quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
I personally, am not in favor of police at schools, or arming teachers.
I think its an irrational over reaction.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

I am by no means saying that affluent is universal, nor did I list it earlier as a mitigating factor in school violence. However it is a fact that private schools charge and they are usually not cheap so that does leave out certain people. BTW- the Catholic School where you live charges over $7000 a year tuition for a high school student. I only mentioned the Catholic school specifically because the other poster said that Catholic schools were diverse and did not turn down students for not being able to pay. Yes, they do. And it has been my experience that most non-Catholic schools charge even more than the Catholic ones. Many of them have to because they don't have the historical foundation in place that Catholic Schools (that have been around for years) have. Believe me, if I could get my daughter into any private school for 2000 dollars a year she would be there because the public schools here are crap.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

That may be true where you live. Where I live I specifically went to the Annunciation Catholic School in my area to try to find out rates hoping to get my daughter in. For starters they have a priority list for letting in students. If you were non catholic you were last on that list. Their tuition was $4900 a year, plus 200 registration, plus almost 600 dollars in fees (books, lab, etc.) plus 4 dollars a day for lunch which on a 180 day school year equals to an additional 720 dollars a year. I inquired about discounts and was told they had "payment plans" and a discount for Catholics. The application they gave me said in writing that the Principal had to conduct a family interview to decide whether or not the child would be accepted. So the vast majority of the students that go to the Catholic School (at least in my area) are Catholic, white and at least well off enough to afford a minimum of an extra 535 dollars a month/ 6400 dollars a year. So yeah....that is pretty selective.
Incidentally I just could not afford to send my daughter there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:


Maybe it is because private schools can be very selective over who they let in.

I've often seen this myth bandied about as the reason.

As a person that went through private school through highschool; as a person who helped set up a private school; as a person who worked on a scholarship board; and who worked for a private school for juvenile delinquents that had committed felonies as severe as multiple murders


I can tell you that I have never met a Catholic school that turned away anyone for inability to pay, or for not being catholic.

I can tell you of classes where half my classmates were jewish - because they wanted a good education for their children.

One thing that was required was committment by the parents. They had to work a certain numbers of hours at the school. Had to uphold an honor code - and sign a contract of what they were expected to do - and hold their children to do.

And that private school that took felonious juvenile delinquents had the lowest recividism rate in the state.

But rather than attempt to duplicate a morals based education - we'd rather hue to the liberal bias and just claim it was selection bias.

My sons private school was around 2000, a teacher talked to him, not the family, they did not have the priority system you describe and they like manywere not Catholic..
Affluent may be an apt description where you live but it is not by any means universal.
An absence of violence, on the other hand is virtually universal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

--FR--

There seems to be some discussion as to why shootings don't take place in private schools, so I did a quick search for shootings that took place in private schools in recent years, and came up with these in less than 10 minutes. The ones I found took place in various grade levels up to, and including private college. I didn't include one that took place on a private school bus.


http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11662481-school-shooting-murdersuicide-at-florida-private-school

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/04/03/11003360-oikos-university-shooting-private-christian-school-catered-to-koreans?lite

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/amish.shooting/index.html

http://articles.latimes.com/1987-02-15/local/me-3520_1_private-orme-school

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93650&page=1

http://bradley.chattablogs.com/archives/2006/09/school-shooting-at-westminster-christian-academy.html

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/story/23614924/two-teens-shot-at-private-school-near-orlando


Just as a point of interest, July 26, 1764 was the earliest known school shooting in the U.S...even though it wasn't really the U.S. at that time. Here is what seems to be a fairly complete list of various shootings at U.S. schools over the years. The list includes suicides, accidents, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#1760s

One thing I found of interest was the first listing in the 1880's section, and thought it seemed very similar to young kids fascination with things like gangster rap, etc. today.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
I personally, am not in favor of police at schools, or arming teachers.
I think its an irrational over reaction.

You suggest that removing gun free designations from schools is a good idea but what's the point if no one in the school is armed ? I suppose if you look at gun violence statistics vs school gun violence and the total number of schools to protect, it may seem like an overreaction. But ya don't have to be a liberal to know, at one school or another and at some point in time, an insane idiot is going to to come in with his gun and shoot the place up. If a particular school district wants armed teachers or security personnel, I'm all for it. I understand there is a cost that comes with freedom but why not default on the payment, exercise our 2nd amendment right and blow these idiots out of their socks ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

And once again, lies to derail.


I didn't ridicule, and went to great lengths to explain that I wasn't ridiculing. Then I laid out the worst case scenarios, using factual elements involved in such an undertaking, and asked where the time and money would come from.
Rational questions that make the difference between concerned people analyzing a problem and trolls trying to win a debate.
Rational questions that once again, go unanswered by you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


You live in the South, I am sure there were good, less expensive private schools available.
I know the myth about non catholic private schools in the south but it too is untrue, about 15% of my sons school was black.

The Catholic School here IS the less expensive private school. And they have nothing against blacks they just have a high tuition that many people in the poorest state in the union (many black people in particular) cannot afford.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I probably shouldn't bite on this but.. what the hell.

I don't agree with your assessment that you weren't ridiculing. But for the sake of argument - exactly what rational questions did you ask me?

I'm not in favor of gun control. I don't think any action is possible that will solve the fatalities. I said as much.

Saying "there is no solution" - isn't trying to derail the conversations

Finally, I haven't heard any suggestions from you to fix the problem to debate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

And once again, lies to derail.


I didn't ridicule, and went to great lengths to explain that I wasn't ridiculing. Then I laid out the worst case scenarios, using factual elements involved in such an undertaking, and asked where the time and money would come from.
Rational questions that make the difference between concerned people analyzing a problem and trolls trying to win a debate.
Rational questions that once again, go unanswered by you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

--FR--

There seems to be some discussion as to why shootings don't take place in private schools, so I did a quick search for shootings that took place in private schools in recent years, and came up with these in less than 10 minutes. The ones I found took place in various grade levels up to, and including private college. I didn't include one that took place on a private school bus.


http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11662481-school-shooting-murdersuicide-at-florida-private-school

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/04/03/11003360-oikos-university-shooting-private-christian-school-catered-to-koreans?lite

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/amish.shooting/index.html

http://articles.latimes.com/1987-02-15/local/me-3520_1_private-orme-school

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93650&page=1

http://bradley.chattablogs.com/archives/2006/09/school-shooting-at-westminster-christian-academy.html

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/story/23614924/two-teens-shot-at-private-school-near-orlando


Just as a point of interest, July 26, 1764 was the earliest known school shooting in the U.S...even though it wasn't really the U.S. at that time. Here is what seems to be a fairly complete list of various shootings at U.S. schools over the years. The list includes suicides, accidents, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#1760s

One thing I found of interest was the first listing in the 1880's section, and thought it seemed very similar to young kids fascination with things like gangster rap, etc. today.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

I am by no means saying that affluent is universal, nor did I list it earlier as a mitigating factor in school violence. However it is a fact that private schools charge and they are usually not cheap so that does leave out certain people. BTW- the Catholic School where you live charges over $7000 a year tuition for a high school student. I only mentioned the Catholic school specifically because the other poster said that Catholic schools were diverse and did not turn down students for not being able to pay. Yes, they do. And it has been my experience that most non-Catholic schools charge even more than the Catholic ones. Many of them have to because they don't have the historical foundation in place that Catholic Schools (that have been around for years) have. Believe me, if I could get my daughter into any private school for 2000 dollars a year she would be there because the public schools here are crap.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

That may be true where you live. Where I live I specifically went to the Annunciation Catholic School in my area to try to find out rates hoping to get my daughter in. For starters they have a priority list for letting in students. If you were non catholic you were last on that list. Their tuition was $4900 a year, plus 200 registration, plus almost 600 dollars in fees (books, lab, etc.) plus 4 dollars a day for lunch which on a 180 day school year equals to an additional 720 dollars a year. I inquired about discounts and was told they had "payment plans" and a discount for Catholics. The application they gave me said in writing that the Principal had to conduct a family interview to decide whether or not the child would be accepted. So the vast majority of the students that go to the Catholic School (at least in my area) are Catholic, white and at least well off enough to afford a minimum of an extra 535 dollars a month/ 6400 dollars a year. So yeah....that is pretty selective.
Incidentally I just could not afford to send my daughter there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:


Maybe it is because private schools can be very selective over who they let in.

I've often seen this myth bandied about as the reason.

As a person that went through private school through highschool; as a person who helped set up a private school; as a person who worked on a scholarship board; and who worked for a private school for juvenile delinquents that had committed felonies as severe as multiple murders


I can tell you that I have never met a Catholic school that turned away anyone for inability to pay, or for not being catholic.

I can tell you of classes where half my classmates were jewish - because they wanted a good education for their children.

One thing that was required was committment by the parents. They had to work a certain numbers of hours at the school. Had to uphold an honor code - and sign a contract of what they were expected to do - and hold their children to do.

And that private school that took felonious juvenile delinquents had the lowest recividism rate in the state.

But rather than attempt to duplicate a morals based education - we'd rather hue to the liberal bias and just claim it was selection bias.

My sons private school was around 2000, a teacher talked to him, not the family, they did not have the priority system you describe and they like manywere not Catholic..
Affluent may be an apt description where you live but it is not by any means universal.
An absence of violence, on the other hand is virtually universal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


You live in the South, I am sure there were good, less expensive private schools available.
I know the myth about non catholic private schools in the south but it too is untrue, about 15% of my sons school was black.

The Catholic School here IS the less expensive private school. And they have nothing against blacks they just have a high tuition that many people in the poorest state in the union (many black people in particular) cannot afford.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

You 'haven't heard' because you've got your fingers stuck in your ears.

And I'll waste my time with one last question.

If there are no solutions to even minimize the problem, why do you try so hard to argue against discussions where solutions are considered possible?
It isn't like anyone wins if more kids die.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I probably shouldn't bite on this but.. what the hell.

I don't agree with your assessment that you weren't ridiculing. But for the sake of argument - exactly what rational questions did you ask me?

I'm not in favor of gun control. I don't think any action is possible that will solve the fatalities. I said as much.

Saying "there is no solution" - isn't trying to derail the conversations

Finally, I haven't heard any suggestions from you to fix the problem to debate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

And once again, lies to derail.


I didn't ridicule, and went to great lengths to explain that I wasn't ridiculing. Then I laid out the worst case scenarios, using factual elements involved in such an undertaking, and asked where the time and money would come from.
Rational questions that make the difference between concerned people analyzing a problem and trolls trying to win a debate.
Rational questions that once again, go unanswered by you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


You live in the South, I am sure there were good, less expensive private schools available.
I know the myth about non catholic private schools in the south but it too is untrue, about 15% of my sons school was black.

The Catholic School here IS the less expensive private school. And they have nothing against blacks they just have a high tuition that many people in the poorest state in the union (many black people in particular) cannot afford.

I see that there are bad storms in your area hope you weather them well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


a). To argue that gun control restrictions are not politically possible; and are ineffective is not the same as arguing against a discussion.

b). Just as you wish to state the downside of arming teaches; I am equally free to point to the downside or hypocrisy of gun control solutions.

c). I still have not heard what your constructive proposal to solve the problem is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

You 'haven't heard' because you've got your fingers stuck in your ears.

And I'll waste my time with one last question.

If there are no solutions to even minimize the problem, why do you try so hard to argue against discussions where solutions are considered possible?
It isn't like anyone wins if more kids die.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I probably shouldn't bite on this but.. what the hell.

I don't agree with your assessment that you weren't ridiculing. But for the sake of argument - exactly what rational questions did you ask me?

I'm not in favor of gun control. I don't think any action is possible that will solve the fatalities. I said as much.

Saying "there is no solution" - isn't trying to derail the conversations

Finally, I haven't heard any suggestions from you to fix the problem to debate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

And once again, lies to derail.


I didn't ridicule, and went to great lengths to explain that I wasn't ridiculing. Then I laid out the worst case scenarios, using factual elements involved in such an undertaking, and asked where the time and money would come from.
Rational questions that make the difference between concerned people analyzing a problem and trolls trying to win a debate.
Rational questions that once again, go unanswered by you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


You live in the South, I am sure there were good, less expensive private schools available.
I know the myth about non catholic private schools in the south but it too is untrue, about 15% of my sons school was black.

The Catholic School here IS the less expensive private school. And they have nothing against blacks they just have a high tuition that many people in the poorest state in the union (many black people in particular) cannot afford.

I see that there are bad storms in your area hope you weather them well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

a). I've never advocated blanket 'gun control restrictions', I've asked people to describe them so I can develop an informed opinion.

b). So am I... as soon as someone explains which 'gun control solutions' they are proposing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
I personally, am not in favor of police at schools, or arming teachers.
I think its an irrational over reaction.

You suggest that removing gun free designations from schools is a good idea but what's the point if no one in the school is armed ? I suppose if you look at gun violence statistics vs school gun violence and the total number of schools to protect, it may seem like an overreaction. But ya don't have to be a liberal to know, at one school or another and at some point in time, an insane idiot is going to to come in with his gun and shoot the place up. If a particular school district wants armed teachers or security personnel, I'm all for it. I understand there is a cost that comes with freedom but why not default on the payment, exercise our 2nd amendment right and blow these idiots out of their socks ?

I'm also not significantly opposed. Look, there are tens of thousands of schools across the US - and guns are an incident only in a handful of cases.

personally, I think the money could be better spent on other things. But I understand where people feel they are doing everything they can to keep children safe.

Im not in favor of ineffective policy - either on the left, or the right.
But I'd go along.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

You're probably right about spending the money. If we dropped the gun free zones designations and just let school employees who have permits carry, there wouldn't be any additional costs. However if this is adopted by most schools, I'm sure some Zimmerman type of fuck up would eventually happen though certainly nothing to the extent of 30 teachers running around waving guns.

Now I'm curious what the history has been with the 3 states and parts of Texas that have been allowing concealed carry in their schools. I believe Utah has recently approved it and it's under consideration in other states.