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RE: Transparency - 12/14/2013 6:53:34 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
When people stopped being honest and authentic as part of their daily interactions with others.

Being honest and authentic was never easy and never common. I see this fetish with buzzwords and slogans to be an interesting facet of the BDSM community. I am constantly tripping over buzzwords and when I find out the meaning it turns out they refer to perfectly ordinary and every day concepts. I prefer to not turn critically important concepts like "honor" into advertising slogans.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Transparency - 12/14/2013 8:18:38 AM   
KnightofMists


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Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
When people stopped being honest and authentic as part of their daily interactions with others.

Being honest and authentic was never easy and never common. I see this fetish with buzzwords and slogans to be an interesting facet of the BDSM community. I am constantly tripping over buzzwords and when I find out the meaning it turns out they refer to perfectly ordinary and every day concepts. I prefer to not turn critically important concepts like "honor" into advertising slogans.


Interestingly, I find those that have those things.. Like honesty or honor or other terms referenced as buzzwords don't treat them or use them as buzzwords or advertising slogans. But I think diminishing or distancing oneself from these so called buzzwords only allows those that use them as such to be the only speakers or examples of these concepts.

I believe it is important that those who live these concepts stand up and be seen. Speak of them when necessary and most importantly let their actions be consistent with those words. Those that tend to use them as buzzwords will tend to stand out when their actions are compared to their words and definitely not in a positive way. Sad for those that don't take the time to see the difference between those that live it and those that advertise it and joy for those that do.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 12/14/2013 8:19:00 AM >

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Transparency - 12/14/2013 8:23:34 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I don't think that being honest and authentic with the general public is appropriate. When I went through the grocery line and the cashier asked how I was doing, the appropriate answer is 'fine thanks and you', not to actually state that the oncoming storm is making my arthritis act up.

Time and place for everything.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Transparency - 12/14/2013 8:51:02 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
...the appropriate answer is 'fine thanks and you', not to actually state that the oncoming storm is making my arthritis act up.

Time and place for everything.

I would take the latter reply and follow by complaining that the line was too long and making it much worse than it need be because they didn't have enough cashiers working to keep the lines shorter.

As you can guess, I'm not one of the PC brigade.
Ask a stupid question.... get a stupid answer!

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Transparency - 12/14/2013 10:43:55 AM   
DanielleofMists


Posts: 57
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		Since when did "how are you doing?" become a stupid question? This example from a cashier seems more along the lines of customer service and being friendly than a stupid question.

I do agree with DesFIP, it is time and place but more so who gets what information. I don't think anyone in this thread was advocating to reveal your life history to complete strangers.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Transparency - 12/14/2013 7:33:42 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		"How are you doing?"

Depends on my mood. If I'm trying to get through the line quickly and don't feel like talking then it's "Fine, thanks".

If I'm in the mood to talk or make small talk or the cashier looks like she/he could use a good laugh, I'll say something like "would be better if the storm wasn't heading this way" or "the store's crowded tonight because of the coming storm. I bet you've had a long day!".

So yeah....it depends..like always.


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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Transparency - 12/15/2013 3:19:16 AM   
BecomingV


Posts: 916
Joined: 11/11/2013
Status: offline 		Transparency... I was taught to never do anything that I wouldn't do with the whole world watching. It was a way of saying, "Be mindful of your conscience." In later years, I was educated in a place that used the honor system, which by then, felt quite natural. I stand by my words and deeds, including mistakes with both.

Even so...

Privacy... My friends are family of my heart. Any relationship I enter, platonic or sexually committed, involves an acceptance that:
1) there is a spiritual core in me that no one but me reaches
2) there is a shared spiritual space I share with each individual whom I love and no one but "us" can enter that space. Confidences are safe.

The expectations of a slave/property owner appear to be at odds with my values, needs and choices.

On a practical note, my personal experience with slaves in the lifestyle have been disillusioning. Without exception, they all admitted to deceiving their masters/owners, a little bit. Context - I mean attempting to befriend other women who are slaves, not slaves of mine. Their reasoning was heartfelt. They understood the deep need for control in their masters/owners and did not want to break the fantasy. They were also aware that should they really be transparent, the relationship would end. Because the expectation of total transparency is not possible to meet, they did what they could to bolster the ego and negate the fears of the masters/owners. (I could not befriend them because of the deceit.)

Also, I like mystery. The idea that anyone can be totally known... what is that? Long after people die, we still learn new things about them. Certainly, while they are living and growing, as complex humans in a complex world, there is always so much more to be revealed. I guess transparency has a connotation of totality in it. That makes it beyond humanly possible and just a fantasy. 98% transparent - sure, I could believe that.

LadyPact and ChatteParfaitte also expressed my sentiments.

< Message edited by BecomingV -- 12/15/2013 3:31:46 AM >

_____________________________

Talk about loving travel!!! My BDSM journey to Switch took me to these places...
Previously known as:
sub - TwoHeartsBeatOne
Domme - Lady Q

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Transparency - 12/15/2013 3:54:21 AM   
BecomingV


Posts: 916
Joined: 11/11/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins
I ask for total honesty because no matter how bad the truth is, it's easier on me than the lie you think telling me will be. the truth would also earn the trust, harsh as it is because at least it is the truth. in reality the lie is only easier on the liar. it takes courage to tell the truth in the worst of times.
needles


The bold above is mine.

I strongly disagree with that idea. I think that we've all been lied to and we've all been deceived. It hurts, it offends and it can even change a life.

Liars, even if never caught, have dire consequences. First, they think that other people are lying to them, when they aren't. Liars are rejecting reality, so they are at odds with life and with people. Liars create a wall of deceit which keeps others at bay, so they don't get to feel the intimacy and connection that honest folk enjoy. Liars have to maintain the lies, so they lose the free time and light energy that honest folk enjoy. Liars aren't living openly in the world, so even if people love them, they know that it's a facade that's loved, and not really them. Liars lack power in the world because a lie is an artificial construct, so they've stolen from themselves any chance of being significant.

As you see, I feel strongly that being a liar is like self-imprisonment or a living hell or some such horror. I think the notion that lying is easy for the liar is a commonly held belief, and a costly one. It's the death of good character, it weakens the spirit and isolates the person.

I stress this point in a thread about transparency because issues of control and demand must be understood. There's a balance of personal responsibility and giving freely of the self that gets eradicated when the environment does not support human imperfection. Sometimes people lie when they feel their best, albeit limited, efforts will be rejected.


_____________________________

Talk about loving travel!!! My BDSM journey to Switch took me to these places...
Previously known as:
sub - TwoHeartsBeatOne
Domme - Lady Q

(in reply to needlesandpins)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Transparency - 12/15/2013 4:02:06 AM   
BecomingV


Posts: 916
Joined: 11/11/2013
Status: offline 		Just to clarify... I'm not saying that all slaves/masters are deceitful. I am saying they are all imperfect and human.

< Message edited by BecomingV -- 12/15/2013 4:06:16 AM >

_____________________________

Talk about loving travel!!! My BDSM journey to Switch took me to these places...
Previously known as:
sub - TwoHeartsBeatOne
Domme - Lady Q

(in reply to BecomingV)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Transparency - 12/15/2013 10:46:14 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DanielleofMists

..... I don't think anyone in this thread was advocating to reveal your life history to complete strangers.


Come now... We both know that you enjoyed the cashier telling you all about her husband boil issue. ;)

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to DanielleofMists)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Transparency - 12/16/2013 6:24:35 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		There's also time and place in an intimate relationship. The appropriate time to bring up a problem I have is not when he's in the middle of his bowling league. Or driving in snow.

And as I've said before, if your response to an unpleasant honest criticism is to shoot the messenger, then don't expect the messenger to volunteer to stand up before the firing squad in the future. Honesty requires being receptive to it, being in control and validating the other person. If your response is that the best defense is a good offense, then expect to be lied to.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Transparency - 12/19/2013 8:28:52 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I complete disagree with this statement. Privacy is not an option in my family and never will be.


You must have remarkable abilities. I'm kind of going through a down period, and I'll admit to being thrilled for just about any connection I can make to another person. People have walls up everywhere. The exercise of freedom or adventure seem limited to me --- and combined the attention people devote to the internet, has the man and woman on street consumed, opaque, and closed.... . It's a code hard to crack.

Some have looked to privacy as a contrast to transparency, and I would hold up "isolation" and "loneliness" as other contrasts as well -- one's not particularly chosen.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Transparency - 12/19/2013 9:32:13 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		Fast Reply

Transparency is the lack of privacy, yes, because this is just me, the only reason why I need privacy is because there is something I am deeply afraid I'd be harshly judged for, or that I am afraid that I will lose him if he knew, that's why I need privacy for that thingy. So what transparency means to me is really just total and absolute trust in someone to never feel like you need privacy away from him and hope he feels the same.

In my past marriage, I had passwords into my x-husband's every single chat account, facebook, emails, his bank accounts, everything was transparent, and he had the same for mine. We knew each other's phone unlock passwords too, like nothing was sacred, nothing hidden in the closet, nothing to hide. But because he was so open with everything and trusted me so much, I never ever looked or bothered to look. But there is some kind of crazy safe zone that I feel I am in, when someone is that transparent with you. To be super transparent with someone, you gotta feel like 200% safe with that person for like everything.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/19/2013 9:33:39 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Transparency - 12/19/2013 9:38:09 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		That's not going to replace trust. Anyone can just open an additional (secret from the partner) account.


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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Transparency - 12/19/2013 9:43:09 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
That's not going to replace trust. Anyone can just open an additional (secret from the partner) account.

It was a little difficult frankly, we had no "alone time" from each other. It was a crazy relationship frankly. But back then we were inseparable for 9 years. Because we wake up together, have breakfast together, go to work together, work together, have lunch together, work somemore together, go home, have dinner together, watch TV together, sleep together, and then later weekends, we do everything from morning to night together. We had the same hobbies, same interests, we shared everything in common, there is nothing he likes that I don't like and nothing I like that he don't like, well, except bdsm, but when I married him, I made a choice to give up bdsm. So yea, transparency was like 100%. It was why we clicked, because his like the male version of me, minus the interest in bdsm.


< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/19/2013 9:44:35 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Transparency - 12/19/2013 10:47:31 AM   
needlesandpins


Posts: 3901
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins
I ask for total honesty because no matter how bad the truth is, it's easier on me than the lie you think telling me will be. the truth would also earn the trust, harsh as it is because at least it is the truth. in reality the lie is only easier on the liar. it takes courage to tell the truth in the worst of times.
needles


The bold above is mine.

I strongly disagree with that idea. I think that we've all been lied to and we've all been deceived. It hurts, it offends and it can even change a life.

Liars, even if never caught, have dire consequences. First, they think that other people are lying to them, when they aren't. Liars are rejecting reality, so they are at odds with life and with people. Liars create a wall of deceit which keeps others at bay, so they don't get to feel the intimacy and connection that honest folk enjoy. Liars have to maintain the lies, so they lose the free time and light energy that honest folk enjoy. Liars aren't living openly in the world, so even if people love them, they know that it's a facade that's loved, and not really them. Liars lack power in the world because a lie is an artificial construct, so they've stolen from themselves any chance of being significant.

As you see, I feel strongly that being a liar is like self-imprisonment or a living hell or some such horror. I think the notion that lying is easy for the liar is a commonly held belief, and a costly one. It's the death of good character, it weakens the spirit and isolates the person.

I stress this point in a thread about transparency because issues of control and demand must be understood. There's a balance of personal responsibility and giving freely of the self that gets eradicated when the environment does not support human imperfection. Sometimes people lie when they feel their best, albeit limited, efforts will be rejected.



people aren't perfect, myself included. however, what I have learnt from my mistakes is that nothing justifies the lies. most certainly not for the other person, but not for myself either. The person I lied to wasn't actually worth how shit it made me feel to go against my own honour and integrity. he certainly had earned what I did, and more besides, but I didn't deserve to have myself feel like I still do so many years after it all. it would have been easier for me to tell him the truth, but he didn't want that, and wouldn't allow it. I despise him for it. that's the only way I see lying as not being easier on the liar.

for the rest you are assuming that the person doing the lying cares in the first place. i'm sorry to say that I don't think they do. you don't lie to people that mean something to you. you don't lie to people knowing that those lies will tear them apart. you especially don't do that to someone that is supposed to mean something to you when you have given them your word. You don't do it for a cheap fuck.

it takes nothing to be honest and stick to your word if the person means something to you.

needles


_____________________________

I deserved better. Not than you, but from you.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Transparency - 12/19/2013 10:53:29 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

you don't lie to people knowing that those lies will tear them apart. you especially don't do that to someone that is supposed to mean something to you when you have given them your word. You don't do it for a cheap fuck.

I think most people lie out of fear and some can lie out of caring too. For example, a friend of mine had stage 4 cancer, he confine in me, and he said his wife and children do not know, and he does not want them to find out until it's too late to cover up anything. Because he does not want them to worry or panic unnecessarily for him. He said he knows his wife will freak out. I know when his wife finds out too late, she's gonna be soooo super pissed, but he has made his decision, and in his mind, his protecting his wife for as long as he can.

(in reply to needlesandpins)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Transparency - 12/19/2013 12:33:04 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		I'm sure glad I don't live a type of life where I have to hide things and lie to my family like your friend.
That in itself would kill me.
As needles said, nothing justifies the lies.... ever.


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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Transparency - 12/19/2013 1:08:51 PM   
needlesandpins


Posts: 3901
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

you don't lie to people knowing that those lies will tear them apart. you especially don't do that to someone that is supposed to mean something to you when you have given them your word. You don't do it for a cheap fuck.

I think most people lie out of fear and some can lie out of caring too. For example, a friend of mine had stage 4 cancer, he confine in me, and he said his wife and children do not know, and he does not want them to find out until it's too late to cover up anything. Because he does not want them to worry or panic unnecessarily for him. He said he knows his wife will freak out. I know when his wife finds out too late, she's gonna be soooo super pissed, but he has made his decision, and in his mind, his protecting his wife for as long as he can.


there is so very much wrong with that that I can't even start to explain why it's so wrong.

top tip to really ill people; don't be so self centred, and so damn selfish unless you know that is how your family want it. you get to die and that is that, but you leave behind a load of people forever asking themselves questions. don't project on to them what you think is best for them to deal with. try talking to them first, because that bullshit above is the fucking living pits to go through.

needles

_____________________________

I deserved better. Not than you, but from you.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Transparency - 12/19/2013 7:01:18 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DanielleofMists
Since when did "how are you doing?" become a stupid question? This example from a cashier seems more along the lines of customer service and being friendly than a stupid question.


Don't you guys get like damn irritated being asked by everybody everyday, "How are you doing?"

Gosh, fortunately it's not my culture to ask that question, but I have worked with Americans and it drove me mad, every day, the same question, "How are you doing?", at work! Like I don't want to be asked how am I doing every single day by the same person! Of course I am polite and gave fake smile and say, "Fine, Thank you! And you?" But I'd be rolling my eyes in my head thinking it's such a fake question, like they really care how I am doing, that's why I hate it.

A simple, "Morning" or "Good Morning", or even a smile with a "Hi" will do.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/19/2013 7:03:12 PM >

(in reply to DanielleofMists)
Profile   Post #: 60
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