RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants.

RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (Full Version)

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Zonie63 -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 6:27:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Give back the southwest? No, that wouldn't be practical. But at least we can vow to not do any further harm. That's what I meant.

jlf1961 -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 6:32:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Give back the southwest? No, that wouldn't be practical. But at least we can vow to not do any further harm. That's what I meant. First you know this is the US government that would have to make that vow right? Second, when has the US not jumped at the chance to screw some other country's shit up but good?

Zonie63 -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 6:46:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Give back the southwest? No, that wouldn't be practical. But at least we can vow to not do any further harm. That's what I meant. First you know this is the US government that would have to make that vow right? Of course, although it would largely depend on what kind of government the People elect. quote: Second, when has the US not jumped at the chance to screw some other country's shit up but good? True, but we've also helped a lot of countries, too.

jlf1961 -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 6:58:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 Of course, although it would largely depend on what kind of government the People elect. quote: Second, when has the US not jumped at the chance to screw some other country's shit up but good? True, but we've also helped a lot of countries, too. Uh, we are talking about the voting public, correct? Look at the last eight elections, and the current crop of rookie politicians. The day this country elects a government of selfless, compassionate, ethical individuals, this planet will be hit by a 12 mile wide asteroid four comets and a gamma ray burst.

BamaD -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 7:20:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Give back the southwest? No, that wouldn't be practical. But at least we can vow to not do any further harm. That's what I meant. The last piece of territory we got from them was went we bought the southern portion of Arizona from Mexico. Keep in mind that there were issues from the Mexican side (state sponsored piracy).

BamaD -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 7:21:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 Of course, although it would largely depend on what kind of government the People elect. quote: Second, when has the US not jumped at the chance to screw some other country's shit up but good? True, but we've also helped a lot of countries, too. Uh, we are talking about the voting public, correct? Look at the last eight elections, and the current crop of rookie politicians. The day this country elects a government of selfless, compassionate, ethical individuals, this planet will be hit by a 12 mile wide asteroid four comets and a gamma ray burst. We refuse to elect an honest politician.

graceadieu -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 7:28:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies It's just a piece of cloth. 64 pieces of cloth, actually, stitched together to form a symbol which is held dear and important to a whole lot of people. There is no requirement whatsoever that a business owner display it, but if he chooses to do so, then he ought to be aware that there is a code that goes along with doing so. I'd take my business elsewhere, too. where exactly does the (broken) light fit in? I am not getting the significance of the "light" issue here.. If the flag is displayed after dark, it should be lit. To have it up in the dark, unlit is disrespectful. (Keep in mind that San Diego is a military town) They probably just didn't know. I'd never heard that before, and I'm a natural-born US citizen.

graceadieu -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 7:37:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FelineRanger I'm with the OP on this one. My great-great-grandparents came from Calabria, Italy and Kiev, Ukraine, right through Ellis Island, settled in their respective "parts of town" but learned to communicate in English to blend in. I fail to see why anyone coming to the U.S. now shouldn't do the same. Your great-great-grandparents were not the norm. Before the last few generations, immigrant populations usually took a few generations before they assimilated and became fluent English speakers. M's family came here before the Civil War, and he had older relatives growing up that still spoke German at home. But these days, a lot of second-generation Americans are so assimilated that they don't even speak their parents' language fluently, and most first-generation immigrants at least learn enough English to have a basic conversation.

EdBowie -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 7:47:55 PM)
First, the flag code is unenforceable. It does not have the force of a criminal statute. If it were, there would be no use of the flag for advertising purposes at all. quote: §176. Respect for flag(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown. As far as the requirement of night time illumination 'when a patriotic effect is desired', the reasons for that can be found in the words of an old popular song.

graceadieu -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 7:56:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 I think of it more as an issue with management, as they're the ones who should be evaluating whether an employee has adequate communication skills to be able to carry out the functions of their job. Most immigrants I know try their best, although I understand that English is not an easy language to master for those who didn't grow up with it. Right, this is on the management. If you're hiring someone for a job that requires someone to communicate with your customers, you need to make sure they can do that proficiently before you hire them. This is really about employers who want to save money by hiring the cheapest workers possible. That's why companies outsource call centers, and also why they hire cashiers who don't speak English very well yet. A recent immigrant who doesn't speak much English doesn't have a lot of options, will work for a low wage and - in the case of unethical employers - is easily exploited.

graceadieu -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 8:31:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie First, the flag code is unenforceable. It does not have the force of a criminal statute. If it were, there would be no use of the flag for advertising purposes at all. quote: §176. Respect for flag(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown. Wow, somebody should go complain at Walmart,Target etc around July 4th about all the flag-themed paper plates, napkins, plastic cups, tablecloths, etc they sell. Not to mention every used car dealership ad ever.

EdBowie -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 10:36:47 PM)
Exactly. But people are ready to use violence to 'defend' the flag from being used as a symbol of protest. Consumerism not so much. quote: ORIGINAL: graceadieu quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie First, the flag code is unenforceable. It does not have the force of a criminal statute. If it were, there would be no use of the flag for advertising purposes at all. quote: §176. Respect for flag(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown. Wow, somebody should go complain at Walmart,Target etc around July 4th about all the flag-themed paper plates, napkins, plastic cups, tablecloths, etc they sell. Not to mention every used car dealership ad ever.

popeye1250 -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/27/2013 12:24:42 AM)
JLF, agreed. But, we really don't need immigration anymore. All that "here for a better life" stuff is crap, we don't owe any foreign national a better life! In the early 1900's we had millions of factory jobs that needed to be filled, now we don't. You have to laugh when people say; "but who will pick your lettuce and tomatoes?" I mean how many fuckin vegetable pickers do we need 30,000 40,000? Not 20 million! And they're hurting our working people, driving down wages and causing more unemployment. Between that and all those rotten "free-trade" deals that the American People never asked for imho we are very close to entering a Depression. We have adults working for $10 an hour for cripe sakes in 2013 in the U.S.A.! When someone who can barely speak English asks me for directions I just make believe I'm German and don't speak English; "Wie geht es innen! Essen zee meinen dicken! Heisen heesen crappen zee pantelones?"

crazyml -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/27/2013 1:04:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Don't try to put this back on me, you got caught making something up, either admit that I never said that, or keep getting called on it. (Or run away, as is most likely). quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml How is your little "reading for understanding" project going? <snort> Oh gosh... now I am very confused. Perhaps you could point out what it is I've "made up"? You see, my "Apache" comment - which appears to have been successfully read for understanding by at least a couple of people on this thread, appears to have flown over your head. The comment was in response to your saying.. quote: The topic here has been about those unwilling or unable to learn the language in their new country, I really don't think you made the same point on the first page, it rather seems you made a very general post about the world being built on people who speak different languages, which isn't the same thing. Now, if I have "made something up", please do point it out, and I'll happily apologise. If you feel as if I've misunderstood your position, perhaps you could do a better job of explaining it? But I would ask you to reflect on your "reading for understanding sig line" in the context of your interaction with me.

crazyml -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/27/2013 2:03:54 AM)
[Edited to correct the typos I noticed] [FR] This thread has brought up a bunch of issues. First, I'll be honest and admit that I was surprised that the USA doesn't have a "national language", so until one is decided upon, I'm fairly sure that it would be odd to make permanent residence or citizenship dependent on a person's understanding of English. I happen to think it would be a good thing, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to have a functional understanding of a common language before they earn a right to citizenship. I wonder if it would be possible for America to choose a national language now? Then there's the question of supermarket cashiers that don't speak English well, hmm... as others have said, surely that's a hiring decision made by a particular company? When I lived in Concord MA, I had a wide choice of supermarkets I could go to the lowest cost supermarket and be ready to speak a little Spanish, or I could spend quite a lot more on my groceries and go to Cosby's, which had a pretty limited selection (very little "foreign food" for example) but a sensitive person could be sure that the check-out people would be comfortingly Anglo. It seems that there might be a correlation between employment practices and "cost". Given the emphasis that many Americans (rightly) place on allowing the individual and the corporation as much freedom as possible it seems odd that they should get a hard time for exercising their freedoms - Surely the market will dictate? Surely, it would be more convenient to offer only English at your call center, there must be a reason why these corporations believe it makes sense to offer English and Spanish? Perhaps they feel that it is in their commercial interests to offer customers choice? As far as the individual is concerned... America is supposed to be the land of the free dammit! Surely people should be allowed to speak whatever language they want to ? Off-shoring is similar, it doesn't make any sense to deny corporations the right to look for the most effective way of delivering their services. Sure, many would make the point that they're being foolish by seeking to cut call center costs at the expense of the quality of the customer experience but surely, again, the market will ultimately decide? In terms of the languages spoken by legal immigrants, this will be interesting to some - http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acs-22.pdf It does seem odd that the biggest immigrant group (Spanish speakers) should have a "Spoke no English at all" percentage of 9%, which is only exceeded by the second biggest immigrant group (Chinese speakers) of whom 9.7% speak no English at all. I do think that the problem of integration is going to be helped much by simply blaming one group or another... I suspect the causes are more complex. As one example (of many) I think the types of jobs people do will have a bearing - the very very poor are less likely to be able to integrate. So while, I'll admit to having been frustrated at times by the poor language skills of call centre staff, I know that I have a choice - and if it meant that much to me, I could switch. I certainly don't allow the experience to draw me to a place where the things I say could quite easily be interpreted as being just a little bit racist.

DesideriScuri -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/27/2013 6:00:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml Given the emphasis that many Americans (rightly) place on allowing the individual and the corporation as much freedom as possible it seems odd that they should get a hard time for exercising their freedoms - Surely the market will dictate? Surely, it would be more convenient to offer only English at your call center, there must be a reason why these corporations believe it makes sense to offer English and Spanish? Perhaps they feel that it is in their commercial interests to offer customers choice? As far as the individual is concerned... America is supposed to be the land of the free dammit! Surely people should be allowed to speak whatever language they want to ? It is a business decision. And, it behooves a business for it's employees to be able to relate to the customer in a way the customer finds satisfactory. If a business doesn't, it will likely see a reduction in sales, as people will gravitate towards places with better customer service, all else being equal. Don't misinterpret that to mean I think business should be forced to make that choice. That's something I see as a boon for business and a choice it should choose to make, depending on it's clientele. That choice, however, is up to the business. If I wander into "Little Italy," I wouldn't be surprised to find more Italian being spoken than outside the area. If I wander into a market that caters more towards Hispanics in a predominately Hispanic part of town, I'd be surprised to not hear a lot of Spanish. America was called the "Great Melting Pot" because it welcomed people from all areas. Do understand, though, that a melting pot tends towards unity and assimilation. A person that doesn't understand English shouldn't be surprised to find difficulty in a land where English is the dominant language (the de facto National language, even though there is no "official" one). It also should be understood that a person may have difficulty when going to a business where they don't know the language spoken there. A business, too, should understand that not having employees capable of conversing in the dominant language might hurt the business and drive consumers away. The choice of who to employ is still up to the employer. The choice of where to spend his/her money is up to the individual consumer. The Market/Consumer should be what gives business the inputs towards what choices to make.

EdBowie -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/27/2013 7:43:58 AM)
3 to 4 million migrant farmworkers alone... that isn't counting family farmers, or immigrants who work in contruction, etc. But don't strain yourself trying to do the heavy lifting of reality. quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 JLF, agreed. But, we really don't need immigration anymore. All that "here for a better life" stuff is crap, we don't owe any foreign national a better life! In the early 1900's we had millions of factory jobs that needed to be filled, now we don't. You have to laugh when people say; "but who will pick your lettuce and tomatoes?" I mean how many fuckin vegetable pickers do we need 30,000 40,000? Not 20 million! And they're hurting our working people, driving down wages and causing more unemployment. Between that and all those rotten "free-trade" deals that the American People never asked for imho we are very close to entering a Depression. We have adults working for $10 an hour for cripe sakes in 2013 in the U.S.A.! When someone who can barely speak English asks me for directions I just make believe I'm German and don't speak English; "Wie geht es innen! Essen zee meinen dicken! Heisen heesen crappen zee pantelones?"

EdBowie -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/27/2013 7:49:48 AM)
You know damn well what you made up, you claimed that I said English was the national language in America. And you know damn well that claim is a lie. And your ignorant 'Apache' comment had nothing to do with what I'm talking about. This is what you posted: "I would like to see a link to the site that validates your position that english is the national language of the u.s." quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Don't try to put this back on me, you got caught making something up, either admit that I never said that, or keep getting called on it. (Or run away, as is most likely). quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml How is your little "reading for understanding" project going? <snort> Oh gosh... now I am very confused. Perhaps you could point out what it is I've "made up"? You see, my "Apache" comment - which appears to have been successfully read for understanding by at least a couple of people on this thread, appears to have flown over your head. The comment was in response to your saying.. quote: The topic here has been about those unwilling or unable to learn the language in their new country, I really don't think you made the same point on the first page, it rather seems you made a very general post about the world being built on people who speak different languages, which isn't the same thing. Now, if I have "made something up", please do point it out, and I'll happily apologise. If you feel as if I've misunderstood your position, perhaps you could do a better job of explaining it? But I would ask you to reflect on your "reading for understanding sig line" in the context of your interaction with me.

truckinslave -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/27/2013 7:56:45 AM)
quote: -"We have the highest percentage of non English Speaking immigrants in our history"...really? Yes. Really. The Irish spoke English...... quote: many of the people coming from central and south america have a lot more in common with their supposedly 'conservative' values than white trash like Honey Boo Boo and her family I agree. Culturally, hispanics generally and Mexicans specifically should be good Rs. By "less in common with Western values" I meant such groups as Hmong, Somalians, and Muslims, all of which have been "targeted" for immigration into the United States and have little or nothing in common with our religious, social, or cultural mores... not even a shared root language. My point is and has been that the less an immigrant population shares with its host the more difficult assimilation is. Our immigrant population (legal and illegal) is too big and assimilating too slowly. I want to cut it off, reduce it basically to zero, until those already here assimilate.

thishereboi -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/27/2013 8:02:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx I go to mexico about once a month. I go to bull fights , bicycle races I ride public busses. I go to los angeles once a week I go to public venues and ride public busses and in the past forty some years I have not been shot at in either place. Neither have I. Turistas aren't usually targeted, but a lot of people are still getting killed down there. The death toll since 2006 is close to 100,000. quote: 62 killed in 2006[19] 2,837 killed in 2007[19] 6,844 killed in 2008[19] 11,753 killed in 2009[19] 19,546 killed in 2010[20][21] 24,068 killed in 2011[22][23][24] 18,061 killed by 31 October 2012[25] Total killed: 90,000-106,000 killed 6,800+ killed in 2013 under Nieto administration [26] Total estimate of deaths (varies): 83,191+ during Felipe Calderon administration. 6,800 + killed in first three months of Enrique Nieto administration [27] = 90,000+[28][28] Total displaced: 1.6 million[29] quote: quote: We might have to help them, perhaps some kind of "Marshall Plan" for Latin America might help those on both sides of the border. Mexico is not unaware of how the u.s. "helps". We did steal more than half of their country at the point of a gun. Then it might be prudent for us to change our ways and reverse previous policies regarding things like that. Give back the southwest? That might work and legalize pot [8D]

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