RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (Full Version)

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MariaB -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 8:30:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
It was migrants that built your country a mere 500 years ago.


Hell, it was immigrants that built the railroads 150 years ago, allowing our country to go from the Atlantic to the Pacific. It was immigrants that got us to the Moon 50 years ago. Immigrants have played an important role throughout our nation's history.

And as Americans, we don't forget where our ancestors came from (even the great-grandchildren of those Irish immigrants still think of themselves as a little bit Irish), but we also know we're part of a larger whole. I'm sure in a few generations, our grandchildren will be wondering what on earth we were so worried about.


I have quite a few American friends and like you they are well adjusted in their thinking. As a foreigner of America, when I read forums like this, I have to remind myself of those friends.

I also remind myself that here in Europe, we have the same sort of rants going off all the time but in reality its only a small fraction compared with how the mass populations feel and its the small fractions that find somewhere to make a noise.






cloudboy -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 9:31:49 AM)

Just back from Las Vegas. One of the best things about it is how you see people there from all over the world: Russians, Chinese, Japanese, Europeans, Canadians, and Latin and South Americans. It is very important for me to remember that English is but one language of many, and it is also important for me to remember how I need to meet and communicate with others from other countries.

I love other languages and cultures. The more, the better.

-----

The Godfather II was on AMC. I caught the part where the Vito as a child entered the the USA on a boat passing the Statue of Liberty with many other immigrants. It's just a great moment in film.

Then there was the scene with the senator from Nevada telling Michael he was not welcome in Nevada because he hated his "people" with their "slicked back" hair. The senator did not consider him a "real American."

-----

On the flip side of what you say, I meet with immigrants who see US citizens who don't value and appreciate the chance to receive an education and the opportunities that that the USA presents.




cloudboy -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 9:43:14 AM)




My problem is the individuals who do not want to learn English and expect to be understood in a predominately English speaking country.

----------------

I've never met anyone like this despite 12 years working as an immigration lawyer and studying and learning Russian and working with many in the Russian immigrant community.





njlauren -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 10:05:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: MAINEiacMISTRESS

That's funny, here in the "predominantly white" state of Maine at least in local schools they are now teaching foreign languages in first grade, which I think is BS because kids are struggling at that age just to learn to read and write English with proper grammar. Let them get the fundamentals of their own language down pat before bringing in a second. At least wait until 4th. Incidentally, I took French in HS and have NEVER ONCE NEEDED IT, even though there are a few pockets of French Canadian communities here in Maine.
I learned a little Chinese Cantonese on My own and have actually used that quite a bit.



First graders are like sponges and this is absolutely the best time to teach them to be bilingual.

When I started first grade in France I spoke no French, not because my household didn't speak French but because they wanted me to be fluent in English. That didn't hold me back. At that age I just absorbed and got on with the new language. A few months down the line I could speak as much French as my classmates and I could speak as much English as the average English kid my age. If we want our kids to be true linguists, bring them up with one language until they start school and then immerse them in another language in that school.

I didn't start learning Italian until I was in senior school and even then it was an after school class. I struggled and my Italian is pretty poor (even with my recent classes) which is a great shame as we live on the border of Italy and spend a lot of time their.

Teaching kids languages at a later age is a lot of hard work and most of those kids will drop out of language class because they find it too much of a struggle.





Yep, yep and yep. My wife speaks English as a native, yet she wasn't born here and spoke another language at home (one of the most difficult languages, I might add, since it is one of three that is not part of the Indo European language family:). My dad came here at 8, and he spoke English like a NY Native....

Jacob Bronowski , he of "Ascent of Man" fame, said that by the time you are thirteen, the wiring in the brain that allows kids to learn languages effectively, shuts down, and that if you learn it after that point, you will never really achieve native fluency. Think about it, kids are not taught language, babies learn to talk on their own, kids are wired to learn languages. I have friends who are Swiss, and they both know 4 or 5 languages, and their kids actually know more (and they also created their own language, that mixed languages that one parent knew and the other didn't, so they could talk in private!).

The whole argument about immigrants not learning english I think is a smokescreen to not wanting immigrants. Maybe living in the NYC area I am used to immigrants, but what I see is what always went on, the older generations have limited or no English, the young people are either bilingual or monolingual in English. I find very few kids, other than those who came to the US as teens, who have problems with English.




njlauren -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 10:14:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I agree. Culturally, hispanics generally and Mexicans specifically should be good Rs.


I've seen polls that show that Hispanics/Latinos aren't that conservative on economic issues. But I think that the Republicans could have a good chance with them on the "family values" stuff, if they acted more welcoming and got serious about some immigration reform other than fortifying the border.



I think you are right about this. I think they also would have a good chance with blacks on a lot of the same things. When Obama was elected the first time a lot of people in California thought this was a good chance to get the marriage bill passed because so many democrats voted in that election. What they didn't count on was that so many of the left were in agreement with the right on gay marriage and it was voted down. I think this is the reason so many democrats are so quick to try and claim the repubs are racist. They don't want to take the chance that someone will decide to switch sides and what better way to keep them hating the right than to lie and say the right is all racist.



Do you actually read, or are you dyslexic or something? In 2008, the bill that was put on the ballot was Proposition 8, which didn't legalize same sex marriage, it BANNED it, and it passed......it wasn't that the ballot initiative would have made same sex marriage legal and it was voted down, other way around.

And the reason it was passed is because the Mormon Church and the knights of columbus, along with other fascist groups, spent something like 50 million dollars on scare ads, that claimed that if prop 8 wasn't passed, gay teachers would be allowed to 'recruit' kids, that gays could have sex with kids, it was basically the equivalent of Nazi propoganda against the Jews..more importantly, if you look at 2008 and voting, I think about 45% of California voters went to the polls, but among conservatives, the rate was much, much higher than liberals.....the one truth is liberals often support same sex marriage, but don't exactly get themselves in a lather about it, whereas the religious reich and the rest of the bigots get all fired up over same sex marriage..add to that that a lot of liberal voters didn't exactly love Obama, were mad at him for beating Hillary, and didn't bother to vote....

In any event, your assertion is bs, its fundamental statement is false. BTW, last I checked, something like 65% of Californians support same sex marriage, and the number goes up each day when they realize unlike what the Knights of Columbus or the Morons thought, the world didn't end, marriage is what it always was, and so forth.




njlauren -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 10:27:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy




My problem is the individuals who do not want to learn English and expect to be understood in a predominately English speaking country.

----------------

I've never met anyone like this despite 12 years working as an immigration lawyer and studying and learning Russian and working with many in the Russian immigrant community.



I can understand that, and I feel the same way, but quite honestly, living in an area that has so many immigrants from all over the place, having been in places like Miami with heavy immigrant populations, I have run into that, but it is rare. I have gone into stores in an area near me full of Spanish speaking migrants, and the store owners make every attempt to communicate with me, I have never heard "you should learn spanish" from them, the only time I ever really heard that was in Miami among the Cuban crowd who came here after Castro, and many Cubans think they are assholes living in a fantasy world, who resented coming here and so forth..their kids and grandkids, on the other hand, groan and shake their heads. I have been in restaurants in Flushing that are pretty much Asian only, where they have native language menus, and I was treated well, I simply pointed at what I wanted, maybe attempted a few words I know (and had the waitress beam at me for trying..).....I have been in stores run by middle eastern immigrants, where the signs and such were in Arabic, and treated well, even though language was an issue.....I am almost 50, spent a lot of time in places with loads of immigrants, and I can count on one hand the number of times anyone has been rude enough to say "learn spanish" or whatever.

I also understand the frustration, though, about getting someone on the phone who doesn't speak English well, but that isn't their fault, they probably are trying, that is the employer's fault for having someone doing a job they aren't equipped for. My local Home Depot was famous for that, I am not kidding, you would have thought I was in a Mexican HD rather than one here...but guess what, that was the management, who decided to use minimum wage workers and not pay for decent help (and it damned nearly killed HD, they had to pay off the loser 150 million bucks who was the CEO who did this, and hired Arthur Blank as a consultant to rebuild their brand)..... I have called state offices and gotten someone who language skills were worse than my grandparents, and I couldn't believe they were allowed to answer the phone (and mind you, this was after pushing "1" for english....),..if you are angry about that, talk to the store owner or manager, because that is their fault. obviously, if you go into a store in a heavily immigrant area, expecting great English skills may be ridiculous, but the least you should be able to expect is that they try to work with you, rather than treating you like the immigrant who refuses to learn the language....I think of my local dry cleaning store, that is owned by this really nice Korean couple, and while their language skills aren't that great, they always make an attempt to talk to me, ask me (or how my son is doing, when they found out he was studying violin, well, my son became a god to them *lol*), and so forth, and how can I resent that? And given that my own language skills are poor, well, who am I to judge?




Rule -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 11:53:37 AM)

FR

I once spoke a USA woman who had lived for fifteen years in Germany and who in all that time had not learned to speak one word German.

Last month I met a USA man who has been living for four years in Amsterdam and who had made no attempt at all to learn Dutch.




EdBowie -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 12:01:55 PM)

This is by no means a situation that is unique to the USA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sJ7eMUBBzc

(If all you get from this documentary is an opportunity to launch an Islamophobic rant, I won't be wasting my time playing your game).




BamaD -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 1:18:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Don't try to put this back on me, you got caught making something up, either admit that I never said that, or keep getting called on it.
(Or run away, as is most likely).





quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

How is your little "reading for understanding" project going?

<snort>




Oh gosh... now I am very confused.

Perhaps you could point out what it is I've "made up"?

You see, my "Apache" comment - which appears to have been successfully read for understanding by at least a couple of people on this thread, appears to have flown over your head.

The comment was in response to your saying..

quote:

The topic here has been about those unwilling or unable to learn the language in their new country,


I really don't think you made the same point on the first page, it rather seems you made a very general post about the world being built on people who speak different languages, which isn't the same thing.

Now, if I have "made something up", please do point it out, and I'll happily apologise. If you feel as if I've misunderstood your position, perhaps you could do a better job of explaining it?

But I would ask you to reflect on your "reading for understanding sig line" in the context of your interaction with me.

Thank you for supporting my contention that when people refuse to learn the dominant language their intent is to change it to theirs.
In his defense when he came along Apache was an insignificant language.




MariaB -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 1:19:09 PM)

Its interesting that most English people can understand someone speaking English with a foreign accent, even when spoken badly. I can't think of any state in America where I don't understand their accent but I know that many Americans don't understand some of the English accents. An American friend, who after listening to a friend of mine speaking with a highland accent, told me she didn't understand a word he said. I could of understood if the guy had been a drunk Glaswegian but his accent sounded very clear.

The French find it very difficult to understand foreign people, unless they speak good French. Foreigners think they are just being awkward but truth is, they don't have an ear for any words that sound slightly different than they should.

I've never really thought about it before but perhaps Americans don't have an ear for the English language when its spoken in a foreign accent.




popeye1250 -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 1:23:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

JLF, agreed.
But, we really don't need immigration anymore.
All that "here for a better life" stuff is crap, we don't owe any foreign national a better life!
In the early 1900's we had millions of factory jobs that needed to be filled, now we don't.
You have to laugh when people say; "but who will pick your lettuce and tomatoes?"
I mean how many fuckin vegetable pickers do we need 30,000 40,000? Not 20 million!
And they're hurting our working people, driving down wages and causing more unemployment.
Between that and all those rotten "free-trade" deals that the American People never asked for imho we are very close to entering a *Depression.*
We have adults working for $10 an hour for cripe sakes in 2013 in the U.S.A.!
When someone who can barely speak English asks me for directions I just make believe I'm German and don't speak English; "Wie geht es innen! Essen zee meinen dicken! Heisen heesen crappen zee pantelones?"


Get a grip!

It was migrants that built your country a mere 500 years ago.

This thread was started by someone who fears immigrants foreignizing America and they are ill educated fears. Around 150 years ago you were all terrified the Irish were going to take over, it didn't happen!!

Surely American culture is far more dynamic than some of the negative racists we see on forums like this? What's with all this negativism think? Is it the tabloids you read? The people you mix with?

Funny thing is, we see this same ignorance throughout the western world but the bottom line is, most of us enjoy being a little cosmopolitan.



MariaB, it's simple arithmetic, at 320 million population (our government "thinks") we simply don't need any more people.
It's getting too crowded in this country now.
Some seem to want more and more people here. Why, so we look like India?
If we doubled our population to 650 million we'd need twice the number of airports, we;d need not 8 lane highways but 16 lane highways!
Double the schools, busses, trains, cars houses.
How are you supposed to finance all that stuff, with "Bonds?" What are you going to pay the bonds off with when we have so much debt?
How do you build another airport in Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Chicago, Denver, San Francisco? There's no land left!
And this is to say nothing of the *quality of life" in this country if the population were to double.
Oh, farmland. If we double the population someone's going to starve and it probably won't be in the U.S. so we'd again have to double, triple or quadruple our Coast Guard to keep people from sneaking into the U.S.
There would be "less" of one particular thing, grain ships headed from the U.S. to overseas.
It's bad enough getting tied up in traffic for two hours now, can you imagine getting tied up in traffic for 6 or 8 hours?
And what worked 500 years ago isn't nesseccerally
going to work today is it?
Hell, what worked here only 100 years ago doesn't work today does it?
Oh I'm very "cosmopolitan", I'm a dual U.S./ Irish citizen. My grandparents (p) were from Donegal and Sligo (m).
As for "negativism" what do you mean?
I'm very "positive" on America!
I am not however positive on the people running it.
Which country are you from?




BamaD -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 1:27:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Just back from Las Vegas. One of the best things about it is how you see people there from all over the world: Russians, Chinese, Japanese, Europeans, Canadians, and Latin and South Americans. It is very important for me to remember that English is but one language of many, and it is also important for me to remember how I need to meet and communicate with others from other countries.

I love other languages and cultures. The more, the better.

-----

The Godfather II was on AMC. I caught the part where the Vito as a child entered the the USA on a boat passing the Statue of Liberty with many other immigrants. It's just a great moment in film.

Then there was the scene with the senator from Nevada telling Michael he was not welcome in Nevada because he hated his "people" with their "slicked back" hair. The senator did not consider him a "real American."

-----

On the flip side of what you say, I meet with immigrants who see US citizens who don't value and appreciate the chance to receive an education and the opportunities that that the USA presents.

Bad example, Michael was a gangster




popeye1250 -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 1:35:40 PM)

Ha! I wonder if that "Nevada Senator's" last name was "Reid?"




BamaD -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 1:41:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Ha! I wonder if that "Nevada Senator's" last name was "Reid?"

Wouldn't know, haven't watched any of the Godfathers since the 70's




popeye1250 -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 1:59:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Ha! I wonder if that "Nevada Senator's" last name was "Reid?"

Wouldn't know, haven't watched any of the Godfathers since the 70's


You know, President Pantload would be good at identifying" immigrants."
He said on t.v. a week or two ago that he can tell if someone's an immigrant ..."just by looking at their faces."
Wow, who'da thunk? I wonder if that's a course at Occidental or Harvard?





EdBowie -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 3:29:28 PM)

That hasn't been my experience at all. And I've gotten traffic directions from Cockneys, lecture notes from Nigerians, and customer service from Indians.

I even understood some of what Brad Pitt said in 'Snatch'.
[;)]
quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Its interesting that most English people can understand someone speaking English with a foreign accent, even when spoken badly. I can't think of any state in America where I don't understand their accent but I know that many Americans don't understand some of the English accents. An American friend, who after listening to a friend of mine speaking with a highland accent, told me she didn't understand a word he said. I could of understood if the guy had been a drunk Glaswegian but his accent sounded very clear.

The French find it very difficult to understand foreign people, unless they speak good French. Foreigners think they are just being awkward but truth is, they don't have an ear for any words that sound slightly different than they should.

I've never really thought about it before but perhaps Americans don't have an ear for the English language when its spoken in a foreign accent.








EdBowie -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 3:46:09 PM)

My position was already spelled out, and it was exactly the opposite of 'learn the native language when you come here'. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4608126

quote:

In all seriousness, the world was built on people who didn't speak each other's language, learning how to do business together.
Story has it that when the Emperor of China banned learning English in the cities, the merchants of south China amassed fortunes using 'pidgin' (business) English to trade.
So it doesn't bother me as a customer to find a way to communicate to get what I want, no matter what communications barriers that particular clerk may be presenting (to include attitude, poor verbal skills from a native speaker, and so forth).
It is part of the great shopping adventure.
On the other hand, when it comes to 911 operators, air traffic controllers, and so forth, I fully expect there to be a standardized language that works best for the largest number of people.
And don't get me started on call center support 'English'.




It's a sad internet debate game to accuse people speaking out against racism of being racists, and speaking out against intolerance of being intolerant, and that's all the 'Apache' comment was... a trolling insinuation that I was the one being intolerant of others, posted well after I had made it abundantly clear that was not where I stood on the matter.

The continuation of that smear through the blatant lie of 'your position is that English was the official language', whether asserted from one posting account or from 20 is simply part of the prevalent game from the multifarious posters using this website as a game of obstructing as much tolerant discourse as they can.



quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


Thank you for supporting my contention that when people refuse to learn the dominant language their intent is to change it to theirs.
In his defense when he came along Apache was an insignificant language.





PeonForHer -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 3:48:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

That hasn't been my experience at all. And I've gotten traffic directions from Cockneys, lecture notes from Nigerians, and customer service from Indians.


That's very true, Ed. I've noticed that when a British man - such as myself - says 'I don't like to hear of American children being shot' you correctly translate that into US English as 'I'm deeply loving that American children get shot - why can't all Americans get shot? And by the way, the American War of Independence doesn't matter and Britain should still be running the USA'. [:)]




BamaD -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 3:50:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

My position was already spelled out, and it was exactly the opposite of 'learn the native language when you come here'. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4608126

quote:

In all seriousness, the world was built on people who didn't speak each other's language, learning how to do business together.
Story has it that when the Emperor of China banned learning English in the cities, the merchants of south China amassed fortunes using 'pidgin' (business) English to trade.
So it doesn't bother me as a customer to find a way to communicate to get what I want, no matter what communications barriers that particular clerk may be presenting (to include attitude, poor verbal skills from a native speaker, and so forth).
It is part of the great shopping adventure.
On the other hand, when it comes to 911 operators, air traffic controllers, and so forth, I fully expect there to be a standardized language that works best for the largest number of people.
And don't get me started on call center support 'English'.




It's a sad internet debate game to accuse people speaking out against racism of being racists, and speaking out against intolerance of being intolerant, and that's all the 'Apache' comment was... a trolling insinuation that I was the one being intolerant of others, posted well after I had made it abundantly clear that was not where I stood on the matter.

The continuation of that smear through the blatant lie of 'your position is that English was the official language', whether asserted from one posting account or from 20 is simply part of the prevalent game from the multifarious posters using this website as a game of obstructing as much tolerant discourse as they can.



quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


Thank you for supporting my contention that when people refuse to learn the dominant language their intent is to change it to theirs.
In his defense when he came along Apache was an insignificant language.



You realize that your post has zero relationship to mine which was not even directed at you in any way.




EdBowie -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/28/2013 3:53:52 PM)

Do you have any more falsehoods about what I said? Because I'm concluding that it's a long dry spell between anything factual.

In fact I won't even bother to ask that you provide a link to the original post from me where that alleged quote appears, because we both know there aren't any... again... some more... as usual.

But thanks for once again trying to derail a discussion where tolerance is being promoted.


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

That hasn't been my experience at all. And I've gotten traffic directions from Cockneys, lecture notes from Nigerians, and customer service from Indians.


That's very true, Ed. I've noticed that when a British man - such as myself - says 'I don't like to hear of American children being shot' you correctly translate that into US English as 'I'm deeply loving that American children get shot - why can't all Americans get shot?'. [:)]





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