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RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/29/2013 9:17:14 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Of course now some individuals will now call me a racist, but right now, I am sick and tired of having to deal with people who cant speak the fucking language in this country.


Back to the OP for a moment. So sorry for your inconvenience, jlf. Must be tough to get by in your neighborhood. Perhaps it would help if you understood some of the barriers for immigrants to learn a new language. It might help to walk in their shoes for a change.

What challenges do adults learning English face?
ESL learners are not only trying to acquire a new language and a new culture; they also are
working, managing their households, and raising their children. These challenges often
present significant obstacles to learning. The National Center for Education Statistics
(1995) listed the following barriers to program participation: limited time, money, child
care, and transportation, and lack of knowledge about appropriate programs in the local area.
The National Center for Family Literacy (NCFL, 2004) surveyed community leaders and
educators in communities with recent rapid growth in numbers of immigrant families, and
respondents identified similar challenges.
SOURCE

There are over 100 languages and dialects spoken by immigrants in Dade County, FL alone.

Are you suggesting that we learn all of them?

Or should those who moved there for a better life learn to speak the predominant language of the country they moved to?

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Profile   Post #: 201
RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/29/2013 9:38:54 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

There are over 100 languages and dialects spoken by immigrants in Dade County, FL alone.

Are you suggesting that we learn all of them?

Or should those who moved there for a better life learn to speak the predominant language of the country they moved to?

I was only suggesting some consideration for the difficulties an immigrant encounters in a new country instead of going off on a tirade about the inconveniences they cause us. Those inconveniences pale compared to the difficulties encountered by the emigrant. Did the OP stop to consider that the clerk was trying to make a living by offering a productive service? Did he consider her as a human being with flaws and frailties, and show a little compassion and much patience? If he did, kudos to him. However, I don't see that in his post. What I see more in stores is customer rage and discourtesies toward staff. Just bald, senseless power play. Not suggesting that about jlf. Just referring him to some obstacles to learning the language he may have never considered.

BTW, having taught senior and junior high schools for 30 years north of Flagler Street I know a few things about Dade County and its people, tyvm.

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RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/29/2013 10:31:04 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

So are you saying that immigrants coming to this country should not learn the predominate language spoken here?


I think you mean 'predominant'. Slight *ouch* there, JLF! ;-)

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Profile   Post #: 203
RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/29/2013 1:55:20 PM   
crazyml


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Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		Oh for fuck's sake.

As I have patiently explained, my "Apache" comment, while utterly lost on you was well understood by others. I have explained, politely, and without resorting to hysterical attacks why I made the comment.


You then attributed a statement to me that I did not make. And when this was pointed out to you, rather than being a grown up and saying something like "Oh fuck, I feel like a bit of a dick now!", you seemed to completely avoid the fact that you'd been caught doing something that a neutral observer might regard as really fucking stupid.

Then to claim that I'm continuing some kind of pretence when the whole misquoting thing was an invention of yours is utterly absurd.

Clearly you feel got at, and I'm so very sorry about the anger and confusion this is causing you - But since you hint that our views on this topic may not actually be all that far apart... perhaps you'd consider not inventing things for me to have said?

Or is that just too much to ask?

If it is, then as you say - this isn't a popularity contest, and I'm sure you'll not be surprised to learn that I don't actually give a flying fuck whether you think I'm someone's sock, a silly troll, or deeply stupid. Just as I would not expect you to be in the least bit bothered if I were to come to the conclusion that you were a stupid little fuckwad, with the reading comprehension of a 5 year old, and the emotional maturity to match.



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RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/29/2013 2:18:31 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

There are over 100 languages and dialects spoken by immigrants in Dade County, FL alone.

Are you suggesting that we learn all of them?

Or should those who moved there for a better life learn to speak the predominant language of the country they moved to?

I was only suggesting some consideration for the difficulties an immigrant encounters in a new country instead of going off on a tirade about the inconveniences they cause us. Those inconveniences pale compared to the difficulties encountered by the emigrant. Did the OP stop to consider that the clerk was trying to make a living by offering a productive service? Did he consider her as a human being with flaws and frailties, and show a little compassion and much patience? If he did, kudos to him. However, I don't see that in his post. What I see more in stores is customer rage and discourtesies toward staff. Just bald, senseless power play. Not suggesting that about jlf. Just referring him to some obstacles to learning the language he may have never considered.

BTW, having taught senior and junior high schools for 30 years north of Flagler Street I know a few things about Dade County and its people, tyvm.

We were colleagues then. I taught at 3 different High Schools and 1 Jr Hi in Dade co.

You mention that it's tough in a new country. It is but you must realize that the immigrant DECIDED to come here. When one consciously decides to do something, then one must submit to the consequenses of those actions.

If you taught that long in Dade Co, you must also be aware of the parochial/private schools in Hialeah and little Havana that taught K-12 in Spanish until the state outlawed that practice in the late 80's.

That's right kids. Parents paid extra to make sure their kids did NOT speak English until the 3rd generation when the state finally outlawed the practice.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 205
RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/29/2013 2:19:19 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

So are you saying that immigrants coming to this country should not learn the predominate language spoken here?


I think you mean 'predominant'. Slight *ouch* there, JLF! ;-)


Apologies for the word error, I seem to have a nasty habit of mixing those two up.

But at least I have an excuse, I am a Texan after all and we can butcher any language.

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Profile   Post #: 206
RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/29/2013 2:23:18 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		No on butchers language like an 'eer.
I thought you both really wanted the word "dominant".

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2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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Profile   Post #: 207
RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/29/2013 3:32:30 PM   
kalikshama


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Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

Or should those who moved there for a better life learn to speak the predominant language of the country they moved to?


Hell, before I went to Costa Rica for a few months I took a Spanish class.

When I was stationed in Okinawa, I learned enough Japanese to be polite.

I think we do our immigrants a disservice by allowing them to get by without learning English. They will just "get by" instead of "getting ahead," either confined to their enclaves or menial labor.

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RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/29/2013 5:08:18 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

So are you saying that immigrants coming to this country should not learn the predominate language spoken here?


I think you mean 'predominant'. Slight *ouch* there, JLF! ;-)


Apologies for the word error, I seem to have a nasty habit of mixing those two up.

But at least I have an excuse, I am a Texan after all and we can butcher any language.


You should hear the average Bristolian. Try translating "A gert big kiddie dapped I one!"

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RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/30/2013 6:08:20 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		I am having a hard time understanding what your overall point is and what the gripe of the OP is. The OP is getting insulted for the 1 in 100 times he had an interaction with someone who can't speak fluent English. It also seems obvious enough that aliens unable to speak English are operating at a disadvantage --- and quite in keeping with a right-wing mindset --- posters have problems with other disadvantaged peoples. (Why don't they just: (a) learn English; (b) get a job; (c) go back to their own country; ect.)

I'd love to know how many languages the Respondents on this thread actually speak, because if you haven't tried to learn a foreign language and you haven't traveled abroad to put it to use --- it figures you yourself are highly disadvantaged at understanding the world and other peoples. Frankly in America this is a far greater problem than aliens living here struggling to speak and understand English.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 12/30/2013 6:09:05 AM >

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RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/30/2013 6:39:21 AM   
kalikshama


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Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

I'd love to know how many languages the Respondents on this thread actually speak, because if you haven't tried to learn a foreign language and you haven't traveled abroad to put it to use


I answered this above so will add that when an employee of Publix in Hollywood Florida did not understand my question "Where is the wine?" I was able to pull out enough Spanish to get this answered as I had learned it for my trip to Costa Rica.

I do have a problem with hiring employees to serve customers when said employees are not fluent in the customer's language. I blame the employer.

Oh, and I also remember enough High School French to make my French coworkers really get a kick out of talking to me. I made a point of learning some Portuguese greetings for my Brazilian coworker. I wish my Indian coworkers Happy Diwali, etc.

When I was working at the office (I work remotely from another state now) I used to organize International Food Friday, where everyone brought in a food from their culture. I used to bake to celebrate Jewish holidays.




< Message edited by kalikshama -- 12/30/2013 6:43:25 AM >

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RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/30/2013 10:05:58 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

We were colleagues then. I taught at 3 different High Schools and 1 Jr Hi in Dade co.

You mention that it's tough in a new country. It is but you must realize that the immigrant DECIDED to come here. When one consciously decides to do something, then one must submit to the consequenses of those actions.

If you taught that long in Dade Co, you must also be aware of the parochial/private schools in Hialeah and little Havana that taught K-12 in Spanish until the state outlawed that practice in the late 80's.

That's right kids. Parents paid extra to make sure their kids did NOT speak English until the 3rd generation when the state finally outlawed the practice.

William, the complaint in the OP was not about how tough it is for strangers in a strange land but how tough and inconvenient it is for 'natives' of that land, for whom I have little sympathy. The influx of immigrants contributed to a viable economy for Miami. The western suburbs grew like mad as Hispanic professionals migrated out of downtown.

I taught in Opa Locka and then in Little Havana in the 1970s and well recall the private/parochial schools but my recollection is that they flourished in response to the court order that mandated forced busing. Both Spanish speaking and English speaking white parents established those schools to avoid having their children bused into black neighborhoods. It was a racial issue; not a language issue. The Junior High student population where I taught in Opa Locka remained more than 90% black when Hispanic and white academies were set up.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/30/2013 10:13:54 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 212
RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/30/2013 10:12:57 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

I answered this above so will add that when an employee of Publix in Hollywood Florida did not understand my question "Where is the wine?" I was able to pull out enough Spanish to get this answered as I had learned it for my trip to Costa Rica.

I do have a problem with hiring employees to serve customers when said employees are not fluent in the customer's language. I blame the employer.

It is quite wonderful how multicultural one can become when open contact is available. I don't see where fluent English is required to stock shelves or scan items at the check out in Publix.

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 213
RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/30/2013 2:40:27 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

\but my recollection is that they flourished in response to the court order that mandated forced busing. Both Spanish speaking and English speaking white parents established those schools to avoid having their children bused into black neighborhoods. It was a racial issue; not a language issue.



BULLSHIT!!!!


You're claiming that anglos sent their kids to schools that would only teach in Spanish?

BULLSHIT!!!!!


When I was at Mays Middle in Goulds. (A VERY black neighborhood) There was a waiting list of white kids to go to the magnet school.



I will saw to your explanation of K-2 Spanish schools................BULLSHIT

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 214
RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/30/2013 3:27:51 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

\but my recollection is that they flourished in response to the court order that mandated forced busing. Both Spanish speaking and English speaking white parents established those schools to avoid having their children bused into black neighborhoods. It was a racial issue; not a language issue.



BULLSHIT!!!!


You're claiming that anglos sent their kids to schools that would only teach in Spanish?

BULLSHIT!!!!!


When I was at Mays Middle in Goulds. (A VERY black neighborhood) There was a waiting list of white kids to go to the magnet school.



I will saw to your explanation of K-2 Spanish schools................BULLSHIT

Uh, no. Despite what seems to be a rather unnecessary emotional response from you, I did not say that white parents sent their kids to schools that would only teach in Spanish. You spoke about parochial/private schools. There were a number of small Christian affiliated schools that were founded in the early 70s for English speaking students who did not wish to be bused into black neighborhoods. I can see where I erred in misreading your limiting the phenomena to Spanish speaking schools. I had a flashback to my experience losing kids to white Christian 'academies.'

So, I misread you. Apologies. But my experience was that it was tied into the forced busing. Not a surprise that Hispanics did not wish to go to Mays. It had a horrible reputation.

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RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/30/2013 5:45:06 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I answered this above so will add that when an employee of Publix in Hollywood Florida did not understand my question "Where is the wine?" I was able to pull out enough Spanish to get this answered as I had learned it for my trip to Costa Rica.

I do have a problem with hiring employees to serve customers when said employees are not fluent in the customer's language. I blame the employer.

It is quite wonderful how multicultural one can become when open contact is available. I don't see where fluent English is required to stock shelves or scan items at the check out in Publix.


While you are correct that the simple acts of scanning and stocking does not require English, these employees, especially scanners, do need to interact with customers so should be able to speak their language. I frequently ask stockers where to find things - I did so tonight.

I'm for programs to help people learn English, but I'd like to be aware of their existence.

When I shopped at Sedanos in Florida or the Spanish market up here, I make sure I know how to pronounce what I'm looking for in Spanish or have it written down. I'm aware that there will be employees who don't speak English and plan accordingly.

Interestingly, I don't need to do this at the Asian market in Quincy.

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RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/30/2013 6:40:00 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

I answered this above so will add that when an employee of Publix in Hollywood Florida did not understand my question "Where is the wine?" I was able to pull out enough Spanish to get this answered as I had learned it for my trip to Costa Rica.
I do have a problem with hiring employees to serve customers when said employees are not fluent in the customer's language. I blame the employer.

It is quite wonderful how multicultural one can become when open contact is available. I don't see where fluent English is required to stock shelves or scan items at the check out in Publix.


Fluent? No.

Able to converse with the customers? Absolutely, if they are going to be out with the customers.

An employee, be it a merchandiser or cashier, etc., is representing the company. It's in the best interest of the employer for that employee to be able to communicate with the customers, if there is likely to be customer contact. While being fluent is helpful, being able to communicate doesn't necessarily require fluency.


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What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
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RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/31/2013 6:32:55 AM   
HipPoindexter


Posts: 188
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline 		i'm not. i think immigrants are great. i think it's invigorating to hear myriad languages spoken around me. the 21st century is going to be pretty fucking rad.

i'm not reading any other posts in this thread.

peace out!

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Profile   Post #: 218
RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/31/2013 6:43:05 AM   
PeonForHer


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What about English lessons provided and paid for by the companies who get all this cheap immigrant labour? A fair proposition, no? A company like McDonalds could even give participants one of their handsome and much prized certificates - similar to those they give to outstanding members of their restaurant 'crews' - at the end of each course.

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Profile   Post #: 219
RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. - 12/31/2013 7:07:13 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
FR
What about English lessons provided and paid for by the companies who get all this cheap immigrant labour? A fair proposition, no? A company like McDonalds could even give participants one of their handsome and much prized certificates - similar to those they give to outstanding members of their restaurant 'crews' - at the end of each course.


That might end up making it more difficult for an immigrant to get hired, though. If a company has to provide ESL instruction, it might be easier to just not hire those that would require it. And, there's nothing guaranteeing that a new employee would accept the education, either (it's doubtful that any would turn it down, but it's not a guarantee).

I have to wonder how these people got hired in the first place. If they can't communicate in the predominate () language, how did they get through the interviews?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 220
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