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I just think a federal requirement in all states for ownership is important.

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

The shooting event which prompted this particular discussion was carried out by someone armed with a manual action shotgun, molotov cocktails, and a machete. What does a semi-auto ban have to do with anything?

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ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Why do you think that 20 - 30 is an unreasonable number to have carry permits?

I'm not envisioning the little red schoolhouse, I'm talking about a school of 1,000 or more kids, and a hundred or more employees.

As far as track record, I only know that Arkansas passed such a law, and most schools in that state opted out on a faculty vote.

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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

You're probably right about spending the money. If we dropped the gun free zones designations and just let school employees who have permits carry, there wouldn't be any additional costs. However if this is adopted by most schools, I'm sure some Zimmerman type of fuck up would eventually happen though certainly nothing to the extent of 30 teachers running around waving guns.

Now I'm curious what the history has been with the 3 states and parts of Texas that have been allowing concealed carry in their schools. I believe Utah has recently approved it and it's under consideration in other states.

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Why do you think that 20 - 30 is an unreasonable number to have carry permits?

I'm not envisioning the little red schoolhouse, I'm talking about a school of 1,000 or more kids, and a hundred or more employees.

As far as track record, I only know that Arkansas passed such a law, and most schools in that state opted out on a faculty vote.

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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

You're probably right about spending the money. If we dropped the gun free zones designations and just let school employees who have permits carry, there wouldn't be any additional costs. However if this is adopted by most schools, I'm sure some Zimmerman type of fuck up would eventually happen though certainly nothing to the extent of 30 teachers running around waving guns.

Now I'm curious what the history has been with the 3 states and parts of Texas that have been allowing concealed carry in their schools. I believe Utah has recently approved it and it's under consideration in other states.

Statistically with 100 teachers no more than 4 or 5 would be expected to have permits.
When you consider that educators tend to be liberal it could be even less.

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ORIGINAL: EdBowie

And for every hundred teachers, how many coaches, bus drivers, maintenance people, clerical staff, and so on?

The worst case scenario is still undesirable with even a handful of untrained people, especially the very people who would think that their 16 hours CCW class equipped the to be effective is n active shooter situation.

Part of the overall US gun culture is a widespread belief that all American males are born experts at driving, lovemaking, holding their liquor, and conquering evil in a crisis...

Reality disagrees.

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Why do you think that 20 - 30 is an unreasonable number to have carry permits?

I'm not envisioning the little red schoolhouse, I'm talking about a school of 1,000 or more kids, and a hundred or more employees.

As far as track record, I only know that Arkansas passed such a law, and most schools in that state opted out on a faculty vote.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

You're probably right about spending the money. If we dropped the gun free zones designations and just let school employees who have permits carry, there wouldn't be any additional costs. However if this is adopted by most schools, I'm sure some Zimmerman type of fuck up would eventually happen though certainly nothing to the extent of 30 teachers running around waving guns.

Now I'm curious what the history has been with the 3 states and parts of Texas that have been allowing concealed carry in their schools. I believe Utah has recently approved it and it's under consideration in other states.

Statistically with 100 teachers no more than 4 or 5 would be expected to have permits.
When you consider that educators tend to be liberal it could be even less.

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

And for every hundred teachers, how many coaches, bus drivers, maintenance people, clerical staff, and so on?

The worst case scenario is still undesirable with even a handful of untrained people, especially the very people who would think that their 16 hours CCW class equipped the to be effective is n active shooter situation.

Part of the overall US gun culture is a widespread belief that all American males are born experts at driving, lovemaking, holding their liquor, and conquering evil in a crisis...

Reality disagrees.

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Why do you think that 20 - 30 is an unreasonable number to have carry permits?

I'm not envisioning the little red schoolhouse, I'm talking about a school of 1,000 or more kids, and a hundred or more employees.

As far as track record, I only know that Arkansas passed such a law, and most schools in that state opted out on a faculty vote.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

You're probably right about spending the money. If we dropped the gun free zones designations and just let school employees who have permits carry, there wouldn't be any additional costs. However if this is adopted by most schools, I'm sure some Zimmerman type of fuck up would eventually happen though certainly nothing to the extent of 30 teachers running around waving guns.

Now I'm curious what the history has been with the 3 states and parts of Texas that have been allowing concealed carry in their schools. I believe Utah has recently approved it and it's under consideration in other states.

Statistically with 100 teachers no more than 4 or 5 would be expected to have permits.
When you consider that educators tend to be liberal it could be even less.

For starters with 1000 students you would have not more than 40 teachers, to be generous 1 dozen more for clerical and maintenance , bus drivers don't count.
That gives us 52 people. Only about 5% of people get permits so you have maybe 3.

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ORIGINAL:

Part of the overall US gun culture is a widespread belief that all American males are born experts at driving, lovemaking, holding their liquor, and conquering evil in a crisis...

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Statistically with 100 teachers no more than 4 or 5 would be expected to have permits.

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ORIGINAL: EdBowie

And none of that addresses the fact that even a smaller pool of armed people with only CCW training, are more dangerous to everyone else during an active shooter situation.

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ORIGINAL: EdBowie

For the 3rd time, that was brought up in the context of American spree shootings of the type currently making headlines, not all shootings, ever. I haven't made the absolute claim that no one has ever been shot on a private campus, I'm examining the large difference in frequency.

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ORIGINAL: igor2003


The arguments to which I was responding, both pro and con, were based around whether private schools were safer and whether private schools do or do not suffer from shootings. I was simply pointing out that shootings do occur at private schools. Kids, teachers, parents, etc. all still do get disgruntled at private schools, just like public school, and sometimes do turn to guns as a means of expressing their ire. As EdBowie tries to argue in his response to my post, private schools, so far, for the most part have not suffered from "spree" killings, though as in the case of Oikos, with, I believe, 7 dead, even private schools have that problem too. Just because there haven't been "a lot" of spree killings at private schools is probably just a matter of numbers as much as anything else. There are many more public schools, with many more students, teachers, and families involved, making them much more likely to have been the site for any shootings, including spree killings. As far as private schools being "safe" from shootings...that, to me, appears to be a myth.

So...in response to BamaD...there are fewer shootings at private schools, but I think in large part that is simply because there are not nearly as many people involved.

And in response to EdBowie...Private schools do have spree shootings, as shown by Oikos. There may be others. What I provided was the results of a very quick search, and is in no way presented as a complete list. I'm relatively certain that more examples might be found if a person wanted to take the time to look for them.

For anyone to say that my short list "proves" anyone's point (other than to show that private school shootings do exist) is ridiculous.

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ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Zimmerman didn't attack a school.

And I don't know when the last time you were inside a school, but they also have employees like bus drivers, maintenance and janitorial crew, lunch room and clerical staff.... I highly doubt these people are 8-1 anti-gun.

In any case, the untrained CCW holder shooting the wrong person worst case scenario would hold true with even a small number .

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Teachers at the college level break 8-1 democrat. At the highschool level its not as bad - in the neighborhood of 4:1.
Most teachers are women.

The demographics are such that even in a school of 50-100 teachers you will have probably at most 2-3 people with permits. Mostly in rural areas, or women that have been victimized before. I just do not see a situation occurring where you will have 20-30, unless you are paying for guards - and no school district can afford that much per school anyway.

This is why even in when they vote mandatory carry, most schools opt out.

Regarding the zimmerman kind of fuck up.
If you wanted to mandate that schools were concealed carry - it might work. It would lower the chance of random zimmerman types attacking.

But I don't think it solves the fact that the biggest cause of this kind of violence is student -on - student bullying or violence.

Which more or less I think occurs because we take juvenile delinquents and force them into school. Hard to expect them to become angels.

My proposed solution:

A). Carry law - as above.
B). Small juvie schools oriented around vocational training. Wood, Metal shop etc.
C). Better screening.

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ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Why do you think that 20 - 30 is an unreasonable number to have carry permits?

I'm not envisioning the little red schoolhouse, I'm talking about a school of 1,000 or more kids, and a hundred or more employees.

As far as track record, I only know that Arkansas passed such a law, and most schools in that state opted out on a faculty vote.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

You're probably right about spending the money. If we dropped the gun free zones designations and just let school employees who have permits carry, there wouldn't be any additional costs. However if this is adopted by most schools, I'm sure some Zimmerman type of fuck up would eventually happen though certainly nothing to the extent of 30 teachers running around waving guns.

Now I'm curious what the history has been with the 3 states and parts of Texas that have been allowing concealed carry in their schools. I believe Utah has recently approved it and it's under consideration in other states.

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The only way the officer(s) will know who the shooter is, is the fact that the shooter is in civilian clothes and has a gun. They have no other means of identifying him or her. That means if a teacher or principal is walking through the building with a gun when a school shooting is in progress, he or she will most likely get shot by the police. And given the situation, if a teacher or principal shoots at the active shooter, they have just as much chance of hitting an innocent student as they have of hitting the active shooter.

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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

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The only way the officer(s) will know who the shooter is, is the fact that the shooter is in civilian clothes and has a gun. They have no other means of identifying him or her. That means if a teacher or principal is walking through the building with a gun when a school shooting is in progress, he or she will most likely get shot by the police. And given the situation, if a teacher or principal shoots at the active shooter, they have just as much chance of hitting an innocent student as they have of hitting the active shooter.

This is also a problem for detectives and, especially, for those undercover officers who cannot/do not carry shields. They can be anywhere at any time...
Officers responding to a school shooting should, however, know that their school district allows armed teachers and that they may encounter armed Good Samaritans.
It does complicate the situation; there's no getting around that, but there are ways to ameliorate it. Having officers meet faculty, etc....

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How many of them are going to want to assume that level of risk as a "natural consequence" of their jobs? Maybe some will, but it is really a lot to ask of someone whose job is an educator.

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Is it therefore OK to give a mental health exam to a woman that wants an abortion?

I mean its the same standard, no? Both the gun owner and the person seeking an abortion want to engage in a constitutionally protected activity.

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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

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How many of them are going to want to assume that level of risk as a "natural consequence" of their jobs? Maybe some will, but it is really a lot to ask of someone whose job is an educator.

AFAIK, the discussion is not about asking anyone to assume any risk whatsoever; rather it is about allowing those who wish to assume that risk to do so legally.

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ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

No matter how I worded it, it doesn't change the fact that it is a very high level of risk for a non-law enforcement employee to assume as part of their job.

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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

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How many of them are going to want to assume that level of risk as a "natural consequence" of their jobs? Maybe some will, but it is really a lot to ask of someone whose job is an educator.

AFAIK, the discussion is not about asking anyone to assume any risk whatsoever; rather it is about allowing those who wish to assume that risk to do so legally.

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it is a very high level of risk for a non-law enforcement employee to assume as part of their job.