quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Why do you think that 20 - 30 is an unreasonable number to have carry permits?

I'm not envisioning the little red schoolhouse, I'm talking about a school of 1,000 or more kids, and a hundred or more employees.

As far as track record, I only know that Arkansas passed such a law, and most schools in that state opted out on a faculty vote.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

You're probably right about spending the money. If we dropped the gun free zones designations and just let school employees who have permits carry, there wouldn't be any additional costs. However if this is adopted by most schools, I'm sure some Zimmerman type of fuck up would eventually happen though certainly nothing to the extent of 30 teachers running around waving guns.

Now I'm curious what the history has been with the 3 states and parts of Texas that have been allowing concealed carry in their schools. I believe Utah has recently approved it and it's under consideration in other states.

quote:

Finally, I haven't heard any suggestions from you to fix the problem to debate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

--FR--

There seems to be some discussion as to why shootings don't take place in private schools, so I did a quick search for shootings that took place in private schools in recent years, and came up with these in less than 10 minutes. The ones I found took place in various grade levels up to, and including private college. I didn't include one that took place on a private school bus.


http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11662481-school-shooting-murdersuicide-at-florida-private-school

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/04/03/11003360-oikos-university-shooting-private-christian-school-catered-to-koreans?lite

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/amish.shooting/index.html

http://articles.latimes.com/1987-02-15/local/me-3520_1_private-orme-school

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93650&page=1

http://bradley.chattablogs.com/archives/2006/09/school-shooting-at-westminster-christian-academy.html

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/story/23614924/two-teens-shot-at-private-school-near-orlando


Just as a point of interest, July 26, 1764 was the earliest known school shooting in the U.S...even though it wasn't really the U.S. at that time. Here is what seems to be a fairly complete list of various shootings at U.S. schools over the years. The list includes suicides, accidents, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#1760s

One thing I found of interest was the first listing in the 1880's section, and thought it seemed very similar to young kids fascination with things like gangster rap, etc. today.

Which pales in comparison with the violence in public schools so thank you for proving my point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie
A closer look shows that most of those were not spree shootings like the ones currently making the news. Those are usually traced back to Charles Whitman, and they seem to be occurring in public schools and a few universities..

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Finally, I haven't heard any suggestions from you to fix the problem to debate.

Not Ed…but

Make home ownership of all automatic or semi-automatic weapons of any kind illegal.

Have a uniform federal extensive background check required to be renewed yearly.

No person under the care of a mental health licensed professional may own weapons. Yearly mental health evaluations be required for all gun owners.

Have all gun owners pass an extensive gun safety course and require all weapons be locked or stored in a secure gun safe or forfeit the right of ownership in the case of accident and theft.

Allow no private transfers of ownership without a licensed third party entity that would assure mental health and background checks were performed and properly documented.

Allow no public sale and transfer of weapons until the proper documentation can be presented and checked through the proper databases.


Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003


The arguments to which I was responding, both pro and con, were based around whether private schools were safer and whether private schools do or do not suffer from shootings. I was simply pointing out that shootings do occur at private schools. Kids, teachers, parents, etc. all still do get disgruntled at private schools, just like public school, and sometimes do turn to guns as a means of expressing their ire. As EdBowie tries to argue in his response to my post, private schools, so far, for the most part have not suffered from "spree" killings, though as in the case of Oikos, with, I believe, 7 dead, even private schools have that problem too. Just because there haven't been "a lot" of spree killings at private schools is probably just a matter of numbers as much as anything else. There are many more public schools, with many more students, teachers, and families involved, making them much more likely to have been the site for any shootings, including spree killings. As far as private schools being "safe" from shootings...that, to me, appears to be a myth.

So...in response to BamaD...there are fewer shootings at private schools, but I think in large part that is simply because there are not nearly as many people involved.

And in response to EdBowie...Private schools do have spree shootings, as shown by Oikos. There may be others. What I provided was the results of a very quick search, and is in no way presented as a complete list. I'm relatively certain that more examples might be found if a person wanted to take the time to look for them.

For anyone to say that my short list "proves" anyone's point (other than to show that private school shootings do exist) is ridiculous.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No surprise there...lol

But no sense talking about changes that would reduce these type of tragedies without making suggestions that would make a difference. And my suggestions would greatly at least, reduce schools shootings and gun violence of all kinds.

But of course it is more important to make gun ownership convenient rather than safe.

Butch

quote:

Secondly, since there are more than 300 million guns out there, and most non-handguns have a semi automatic feature (its been around for over 150 years) it seems .. difficult to imagine a law applying retroactively.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Why do you think that 20 - 30 is an unreasonable number to have carry permits?

I'm not envisioning the little red schoolhouse, I'm talking about a school of 1,000 or more kids, and a hundred or more employees.

As far as track record, I only know that Arkansas passed such a law, and most schools in that state opted out on a faculty vote.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

You're probably right about spending the money. If we dropped the gun free zones designations and just let school employees who have permits carry, there wouldn't be any additional costs. However if this is adopted by most schools, I'm sure some Zimmerman type of fuck up would eventually happen though certainly nothing to the extent of 30 teachers running around waving guns.

Now I'm curious what the history has been with the 3 states and parts of Texas that have been allowing concealed carry in their schools. I believe Utah has recently approved it and it's under consideration in other states.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yes they could have stopped sandy hook...remember his mother was buying him weapons... even though he was under the care of a mental health professional. Of course any law requires compliance.

How may I ask are my proposed rules against the Constitution... They do not prohibit gun ownership.

Just because there would be a requirement for a mental health exam is not an invasion of privacy or due process.. It would just be a reasonable precaution to assure safe gun ownership.

Now why would living in the woods make it any less important to have your weapons secured?

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Finally, I haven't heard any suggestions from you to fix the problem to debate.

Not Ed…but

Make home ownership of all automatic or semi-automatic weapons of any kind illegal.

Have a uniform federal extensive background check required to be renewed yearly.

No person under the care of a mental health licensed professional may own weapons. Yearly mental health evaluations be required for all gun owners.

Have all gun owners pass an extensive gun safety course and require all weapons be locked or stored in a secure gun safe or forfeit the right of ownership in the case of accident and theft.

Allow no private transfers of ownership without a licensed third party entity that would assure mental health and background checks were performed and properly documented.

Allow no public sale and transfer of weapons until the proper documentation can be presented and checked through the proper databases.


Butch

quote:

That way if a gun is used, a ballistic match can be found even if the firearm was never used in a crime, and the owner located

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Regarding the zimmerman kind of fuck up.
If you wanted to mandate that schools were concealed carry - it might work. It would lower the chance of random zimmerman types attacking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

This simply is not true my friend... she bought and taught him to use the weapons... this would be illegal... she did not have them properly stored... this would be illegal. She had weapons that would be illegal to store at her home under my suggestions. There would have been a good possibility that this tragedy could have been prevented.

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Teachers at the college level break 8-1 democrat. At the highschool level its not as bad - in the neighborhood of 4:1.
Most teachers are women.

The demographics are such that even in a school of 50-100 teachers you will have probably at most 2-3 people with permits. Mostly in rural areas, or women that have been victimized before. I just do not see a situation occurring where you will have 20-30, unless you are paying for guards - and no school district can afford that much per school anyway.

This is why even in when they vote mandatory carry, most schools opt out.

Regarding the zimmerman kind of fuck up.
If you wanted to mandate that schools were concealed carry - it might work. It would lower the chance of random zimmerman types attacking.

But I don't think it solves the fact that the biggest cause of this kind of violence is student -on - student bullying or violence.

Which more or less I think occurs because we take juvenile delinquents and force them into school. Hard to expect them to become angels.

My proposed solution:

A). Carry law - as above.
B). Small juvie schools oriented around vocational training. Wood, Metal shop etc.
C). Better screening.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Why do you think that 20 - 30 is an unreasonable number to have carry permits?

I'm not envisioning the little red schoolhouse, I'm talking about a school of 1,000 or more kids, and a hundred or more employees.

As far as track record, I only know that Arkansas passed such a law, and most schools in that state opted out on a faculty vote.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

You're probably right about spending the money. If we dropped the gun free zones designations and just let school employees who have permits carry, there wouldn't be any additional costs. However if this is adopted by most schools, I'm sure some Zimmerman type of fuck up would eventually happen though certainly nothing to the extent of 30 teachers running around waving guns.

Now I'm curious what the history has been with the 3 states and parts of Texas that have been allowing concealed carry in their schools. I believe Utah has recently approved it and it's under consideration in other states.

quote:

To have a full federal ( i.e. an actual FBI agent going door to door revisiting 2nd grade teachers et al) background check annually would seem unworkable and ineffective

quote:

On 3, I'd argue against that sort of labeling. 'Under the care of' would take the right of armed self defense away from rape and abuse victims undergoing counseling, not to mention people being treated for anorexia, agoraphobia, sex addiction and a whole host of mental health issues with no visible connection to violence. It would also open the door for throwing due process right out the window, and disenfranchising people for merely falling into a category, like disabled.
I'm much more comfortable with requiring a judicial hearing complete with defense attorneys, and a finding of 'danger to self and others'. I would be in favor of adjusting the mental health system instead of the laws, so as to get suicides, and violence prone individuals assessed earlier.
In fact, I think that this is one of the most important changes that American society could look into.

quote:

On 4, the more safety and scenario based training the better.
On 4b... Making it a crime to be the victim of a crime, again violates basic tenets of due process. What happens if the thief takes the safe and all, and cuts it apart? I would stick to current standards for negligence, on a case by case basis.

quote:

On 6 I don't see that as too different from what is in place now.

quote:

On top of those, I would look for a way to stifle the copycat effect from the media oversensationalizing these events

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

To have a full federal ( i.e. an actual FBI agent going door to door revisiting 2nd grade teachers et al) background check annually would seem unworkable and ineffective

I am not proposing a federal agent going door to door. I just think a federal requirement in all states for ownership is important.

quote:

On 3, I'd argue against that sort of labeling. 'Under the care of' would take the right of armed self defense away from rape and abuse victims undergoing counseling, not to mention people being treated for anorexia, agoraphobia, sex addiction and a whole host of mental health issues with no visible connection to violence. It would also open the door for throwing due process right out the window, and disenfranchising people for merely falling into a category, like disabled.
I'm much more comfortable with requiring a judicial hearing complete with defense attorneys, and a finding of 'danger to self and others'. I would be in favor of adjusting the mental health system instead of the laws, so as to get suicides, and violence prone individuals assessed earlier.
In fact, I think that this is one of the most important changes that American society could look into.

My suggestions were strictly in general with no specifics and certainly what would be considered is what mental illness would be considered dangerous.

quote:

On 4, the more safety and scenario based training the better.
On 4b... Making it a crime to be the victim of a crime, again violates basic tenets of due process. What happens if the thief takes the safe and all, and cuts it apart? I would stick to current standards for negligence, on a case by case basis.

If the weapons were properly secured and still stolen it would not be a violation in the law.

quote:

On 6 I don't see that as too different from what is in place now.

Yes it would be different... The proper documentation would need to be presented at the time of the sale which would include background and mental health documentation.

quote:

On top of those, I would look for a way to stifle the copycat effect from the media oversensationalizing these events

In this I totally agree and it could be done easily.

I do appreciate your input and of course these were only suggestions that would of course have to be refined. It is just my belief that half measures will not work and sacrifices by gun owners, which I am one, will need to be made.

Butch