are we talking lack of communication because of technology or is this topic about cursive handwriting ?

I have my grandmothers journals, all 41 of them. Each one is hand written in ink on embossed parchment. These journals are worthless to anyone other than her family and those who knew and loved her but to me they are a family treasure. Her writing is very distinct. Its somewhat italic but changes according to her mood. There are no dots above the 'i's' but little circles and when she speaks about my grandfather, those circles become little hearts. I often run my fingers along her pen strokes and feel my grandmothers presence through her writing.

Handwriting is a way people can express themselves and in my opinion, an absolutely essential skill.




sweetgirlserves -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/12/2013 2:59:10 PM)

Hello Maria,

We are talking about what was ingrained in human consciousness via cursive writing... and what is being lost because we no longer use it.


That leads to our communication problems due to technology... Well... first, we lose the importance of our word, and then, we use the wrong words, and maybe even incorrect punctuation, and then, of course, depending on the reader's frame of mind, and depending how clear or unclear I may have actually been in my communication, they could have an incorrect perception of what my intent was, and that might lead to an incorrect or off-base assumption, which might lead you to say something back to me....

yikes...

At least when we handwrote, we had to take our time to make sure you could read it, and we knew our reader could read it, because we would go back and re-read what we had written first.... that's what I did all through elementary school anyways, what did you do in elementary school, Maria?

Sincerely,
~sgs



VideoAdminGamma -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/12/2013 3:12:18 PM)

Fast reply

Unless some effort is made to steer this topic towards a Gorean perspective, then it will be moved to the Off Topic section.

Thanks,
Gamma



Musicmystery -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/12/2013 3:57:45 PM)

Bless you, Gamma. Long overdue.



sweetgirlserves -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/12/2013 6:57:51 PM)

Greetings to the Free,
Greetings slave,


From a Gorean perspective... It seems to me, from the books that I have read, that a Gorean Free Person values His/Her word. They speak from their hearts, and they speak their truth, and they share it with others, unashamed. Their truth is theirs, they have earned it, and they have the right to share it in all honesty, with their fellow countryman.

It seems to me, from a Gorean perspective, if I know in my head that I haven't read a book, just a page or a snipet here and there, and then I try to enforce my own morality upon it, .... well, I guess that wouldn't be a Gorean perspective.

From a Gorean perspective, I will draw my own Christmas cards with watercolor pencils, after taking a walk and contemplating what special message I have for the important people in my life and my Master's life...one person at a time, and will write a sincere thoughtful note to each person, in my own handwriting with ink, and I will sign my name, and date it.

Most of these things (except for drawing the pictures some years), I have done most years, until I stopped doing that, and just started writing the same thing to everyone, such as... Hope you have a wonderful Christmas and hope to see you in the New Year!... I think, somehow, when I stopped writing my special messages and started writing the same thing... I think that's when I lost my "Gorean Perspective".... That was probably several years before I should have gotten a divorce.

From a Gorean perspective, I let myself almost die trying to stay in a loveless marriage, "acting the part of wife" while playing the part of business partner. From a Gorean perspective, I can't tell you how many years I would sit there with him in the living room, watching Scrooge (ever version of it especially the Disney movie), and over and over the scene of him counting his money and ignoring the girl who loved him.

So from a Gorean perspective, I had to change my truth. My truth was that once you made a vow, before God and a church, full of witnesses, that you will stay married "until death do you part", you should keep it. Period. My new truth is that, I will not let myself die to keep that truth. So that is not a good truth for me. Life without love is not Gorean. And love without life, isn't either. Not for me anyways.

Sincerely,
~sgs




thishereboi -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/12/2013 7:15:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Cursive handwriting, like shorthand, is obsolete. Computers have taken the place of notebooks. Power point has replaced blackboards. Texting has replaced memo taking.


What a load of crap.

Texting is hardly a replacement for memo taking. Prepared presentations are hardly the same as spontaneous use of a white board or blackboard. My VA can transcribe my teleseminars faster herself than I can using dictation software.

And "merely pretty" but "unnecessary" and "useless" knowledge of cursive writing is going to become important pretty quickly when a professor or a boss or anyone in whatever context hands a grown up a note the "modern" student is unable to read -- because it's in cursive.

Contrary to your quasi-utopian fantasy, all writing is not tied to machines.



It is here! Nobody leaves little pink memos. Everything is done by text (email, sms, kakao talk). In fact, the last two years when I've taught about memo taking, I've gotten blank stares. The students have *no idea* what I'm talking about. They've never seen a "while you were out" pad. In fact, the entire section has been removed from our (USA printed) text books.

I totally agree about presentations vs. spontaneous use of whiteboards. But that's what we see. How many TED talks, conference presentations, work dog and pony shows use whiteboards? Notes in class are taken on ipads and laptops and smart phones.

You're telling me that your assistant can write *in cursive* your words faster than dictation software can print it? You must talk awfully slowly! I can usually type about as fast as someone talks, but again, this is not cursive. Is your VA transcribing in shorthand? And then typing from the shorthand? That's double work and ...still not cursive.

Sorry, Tim, our experiences are vastly different. Cursive is unnecessary and if it isn't absolutely obsolete now, it sure will be by the time this upcoming generation is running the show.

Best wishes,
sunshine


I guess my experience also differs. I have been back to college for 3 years now. The students there don't they use laptops or ipads to take notes, in fact most of the teachers forbid having them in class. You can keep your cellphone as long as it's on vibrate and you leave the room to answer it. Amazingly enough we manage to make due with pen and paper. I do agree that cursive writing will be obsolete but I think that's a shame. Pretty soon they will need to find translators to read them and eventually they will be unable to find anyone who can. But I guess that is good news for those still willing to learn. They can get jobs translating what everyone else won't be able to read.



JstAnotherSub -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/13/2013 3:20:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminGamma

Fast reply

Unless some effort is made to steer this topic towards a Gorean perspective, then it will be moved to the Off Topic section.

Thanks,
Gamma

Personally, I believe that seeing how people who claim the Gorean label respond to threads like this does reflect a Gorean perspective.

It is claimed that being Gorean affects all aspects of life, so wouldn't any topic be Gorean if discussed by Goreans? Just as any slave is a Gorean slave, if owned by a Gorean,

Everything written by a Gorean on these boards offers another insight into the beliefs and ethos of Gor. I believe topics like this, and the opportunity to see how they are replied to, give everyone one more way to learn about Goreans.




sunshinemiss -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/13/2013 5:56:33 AM)

[sm=agree.gif]

In fact, JAS, this was my point in the "Why did Gor decline/die" thread.

...there are certainly many more roads that one can travel when applying the principles. The discussions of the application tend to be shot down, ... The application of the philosophies is going to be different based on circumstances. It is these *circumstances* that are ignored - and that are the building blocks of day to day living. That is, there is no room for discussion of those building blocks. It is all black and white. Life is a myriad of colors that simply won't fit into "X is Gor."


This is an excellent example of that. We are having a discussion about words that naturally turned into a discussion about cursive writing - a dying art - versus the use of technology. I have not simply said, "Anecdotally, I experience X, Y, and Z"... Which is a fair enough point, but in this instance, I did my due diligence and showed research that backed up my opinion - something I would actually expect would be respected by Goreans... that whole "prove yourself" thing... Application of what some might consider to be Gorean principles ... and I quote from the Priest Kings of Gor (as noted in Music Mystery's post a few months ago):

And as might be expected members of the Caste of Scribes gather here to enter into dispute and examine and trade manuscripts.

To me that sure sounds like people in education who are debating research on education techniques and policy. (and isn't that what Music Mystery and I were doing?)


Application of principles - shot down. No room to discuss the day to day... also shot down and questioned as to why it belongs on a Gorean thread. And this, yes THIS, is why the board is dying.

As an aside... I was thinking about this same question - What makes a question a "Gorean" question. A few years ago, there was a "Gorean Fantasy Football" thread. How is Football Gorean? I don't remember anything about computer football games in the books. I'm happy to be enlightened. And what else is Gorean? Word etymology andChristmas Greetings - I wasn't even aware that Christianity was the religion on Gor. I don't remember reading that in the books either. Another thing I learned is that ... Viking songs are considered Gorean. Do you think the author of that song is aware that she is creating Gorean music?

None of these was pulled from the Gorean board... because?? I don't know. Evidently embroidery and 50 Shades of Gray are considered Gorean while a discussion of technology in education is not.

best,
sunshine

*edited for clarity



VideoAdminGamma -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/13/2013 7:18:23 AM)

Topics are reported by users. I am sure you have read that before. When they are reported, they are examined for compliance with guidelines. Now for the x number of times, WE DO NOT READ EVERY TOPIC.

Hopefully this time it is a bit more clear.

Now if anyone has any further comments about the application of site policy, you can contact me or Chi.

Gamma



Musicmystery -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/13/2013 11:14:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub


quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminGamma

Fast reply

Unless some effort is made to steer this topic towards a Gorean perspective, then it will be moved to the Off Topic section.

Thanks,
Gamma

Personally, I believe that seeing how people who claim the Gorean label respond to threads like this does reflect a Gorean perspective.

It is claimed that being Gorean affects all aspects of life, so wouldn't any topic be Gorean if discussed by Goreans? Just as any slave is a Gorean slave, if owned by a Gorean,

Everything written by a Gorean on these boards offers another insight into the beliefs and ethos of Gor. I believe topics like this, and the opportunity to see how they are replied to, give everyone one more way to learn about Goreans.



Yeah, when I buy wheat bread, or go skiing, or turn left at an intersection, or throw sticks for my dog, you can tell I'm doing it in a very Gorean way, clearly distinct from how others do this.

[8|]



PeonForHer -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/13/2013 11:16:30 AM)

Whoops, just saw Gamma's warning to keep it Gorean. I'll get me coat.



BitaTruble -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/13/2013 11:34:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss



And as might be expected members of the Caste of Scribes gather here to enter into dispute and examine and trade manuscripts.



Good point. Scribes are, naturally, going to be more interested than say someone of the low caste leather tanners who might not be able to read at all so cursive
or speaking about it wouldn't be of interest to them while someone of the Poet caste (also a low caste) might very well be interested.

I would expect a Scribe to consider that script offers something beyond beauty while a leather tanner might not consider that reading is a worthy pursuit at all
since there is no benefit of knowing script or being taught script to someone who was born to be a leather tanner. (Exceptions duly noted that one can raise and lower
a caste by personal attribute and action)



JstAnotherSub -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/13/2013 12:51:34 PM)

Lady, I fucking adore you. Seriously!



sunshinemiss -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/13/2013 5:52:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub


quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminGamma

Fast reply

Unless some effort is made to steer this topic towards a Gorean perspective, then it will be moved to the Off Topic section.

Thanks,
Gamma

Personally, I believe that seeing how people who claim the Gorean label respond to threads like this does reflect a Gorean perspective.

It is claimed that being Gorean affects all aspects of life, so wouldn't any topic be Gorean if discussed by Goreans? Just as any slave is a Gorean slave, if owned by a Gorean,

Everything written by a Gorean on these boards offers another insight into the beliefs and ethos of Gor. I believe topics like this, and the opportunity to see how they are replied to, give everyone one more way to learn about Goreans.



Yeah, when I buy wheat bread, or go skiing, or turn left at an intersection, or throw sticks for my dog, you can tell I'm doing it in a very Gorean way, clearly distinct from how others do this.

[8|]





Hello Music Mystery,
I would say that's actually correct. Are you following your principles when you do those things?

buying wheat bread and going skiing- What is your motivation? What underpins your decisions? To enjoy life? To care for your body and keep it strong? To enjoy fellowship with your friends? Those seem to me to be reasons a Gorean would do them.

turn left at an intersection - respecting the laws of the land, disobeying if dealing with an emergency, taking good care of your property... these are Gorean if I've read the books and the boards correctly.

throw sticks for my dog - sure ... giving your animal exercise, making it healthy, enjoying your time with it, NOT hitting the dog with those same sticks.

you can tell I'm doing it in a very Gorean way, clearly distinct from how others do this.

Yes, actually, I would hope so. It is in the small decisions in life that we show our mettle. It is not the big, grandiose gestures that show who we are, it is not in the words we spout off, but in the day to day decisions. Are these things only in the realm of Goreans? Of course not. Morality does not live solely in the sphere of one philosophy or another. Treating animals well, enjoying life, following the law of the land - these are also not simply Gorean as you point out. But it does beg the question... would beating your pet to death, breaking the law for no good reason, destroying your body be considered Gorean traits? If so, then I stand corrected. If not, then yes, you are doing them in a way that the philosophy of your life would lead you... and there are people in these forums who consider themselves Gorean and believe in that philosophy... and believe in LIVING that philosophy. In fact, it was my understanding that the entire point of this forum was about living the philosophy.

But if you can do anything in any fashion for any reason, isn't that Anarchy? And is that the Gorean philosophy? If not, then what the heck is "Gorean" if there is no application of the philosophy? Or is all this simply mental masturbation? I don't think it is. I think it would be surprising for many Gorean people (and most people actually) to learn that their ACTIONS are not expected to be informed by their life philosophy.

best,
sunshine

*edited to make sure that the points I'm making are "you" general and not "you" specific.




DesFIP -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/13/2013 6:08:58 PM)

My son made President's List last semester. He uses his Ipad for note taking.

My daughter graduated one of the top 15 private universities two years ago. Had she been required to use cursive, she would not have been admitted. Thankfully we have the ADA which prevents people from discriminating against students with fine motor skill problems and tremors.



Musicmystery -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/13/2013 7:04:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub


quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminGamma

Fast reply

Unless some effort is made to steer this topic towards a Gorean perspective, then it will be moved to the Off Topic section.

Thanks,
Gamma

Personally, I believe that seeing how people who claim the Gorean label respond to threads like this does reflect a Gorean perspective.

It is claimed that being Gorean affects all aspects of life, so wouldn't any topic be Gorean if discussed by Goreans? Just as any slave is a Gorean slave, if owned by a Gorean,

Everything written by a Gorean on these boards offers another insight into the beliefs and ethos of Gor. I believe topics like this, and the opportunity to see how they are replied to, give everyone one more way to learn about Goreans.



Yeah, when I buy wheat bread, or go skiing, or turn left at an intersection, or throw sticks for my dog, you can tell I'm doing it in a very Gorean way, clearly distinct from how others do this.

[8|]





Hello Music Mystery,
I would say that's actually correct. Are you following your principles when you do those things?

buying wheat bread and going skiing- What is your motivation? What underpins your decisions? To enjoy life? To care for your body and keep it strong? To enjoy fellowship with your friends? Those seem to me to be reasons a Gorean would do them.

turn left at an intersection - respecting the laws of the land, disobeying if dealing with an emergency, taking good care of your property... these are Gorean if I've read the books and the boards correctly.

throw sticks for my dog - sure ... giving your animal exercise, making it healthy, enjoying your time with it, NOT hitting the dog with those same sticks.

you can tell I'm doing it in a very Gorean way, clearly distinct from how others do this.

Yes, actually, I would hope so. It is in the small decisions in life that we show our mettle. It is not the big, grandiose gestures that show who we are, it is not in the words we spout off, but in the day to day decisions. Are these things only in the realm of Goreans? Of course not. Morality does not live solely in the sphere of one philosophy or another. Treating animals well, enjoying life, following the law of the land - these are also not simply Gorean as you point out. But it does beg the question... would beating your pet to death, breaking the law for no good reason, destroying your body be considered Gorean traits? If so, then I stand corrected. If not, then yes, you are doing them in a way that the philosophy of your life would lead you... and there are people in these forums who consider themselves Gorean and believe in that philosophy... and believe in LIVING that philosophy. In fact, it was my understanding that the entire point of this forum was about living the philosophy.

But if you can do anything in any fashion for any reason, isn't that Anarchy? And is that the Gorean philosophy? If not, then what the heck is "Gorean" if there is no application of the philosophy? Or is all this simply mental masturbation? I don't think it is. I think it would be surprising for many Gorean people (and most people actually) to learn that their ACTIONS are not expected to be informed by their life philosophy.

best,
sunshine

*edited to make sure that the points I'm making are "you" general and not "you" specific.



Well we can be sure you don't teach Logic.

To identify something as an action belonging to a particular group, the criteria is a mutually exclusive set of identifiers. I also buy bread as a musician. But I'm not sure you could tell the difference. That's because there is no relevant difference.

By your criteria, my dog is Gorean.

In fact, by your criteria, everything alive is Gorean. Yet there's a subset of living things identified as Gorean. Your criteria, then, have not yet found the identifiers.




sunshinemiss -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/13/2013 7:18:11 PM)

I was not aware that musicians had a PHILOSOPHY that they live by. It was my understanding that Goreans do.

good luck,
sunshine



FrankAr -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/13/2013 7:19:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
As an aside... I was thinking about this same question - What makes a question a "Gorean" question. A few years ago, there was a "Gorean Fantasy Football" thread. How is Football Gorean? I don't remember anything about computer football games in the books. I'm happy to be enlightened. And what else is Gorean? Word etymology andChristmas Greetings - I wasn't even aware that Christianity was the religion on Gor. I don't remember reading that in the books either. Another thing I learned is that ... Viking songs are considered Gorean. Do you think the author of that song is aware that she is creating Gorean music?

best,
sunshine

*edited for clarity


Greetings sunshine,

You are really starting to loose me as a person whom does have interest in your writings, when they have sense, a bit of humour being pushed into the ribs, and a carefree attitude. Lately however, I do not know why, you have descended downhill quite fast.

The Gorean section does have many topics within the area. You must also understand that Goreans do live in the normal world and do talk about any topic under the sun. The line that I do draw in the sand if the topic does go south with outside people trolling, everyday posters just doing their thing to express their knowledge and it is just shit. I think you know what I mean. I also think you know that you might even have a chuckle and smile with the topic and the discussion about it. It just goes south when some just become unbearable.

The topic might be of the American football, the aussie version is better and played with no pads, might be of cooking, might be of the books wanted to be read over the holidays. It does just depend upon the posters and if they can keep it as the topic should be.

This is just my thoughts and two cents worth.

Be well.

Frank Ar.




Musicmystery -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/13/2013 7:29:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

I was not aware that musicians had a PHILOSOPHY that they live by. It was my understanding that Goreans do.

good luck,
sunshine

Then you clearly don't know much about musicians either.




sunshinemiss -> RE: The Word of the Average American (12/13/2013 7:39:36 PM)

Hello Frank,
Well sure, I think this is my point (and JAS'). EVERYTHING is a Gorean topic. EVERYTHING. How the philosophy impacts day to day life, what motivates people, where are the iffy places? I make no pretense that my interest is anything but about people. I love seeing how philosophy and personal beliefs impact people. I don't care so much about studying philosophy any more (did study it in college, but it was much less interesting to me than real people... people trumped theories every time for me).

I'm not sure how you think I've gone "downhill". I don't often venture over here - I'm *not* Gorean, and I don't pretend to be. I do, however, think there are certain things people can learn from many different ways of looking at things. And I enjoy the discussions. Usually, I read but don't make a statement. However, when something falls into one of my areas of expertise (like education), I think it is a fair thing for me to make a post or two about.

What you might be seeing - not sure but could be - is that I'm attempting to match people's hyperbole. When sgs stated something about "what happens when there is no internet" (paraphrased), I matched her hyperbole with "what happens when there are no more trees" and the same with MM's point of buying bread as a musician versus as a Gorean. Rather than writing in "my" voice, I'm attempting to match theirs to make a point (evidently it's not my strong suit).

Anyway, I've made a number of points, backed up by research which are being ignored or responded to with anecdotal information. Anyone with an understanding of scientific method, would appreciate them in a personal sense but not in a TRUTH kind of way. Although there is that old nugget of there are three kinds of lies - lies, damn lies, and statistics! But in the absence of any contrary research, I'm sticking with my own. Someone says to me, "Hey, although you have research, my little corner of the world does it this other way!" I can appreciate it without accepting it as gospel for anything other than their little world.

I like people. I like life. And I like seeing how people think and what they believe and how that informs their actions. That is where my heart and mind are. I don't think that will be changing. Others have different points of view that trip their trigger. That's cool.

I appreciate your taking the time to tell me what you see.

Best,
sunshine



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