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RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 1:17:38 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wanderingjew

If speech is truly free, then there can be no limitations on it. However, there can be no such thing as truly free speech in the context of any group or social dynamic, the whole debate is pointless. What is debatable, and actually worth debating, is exactly what limitations should exist. Clearly, making obviously false statements that cause harm to somebody, such as baselessly claiming that somebody is a pedophile or a cannibal, should have some sort of repercussions should the target of such libel actually suffer some measurable harm from the statement. Similarly, a good argument could be made that in a case such as that proposed by Apocalypso there is a degree of responsibility attached to the one who first made the statement that others acted on.

It seems to me to be quite obvious that while absolute freedom of speech is a laudable concept, it is simply incompatible with reality. Words have power, words have the power to do great good and great harm and to ignore that fact in the name of an idealistic principle is a recipe for disaster (keep in mind that Hitler effectively talked his way into power). I would say that the litmus test must be harm. If actual harm results from one's words, then one is responsible, at least in part, for that resultant harm. What should not be done is to punish speech on the basis that it has the potential to cause harm.

And I do not include being insulted or offended in my definition of "harm".


Myself, I'm looking forwards to seeing somebody who's eaten half a dozen kids whining their pointy little head offd on Oprah about how the media made them a victim, while they put Thomas Harris on death row.
Merikah!

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RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 1:38:55 PM   
Moonhead


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You were talking about the definition of "harm" and media influence.
It's quite easy to head into Steve Gerber territory from there.


_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to wanderingjew)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 1:51:36 PM   
Moonhead


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That's what I'm wondering, effendi: should Russ Limpdick (or some redneck duck abuser) be held to a higher standard than some other cretinous white guy with a chip on his shoulder shooting his mouth off to people who lack the gumption to slap him one?

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 12/21/2013 1:53:44 PM >


_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to wanderingjew)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 2:25:59 PM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

What do you think about A&E's decision to shitcan Phil Robertson of "Duck Dynasty" for his (religious) views on homosexuality?
I think they're wrong, he has the right to his own opinion.
It's all about tolerance.
I wonder if Phil were a muslim, would they be so quick to condemn him?


Without knowing what A&E's contract with the bigot entailed I would imagine they were well within their rights. Last I knew, most employment contracts with public figures, which he is, involves some sort of clauses containing behaviour and how the employee, which he is, is expected to conduct himself as it may reflect on the company that employs them........which A&E is.

Personally I would be happy as a pig in shit if that show, and every single one like it, disappeared from television.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 2:49:58 PM   
Whippedboy


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There is no "free speech" question here. AE is a corporate entity and we all know they can do ANYTHING they want. But that aside, you CAN be fired for what you say. If I stood up at work and called my boss or co-workers racial slurs or insulted them or ranted how they were going to hell, how long would I expect to work there? The assholes that are pissed about this are the ones who share the same narrow-minded views. It does not matter if he was ASKED the question or not. You know the OTHER answer he could have given? "Those views are personal and I don't wish to share them." Who cares if it was a Muslim? I guarantee if he started ranting death to America bullshit he'd be gone as well.
The sad part is this piece of shit is given any regard at all.

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RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 3:06:27 PM   
sloguy02246


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whippedboy

There is no "free speech" question here. AE is a corporate entity and we all know they can do ANYTHING they want. But that aside, you CAN be fired for what you say. If I stood up at work and called my boss or co-workers racial slurs or insulted them or ranted how they were going to hell, how long would I expect to work there? The assholes that are pissed about this are the ones who share the same narrow-minded views. It does not matter if he was ASKED the question or not. You know the OTHER answer he could have given? "Those views are personal and I don't wish to share them." Who cares if it was a Muslim? I guarantee if he started ranting death to America bullshit he'd be gone as well.
The sad part is this piece of shit is given any regard at all.


Please! How dare you, sir!
This is the P & R forum on CM and as such, this is not the place for rational thought.

As another CM member stated here a short time ago on another subject:

"I think you all here in P & R would make great politicians. You spend 99% of your energy demonizing and spinning words to support your view...just like every elected official in Washington.
You are all a perfect, small version of our government and it’s why I haven't voted for either party in years."


(in reply to Whippedboy)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 3:14:13 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
So if I express my opinion that I'd like to see you beaten to a pulp you think that should be protected but stating "go beat you Heretic to a pulp" would be illegal? That seems to an awfully small nit to try and pick.



No, my response would be, "Bring it, bitch."

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 3:22:08 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Hardly true, but keep trying to convince yourself, let alone the rest of us.




There is no "convincing myself" involved Polite. I already know I'm an extremist on the subject.

Likewise, I have no interest in convincing you, though I would love to see a number of your fellow Brits try speaking about some protected minority in your country, the way they speak about Republicans in mine. The forums would be much more civil, while they were away in prison.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 3:55:52 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

Perhaps you are on different bus than I am.



Yep. It's about time you puzzled that out, too.

Let's try a little thought experiment here, MsMJay. It might work for some of the other subjects where I've seen you pop off with "I support, but" dumbassery.

Suppose someone was to say, "I support civil rights, but to maintain civic order, the darkies need to remember their place." Do you want them on your bus?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 4:01:39 PM   
MsMJAY


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They have a right to believe it and they have a right to say it and I support their right to say it. I live in Mississippi, people say stuff like that all the time here. The KKK still have rallies and marches here. I support their right to do that too. So yeah, they can ride.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

Perhaps you are on different bus than I am.



Yep. It's about time you puzzled that out, too.

Let's try a little thought experiment here, MsMJay. It might work for some of the other subjects where I've seen you pop off with "I support, but" dumbassery.

Suppose someone was to say, "I support civil rights, but to maintain civic order, the darkies need to remember their place." Do you want them on your bus?


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 4:09:52 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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I think you misunderstood the exercise. Not the free speech bus. Would you have that attitude on considering them supporters of civil rights?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 4:11:30 PM   
EdBowie


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Again, there are reports that Phil wanted off the show, and didn't want to pay a penalty for simply quitting.

A cynical person might wonder if he didn't figure out a way to leverage A&E into ending the relationship, while making himself look like a martyr, and gay rights groups look like oppressors...

http://za.omg.yahoo.com/news/duck-dynasty-fallout-glaad-reeling-biggest-backlash-years-010050637.html
quote:

In the fallout over Wednesday’s suspension of “Duck Dynasty” star Phil Robertson by A&E for anti-gay and racist remarks, GLAAD is experiencing record levels of backlash.

“In the five-and-a-half years I’ve worked at GLAAD, I’ve never received so many violently angry phone calls and social media posts attacking GLAAD for us speaking out against these comments,” the media watchdog organization’s vice president of communications Rich Ferraro told TheWrap.



quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

What do you think about A&E's decision to shitcan Phil Robertson of "Duck Dynasty" for his (religious) views on homosexuality?
I think they're wrong, he has the right to his own opinion.
It's all about tolerance.
I wonder if Phil were a muslim, would they be so quick to condemn him?


Without knowing what A&E's contract with the bigot entailed I would imagine they were well within their rights. Last I knew, most employment contracts with public figures, which he is, involves some sort of clauses containing behaviour and how the employee, which he is, is expected to conduct himself as it may reflect on the company that employs them........which A&E is.

Personally I would be happy as a pig in shit if that show, and every single one like it, disappeared from television.



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Reading for understanding, instead of for argumentation, has its advantages.

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RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 4:13:36 PM   
EdBowie


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As already pointed out, that's not a thought experiment, that's the fallacy of the excluded middle.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

Perhaps you are on different bus than I am.



Yep. It's about time you puzzled that out, too.

Let's try a little thought experiment here, MsMJay. It might work for some of the other subjects where I've seen you pop off with "I support, but" dumbassery.

Suppose someone was to say, "I support civil rights, but to maintain civic order, the darkies need to remember their place." Do you want them on your bus?



_____________________________

Reading for understanding, instead of for argumentation, has its advantages.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 4:14:25 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whippedboy

There is no "free speech" question here. AE is a corporate entity and we all know they can do ANYTHING they want. But that aside, you CAN be fired for what you say. If I stood up at work and called my boss or co-workers racial slurs or insulted them or ranted how they were going to hell, how long would I expect to work there? The assholes that are pissed about this are the ones who share the same narrow-minded views. It does not matter if he was ASKED the question or not. You know the OTHER answer he could have given? "Those views are personal and I don't wish to share them." Who cares if it was a Muslim? I guarantee if he started ranting death to America bullshit he'd be gone as well.
The sad part is this piece of shit is given any regard at all.

And I might have more sympathy for A&E except for the minor fact that they already knew his perspective-they did a show a while back where a gay LA photographer took family portraits. Phil was obviously a little uncomfortable with the lifestyle difference (As much LA fashionista diva as the fact that the guy was flaming gay) and they played up the social gap on the show. In fact, it was the comedic point of the entire show.
(In the end, the two got along and Phil liked the guys work too)

So A&E is playing both sides of the table here-they make money off of social/perception differences but then get upset when it gets publicized.

That's my beef



Side points:
-Again,I think that A&E's getting snookered. These boys are smarter than they look.They've now got a contract they can break and either A-Take the money, the top rated cable show on TV,something that outdraws the flipping NFL and split, or B-Negotiate a new deal at much higher cost with a new network.
What? You don't think Fox would sign em up in a heartbeat.
It'd be the TV coup of the season.
They'd bank billions.

-Firing someone only hurts if they are losing something they value. The man in question here has more money than he'll ever need, walked away from the NFL to be a broke duck hunter,spent years flat southern poor, really only wants a gun and some privacy, lives in the same house he's lived forever, and, oh yeah, happens to be a freaking Preacher, and a deep south fundamentalist one at that, which means he ain't gonna change his mind for nothing.
He don't need the fame.He don't need the money. He don't want the women. The man can flat walk and nothing can be done to stop him if he so desires.
That's something Hollywood and the Media don't encounter often.
There's not a value gap-there's a value chasm.

-Purely as a sidebar-why attack "this piece of shit" and "the assholes?'"
Just because their opinions/perspective is different than yours doesn't mean they deserve denigration.(In fact, the one you are denigrating by doing so is yourself...and on a public forum nonetheless. But, then again,maybe the username explains those particular inclinations)
Divergence of opinion is a good thing. Conflict leads to creativity. The different backgrounds and worldviews help form a stronger nation,one in which all parties have a right to speak their minds and all have equal value/right to be heard.

When we wall off those we disagree with, when we stop being open to different ideas, when we alienate and label and mock, that's where societies stifle and turn inwards.
America is a nation founded on the idea of a compromise government. It's based on people with opposing ideas sitting down and finding a common meeting ground. It's based on the dialogue between people from all walks of life working together to create a stronger country.
Moreover, as anyone who has read the Federalist Papers can tell you, one of the things the founders wrestled most with was the fear of the "Tyranny of the majority"-the idea that the majority of a population agreeing on something allowed them to strip the liberties of the minority.

But when we start slapping labels on the opposition, painting them as less than or morally unsound, that's where the dialogue stops and regression begins

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"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to Whippedboy)
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RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 4:16:44 PM   
MsMJAY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I think you misunderstood the exercise. Not the free speech bus. Would you have that attitude on considering them supporters of civil rights?


I have would have to hear their views on other socio-economic factors to gauge that. Based on that one statement I cannot say they are or are not supporters but I would be more than open to listening to them and learning what their views are.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 4:20:27 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY


I have would have to hear their views on other socio-economic factors to gauge that. Based on that one statement I cannot say they are or are not supporters but I would be more than open to listening to them and learning what their views are.




I gave you that, MJay. You're waffling, but at least it means you are thinking.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 4:31:11 PM   
MsMJAY


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I am not waffling. Your question just does not make sense. I have close friends (white and black) who tell me all the time they do not agree with me dating outside of my race (which I do all the time) and that I should date "my own kind." Its ok if they think that. I still love them, they still love me and we are still as thick as thieves. Its their opinion and I respect their point of view I don't judge them and I don't try to change them. And incidentally they still believe in civil rights. Maybe I live in a different culture than you so I cannot see things in such a one dimensional way as you do. People are complex and have their own viewpoints. It does not mean that I have to stuff them into a box and tell them what they are or are not. A part of freedom is the freedom of people to be who and what they are without the need to slap a label on them to include or exclude them from "our bus."

Yes I am thinking. Are you?

(edited to correct spelling.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY


I have would have to hear their views on other socio-economic factors to gauge that. Based on that one statement I cannot say they are or are not supporters but I would be more than open to listening to them and learning what their views are.




I gave you that, MJay. You're waffling, but at least it means you are thinking.



< Message edited by MsMJAY -- 12/21/2013 4:42:10 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 4:32:51 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Again, there are reports that Phil wanted off the show, and didn't want to pay a penalty for simply quitting.

A cynical person might wonder if he didn't figure out a way to leverage A&E into ending the relationship, while making himself look like a martyr, and gay rights groups look like oppressors...

http://za.omg.yahoo.com/news/duck-dynasty-fallout-glaad-reeling-biggest-backlash-years-010050637.html
quote:

In the fallout over Wednesday’s suspension of “Duck Dynasty” star Phil Robertson by A&E for anti-gay and racist remarks, GLAAD is experiencing record levels of backlash.

“In the five-and-a-half years I’ve worked at GLAAD, I’ve never received so many violently angry phone calls and social media posts attacking GLAAD for us speaking out against these comments,” the media watchdog organization’s vice president of communications Rich Ferraro told TheWrap.



quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


Without knowing what A&E's contract with the bigot entailed I would imagine they were well within their rights. Last I knew, most employment contracts with public figures, which he is, involves some sort of clauses containing behaviour and how the employee, which he is, is expected to conduct himself as it may reflect on the company that employs them........which A&E is.

Personally I would be happy as a pig in shit if that show, and every single one like it, disappeared from television.




I wouldn't be surprised. And the bonus is that it gets the far right ignorant nutters to jump on the misguided free speech bandwagon. Not to mention the nutjob from Alaska got to think she was relevant enough to spout off.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to EdBowie)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 4:44:24 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Hardly true, but keep trying to convince yourself, let alone the rest of us.




There is no "convincing myself" involved Polite. I already know I'm an extremist on the subject.

Likewise, I have no interest in convincing you, though I would love to see a number of your fellow Brits try speaking about some protected minority in your country, the way they speak about Republicans in mine. The forums would be much more civil, while they were away in prison.


At least you are learning not to try and convince me Rich.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Free speech? - 12/21/2013 6:05:53 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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It's nice to see you claiming such a fine seat on the high horse of tolerance, MsMJay. We'll see how you like it up there.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 120
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