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Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/7/2014 9:20:02 PM

NiceButMeanGirl

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I have a genuine question and it's NOT Pro Domme bashing AT ALL. Say there's a Domme and she's really looking for a "lifestyle dynamic/relationship" but some guy comes along and says he just wants the kink and nothing else. She says she's wanting more than just kink and that it's not going to work. A couple weeks later, he gets back to her and says "I'll pay you $XXX an hour to dominate me!" so she thinks about it, agrees & gets back to him with her answer. They meet every couple weeks over at least a year and still continue to see each other on a paying basis.

Then a second guy contacts her and starts badgering her to fulfill his kink and do nothing else so she tells this guy that, if the entire meetings will be revolving around his kink and nothing else, she will expect a donation of sorts, thinking that will dissuade him. But it doesn't and, much to her surpsise, he says "How much?" Then she and the second guy agree on a price for a weekly meeting to fulfill his kink and nothing else. He actually offers her more than she first mentioned. NEITHER of these guys are getting anything even remotely resembling sex in any of it's forms.

She's never thought of herself as a "Pro Domme" because she doesn't have a fully-stocked dungeon, but she is getting paid by these two guys. She's still looking for a lifestyle relationship which is what she really wants. So, is she a Pro Domme or not?? Where does one "draw the line?"

NBMG

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RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/7/2014 9:36:04 PM

mummyman321

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I would make the statement as anyone who accepts cash payment for rendering BDSM services to be a ProDomme. I use the word Pro to mean she is making money and not that she is all knowledgeable in the ways of BDSM. That is my definition. Others will vary. Whether or not she is looking for a real life BDSM relationship does not change the equation. Money for service is just that.

Now that being said I see nothing wrong with a ProDomme. A person pays, people have fun, no harm done. I see nothing wrong with it.

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RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/7/2014 11:11:18 PM

LafayetteLady

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I say she is a pro, even if it is a reluctant one. Technically, the definition of a "pro" (any type of pro, not simply domme) is getting paid for providing services, which is why I say she's now a pro.

I see nothing wrong with what is occuring, no one was forced, everything agreed by all.

By the way, if the "she" in this is you...why a need to draw any line? You may not be starting a new "career" as a pro dominant, but while searching for the right partner, why not enjoy yoruself and make a few bucks a long the way? I say good for you.

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RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/7/2014 11:21:34 PM

LadyPact

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I go with she is a pro as well. The money was exchanged for play and that's the basic definition, IMO.

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RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/8/2014 6:31:16 AM

mummyman321

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For a gray line subject on ProDommes:

What about a sub courting a Domme. He talks to her for months. Both the Domme and sub enjoy a latex fetish. He sets up a nice getaway at a high end resort spa for her and her girlfriend and he gets to tag along. He agrees to paying for a variety of weekend activities at the spa including a 5 star restaurant. As part of the agreement the said sub will also spend an entire day/evening in a new bondage outfit he has purchased (his request). The getaway weekend was suggested by the Domme, the sub agreed to pay for everything willingly. Is this just a sub courting a potential future Domme of his dreams? Or is she a ProDomme for accepting said gifts in exchange for the sub’s night of bondage? (FYI this was a true scenario)

Take this a little further now. What about a married couple? The sub husband buys his Domme wife a nice brand new Lexus for Christmas. He also asks his Domme wife that for Christmas that he would like to be (insert your favorite fantasy here) for Christmas. Would you consider the wife here a ProDomme? Where do you draw the line?

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RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/8/2014 7:23:50 AM

igor2003

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--FR--

If money or items are given IN EXCHANGE for being dominated, then the person is a pro dom. Would person X dominate person Y if nothing is expected or demanded in return? Then that is non-pro. There is nothing "pro" about simply giving or receiving a gift. It is when that "gift" is demanded or expected in order for domination to take place that it becomes pro.

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Post #: 6

RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/8/2014 8:43:39 AM

FriendlyMuppet

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I think the major misunderstanding is the erroneous belief that someone is incapable of being a pro dominant AND a lifestyler at the same time. A lot of people prefer to separate those two entities so much that they can't see them being the same. I've known MANY pro dommes who are also lifestylers, and there isn't a distinction between the two. The only question that's really necessary to ask here is whether taking money makes someone a pro domme, not whether or not that changes someone from being a lifestyler or not (cause that's what appears to be happening). As many have pointed out already, the taking of money makes her a professional. But that doesn't mean she's not still a lifestyler, if that's what she wants to consider herself.

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RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/8/2014 8:46:14 AM

RedMagic1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NiceButMeanGirl
She's never thought of herself as a "Pro Domme" because she doesn't have a fully-stocked dungeon, but she is getting paid by these two guys.

She's a Talented Amateur Domme.

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RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/8/2014 9:07:30 AM

SylvereApLeanan

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She sounds like a semi-pro domme, sort of like a semi-pro model/writer/musician/etc. My standard for "pro" boils down to:

1. She's making enough to support herself on income earned from kinky play; and/or
2. She's actively seeking clients with the goal of earning enough to support herself.

Number 2 includes activities such as advertising, putting up a website, blogging or using other social media to promote her services, and producing content such as photo sets or video clips to sell or to give away as perks for paying clients.

It's possible to get paid but not be a professional. I've done modeling gigs where I was paid for my time but I'm not a professional model. I don't advertise myself as a model, but I'll work when the opportunity comes along. I don't have an agent or pay all (or even part) of my bills on what I make from modeling. I qualify as "semi-pro" according to Webster's definition.

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RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/8/2014 9:34:32 AM

NiceButMeanGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
By the way, if the "she" in this is you...why a need to draw any line? You may not be starting a new "career" as a pro dominant, but while searching for the right partner, why not enjoy yoruself and make a few bucks a long the way? I say good for you.

Yes, LL, the Domme in the my post is me. You're so perceptive.

I was, well, not planning on ever really taking $$ from anyone ever but I got tired of being badgered for kink and nothing more, so I mentioned "a donation of sorts" thinking that, of course, it would deter them. Of course it did not. lol So there I was and here I am.

I tend to agree with everyone that taking $$ for domination services makes one a Pro, although I'd be considered a low-end Pro if I am one. I don't have my own dungeon and I just have a modest selection of toys and accouterments. I never took near what the average advertised Pro would charge in my area, but I still received $$ for my services so, yes, by my definition, I'd be a Pro. Or maybe a semi-Pro. lol I'd hate for that to define me though. because I'm so much more than just that. No matter what the label may be, that tends to put people in boxes and I hate that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mummyman321
The getaway weekend was suggested by the Domme, the sub agreed to pay for everything willingly. Is this just a sub courting a potential future Domme of his dreams? Or is she a ProDomme for accepting said gifts in exchange for the sub’s night of bondage? (FYI this was a true scenario)

Take this a little further now. What about a married couple? The sub husband buys his Domme wife a nice brand new Lexus for Christmas. He also asks his Domme wife that for Christmas that he would like to be (insert your favorite fantasy here) for Christmas. Would you consider the wife here a ProDomme? Where do you draw the line?

You know, that is a gray area. lol She almost sounds more like a financial Domme but, again, what is the actual difference? I know people refer to Pro Dommes and then finDommes. But, during the weekend, the sub gets to indulge his latex fetish and he's paying for it all. That sounds like Pro to me. Maybe it's just me, but I think paying for an entire weekend is a pretty extravagant thing to do for courting purposes.

With the married couple scenario, I really haven't got a clue what to think. But, on the surface, it really isn't all that different than the weekend scenario when you consider who's getting what and who's paying for what. Pro?

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
--FR--

If money or items are given IN EXCHANGE for being dominated, then the person is a pro dom. Would person X dominate person Y if nothing is expected or demanded in return? Then that is non-pro. There is nothing "pro" about simply giving or receiving a gift. It is when that "gift" is demanded or expected in order for domination to take place that it becomes pro.

The first man in my OP, we had started seeing each other and then found out we weren't looking for the same kind of situation (I wanted a relationship and he wanted just the kink). So he came back and offered $$ because "I like the way you dominate me." I liked him anyway and appreciated the chance to still see him on some level, although I know it will never be what I am looking for.

The second person, he's just an obnoxious one. I really never planned on seeing him and that's why I mentioned $$ when he kept bugging me, to dissuade him, but it didn't. So here I am. Without a doubt, it would be considered Pro because I mentioned $$ and he agreed.

What's really weird is, there is a third man that really really really wants someone to to a particular thing to him and he's gone into great detail about it to me. It's NON-sexual but a massive fetish just the same. I said I really don't know who he could go to. He says "What about YOU??" meaning me. I said "I will tell you the same thing I told the other guy" and referred to donating because of catering specifically to fetishes. He never said anything but I could see the wheels spinning in his head. Then I'm thinking "Oh crap!" I already told him there would never be a relationship between him and me. As a matter of fact, I told him earlier that same day, so he knows that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

She sounds like a semi-pro domme, sort of like a semi-pro model/writer/musician/etc. My standard for "pro" boils down to:

1. She's making enough to support herself on income earned from kinky play; and/or
2. She's actively seeking clients with the goal of earning enough to support herself.

Number 2 includes activities such as advertising, putting up a website, blogging or using other social media to promote her services, and producing content such as photo sets or video clips to sell or to give away as perks for paying clients.

It's possible to get paid but not be a professional.

I'm not making enough to support myself by a long shot. lol And I'm most definitely not advertising. I don't start to get antsy just before the rent is due. I'm not looking for clients. The only time I even mention $$ is if someone continues to badger me about their fetish and, even then, I tell them I'm looking for an actual relationship/dynamic and, if all they want is fetish fulfillment, then they need to make a donation. What have I done!? lol

NBMG

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RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/8/2014 9:40:34 AM

SylvereApLeanan

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Next thing ya know, you'll be taking selfies in the bathroom mirror while making duck lips and flipping the bird, and rewriting your profile so it says "fuck you, losers, pay me!"

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RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/8/2014 9:42:44 AM

NiceButMeanGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

Next thing ya know, you'll be taking selfies in the bathroom mirror while making duck lips and flipping the bird, and rewriting your profile so it says "fuck you, losers, pay me!"

OMG no!! NEVER!!!!

NBMG

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RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/8/2014 9:59:32 AM

FieryOpal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

I say she is a pro, even if it is a reluctant one. Technically, the definition of a "pro" (any type of pro, not simply domme) is getting paid for providing services, which is why I say she's now a pro.

I see nothing wrong with what is occuring, no one was forced, everything agreed by all.

If a Domme is essentially catering to a sub in a BDSM capacity, without the benefit of having an otherwise intimate relationship, and money is changing hands, then she is a provider. The money can be in the form of gift cards or (non-special occasion or non-surprise gift) purchases made to one of her wish lists. When sessions are timed and scheduled, assessed an agreed-upon value, and the sub is selecting from a fetish or kink menu, this would be a pro-Domme arrangement. This could also be structured as more of a fin-Domme arrangement where the client makes regularly scheduled payments and there is basic IRT BDSM coverage, or with on-line and/or over-the-phone interaction.

I don't do this myself, but I have a couple Domme friends who do. They also did not start out looking for clients but did require tribute from their subs. It's hard to make a distinction in their cases, since tributes were more in gift form and not set up as flat-out fees. If doing this as a fin-Domme, the Dominant or Switch should make it crystal clear that she does what she wants and takes full charge of conducting these sessions. Anything less than that undermines the D/s dynamic that should always be in place, unless she is merely interested in Topping them, and they are merely wanting a Top-for-hire, in which event they could hire a service Top who is not even a Domme.

My suggestion is that since these two sub scenarios involve fairly regular sessions, that you should structure your arrangement with them on a fin-Domme basis, including an upfront or after-the-fact retainer to cover missed sessions or short-notice cancellations, cost of supplies and/or equipment (massage tables aren't cheap), sex toy replacements, trying out new fetish gear, personal service expenses incurred (mani-pedis, waxing, getting your hair done, new outfits & accessories), etc. This might make you feel better about your ambivalence about whether you are semi-pro or pro-Domming, because this isn't just a matter of morality or reputation, it has to do with power exchange and your own dominance self-empowerment. As long as a Domme feels as though she is not the one fully in charge and control, she is in essence giving her power away no matter how selective she is in how she has chosen her sub or chooses a sub in the future.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mummyman321

For a gray line subject on ProDommes:

What about a sub courting a Domme. He talks to her for months. Both the Domme and sub enjoy a latex fetish. He sets up a nice getaway at a high end resort spa for her and her girlfriend and he gets to tag along. He agrees to paying for a variety of weekend activities at the spa including a 5 star restaurant. As part of the agreement the said sub will also spend an entire day/evening in a new bondage outfit he has purchased (his request). The getaway weekend was suggested by the Domme, the sub agreed to pay for everything willingly. Is this just a sub courting a potential future Domme of his dreams? Or is she a ProDomme for accepting said gifts in exchange for the sub’s night of bondage? (FYI this was a true scenario)

Take this a little further now. What about a married couple? The sub husband buys his Domme wife a nice brand new Lexus for Christmas. He also asks his Domme wife that for Christmas that he would like to be (insert your favorite fantasy here) for Christmas. Would you consider the wife here a ProDomme? Where do you draw the line?

There is no gray line in either instance. When a man is courting a woman, gifts and getaways are part and parcel of winning the woman's favor. The sub in this instance should consider himself lucky that he got what he wanted, which isn't to be taken for granted when a gentleman puts out money while dating. A date is a date. A rendezvous is a rendezvous. There is nothing professional or clientèle-based about it. A marriage is a marriage. I won't bother to elaborate on the difference between a close, intimate relationship and a professionally-founded one. In fact, it can be fun to sexually barter with your intimate partner, kink or not.

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Post #: 13

RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/8/2014 10:54:28 AM

mummyman321

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NBMG,
I would agree that Sylvere’s syntax is probably more appropriate in the case you stated. But in the end it is still pay for play. I am curious as to what your feelings on it are? Does is make you feel uncomfortable to take money and providing a fetish service? Or is it the name of ProDomme that bothers you? You do not have to share that if you do not want to, I am being curious.

As to the scenario I mentioned, it is actually a lot grayer than it sounds. The woman was in fact a ProDomme who specialized on overnight latex bondage (one of my favorite things). I was courting her to be my Domme and not as a ProDomme. There was also a third dynamic in which we discussed combining our dungeons for her ProDomme business and I would help run the business. Initially she wanted me at her dungeon for a weekend (no money was to be involved for this) to see if we clicked and to talk out details. This changed to a getaway weekend as we both worked a lot of hours. I did not mind paying for the weekend, I simply viewed as a vacation I needed anyway even if nothing came of it. In the end the weekend getaway fell through. I will not go into that here as that gets away from the intent of this thread.

My intent here is to show how gray things can become. I think this is about as gray as it gets. Where is the line from Domme to ProDomme? Is cash to only form of payment to a ProDomme? What about bartering for services? What about gifts/equipment for a dungeon. Many many gray lines exist J

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RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/8/2014 11:05:07 AM

MistressDarkArt

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A long-time friend of mine is a ProDomme and Lifestyle Domme in her mid-50s. For 25 years she's taken clients in person, via phone, and when the internet became accessible has professional websites all over the place. She does pretty well with an established clientele all over the world, and also works part time as a paralegal. She did not cross over kink into her personal relationships, which were profoundly vanilla. A few years ago, she was in the mood to beat someone to get out some frustration over the end of a vanilla relationship, and she picked someone from Craigslist casual encounters to wail on. That had NEVER been her style and I admit I was surprised as hell when she told me about it. Long story short: they married 6 months after they met, are as happy as can be, and she still beats him on a regular basis. He does not pay her directly, but contributes to their household in their agreed-on ratio to his income. She still takes clients (though no longer in person) for her customary fee. He's quite straight, but she tutored him for gay online-only domination through NiteFlirt and similar sites, and they have monthly competitions to see who made the most this way.

Is she a prodomme, lifestyle domme, findomme? Does it matter? She is happy, her husband is happy, her clients are happy, and they see no need to further define it.

What I would point out though, is she doesn't take clients she's not comfortable with, and never has. No amount of money is worth it to her. She has her other job to fill in the gaps. So for the full 'dominant' experience, she would probably recommend to you that since you can't stand him, tell guy #2 to find someone else to fulfill his needs . That is what I'd recommend too if you are looking for how to reconcile this situation to your own comfort level.

Fascinating! Keep us posted!

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Post #: 15

RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/8/2014 11:06:11 AM

NiceButMeanGirl

Posts: 2756
Joined: 11/4/2011
From: Bellingham, WA U.S.A.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mummyman321

NBMG,
I would agree that Sylvere’s syntax is probably more appropriate in the case you stated. But in the end it is still pay for play. I am curious as to what your feelings on it are? Does is make you feel uncomfortable to take money and providing a fetish service? Or is it the name of ProDomme that bothers you? You do not have to share that if you do not want to, I am being curious.

No, it doesn't actually make me feel uncomfortable to take $$ for fetish services. The second guy, he is an obnoxious little shit but he's not actually "creepy." I wouldn't do something that actually made me feel uncomfortable. AND there is no sex involved so I don't have that legal/moral(for me) mess to maneuver. Yes, I guess the part that does bother me is the name "Pro Domme," as it has so many negative connotations for so many people and I just don't want to be put into a box. Boxes are so stifling. lol

NBMG

< Message edited by NiceButMeanGirl -- 1/8/2014 11:08:09 AM >

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Post #: 16

RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/8/2014 1:56:49 PM

mummyman321

Posts: 2102
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Dusseldorf
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NiceButMeanGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: mummyman321

NBMG,
I would agree that Sylvere’s syntax is probably more appropriate in the case you stated. But in the end it is still pay for play. I am curious as to what your feelings on it are? Does is make you feel uncomfortable to take money and providing a fetish service? Or is it the name of ProDomme that bothers you? You do not have to share that if you do not want to, I am being curious.

No, it doesn't actually make me feel uncomfortable to take $$ for fetish services. The second guy, he is an obnoxious little shit but he's not actually "creepy." I wouldn't do something that actually made me feel uncomfortable. AND there is no sex involved so I don't have that legal/moral(for me) mess to maneuver. Yes, I guess the part that does bother me is the name "Pro Domme," as it has so many negative connotations for so many people and I just don't want to be put into a box. Boxes are so stifling. lol

NBMG

NBMG,
Thank you for answering my question. Now I better understand what is the driving reason behind your post.

I do not see ProDomme as a negative connotation but many will. Similar to MDA’s story of her friend I met my wife first as a ProDomme. We hit it off and got married down the road a little bit. We were married for 14 years.

I see a ProDomme is one who offers BDSM services (not including sex) for money as a business. Unfortunately the ProDomme terminology is widely abused and misused. The line between sex for money and BDSM for money is blurred by those who claim they are a ProDomme when they are more of an escort. And then there are those who are both.

The reality is, you get to choose the name you want to call yourself. You know what you are doing and what you are providing. You are the person in charge so you get to decide. Pick your own box :)

ProDomme
Semi ProDomme
Amateur Domme
Part time Domme
Curious Domme
Fetish Domme
Casual Domme
Tenderfoot Domme
Non Professional Domme
Dabbler Domme
Lifestyle Inquisitive Domme
Add your own title Domme :)

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Post #: 17

RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/8/2014 2:12:28 PM

NiceButMeanGirl

Posts: 2756
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From: Bellingham, WA U.S.A.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mummyman321
The reality is, you get to choose the name you want to call yourself. You know what you are doing and what you are providing. You are the person in charge so you get to decide. Pick your own box :)

ProDomme
Semi ProDomme
Amateur Domme
Part time Domme
Curious Domme
Fetish Domme
Casual Domme
Tenderfoot Domme
Non Professional Domme
Dabbler Domme
Lifestyle Inquisitive Domme
Add your own title Domme :)

I guess I would call myself a "Semi ProDomme." lol I do dabble in it but that's not really where my heart lies. I'd much rather have a lifestyle dynamic/relationship but I just dabble in this too, since the opportunity presented itself. I don't make a point of going out and looking for clients but, if they fall into my lap, I'll consider them. I guess you could sort of call me an opportunist too. lol Is that a bad thing?

NBMG

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Post #: 18

RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/8/2014 6:44:38 PM

LorraineCA

Posts: 114
Joined: 12/10/2013
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So, is she a Pro Domme or not?? Where does one "draw the line?"

NiceButMeanGirl, this is a wonderful question because I'm confused on it too. I had one submissive I've been talking to and he wanted me to dominate him for the afternoon. To sweeten the deal he said he would take me to a nice dinner, champaigne, etc. I said great! He then said I was a Pro-Domme because I would have accepted dinner from him for services rendered. He then went on to rant about marriage is just like prostitution: the man pays for sex.

In the "grey area" you are talking about; if a woman accepts dinner with the agreement she will dominate him, is she a Pro-Domme?

(in reply to NiceButMeanGirl)

Post #: 19

RE: Not the Usual Pro Domme Thread - 1/8/2014 6:51:23 PM

Rawni

Posts: 1175
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NiceButMeanGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

Next thing ya know, you'll be taking selfies in the bathroom mirror while making duck lips and flipping the bird, and rewriting your profile so it says "fuck you, losers, pay me!"

OMG no!! NEVER!!!!

NBMG

Okay... this I want to see, just for the joke of it! Do it! Do it!

Send me pics! Now! (hehe) I'm thinking Valentine's Cards.

(in reply to NiceButMeanGirl)

Post #: 20

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