RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge

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Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 1:24:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Rebellion preceded knowledge then. So imperfect creatures are evidence of an imperfect god. Well, when I read it, it seemed to me that God had given them the knowledge of right and wrong. That is why they knew it was wrong to eat of the tree but they decided to reject the knowledge God had given them and decided to choose for themselves what was right and wrong.

MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 1:48:22 PM)
I don't think God had given them knowledge of right and wrong. He actually gave them one rule to follow (don't eat from one specific tree) and they did not seem to have a good understanding or knowledge of why it was wrong; only that God said it. (That DOES sound a bit like religion doesn't it?) quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Rebellion preceded knowledge then. So imperfect creatures are evidence of an imperfect god. Well, when I read it, it seemed to me that God had given them the knowledge of right and wrong. That is why they knew it was wrong to eat of the tree but they decided to reject the knowledge God had given them and decided to choose for themselves what was right and wrong.

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 1:49:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML STDs and the germ theory of disease follow far behind religious control of sex, which in Christianity goes back to the Platonic duality of soul and corpus, the latter being decadent and shameful. So, no cigar. sorry. Well, if you want to argue that God doesn't exist, fine but "based on christanity" which believes God exists, Christianity would not have to wait for mankind "discover" the "germ theory of disease", seeing as God would already know about germs and their effects on mankind he could give them rules that would take those things into consideration. quote: Oh, and children have been abused throughout history, the latest series of events being the shocking and criminal behavior of the churchmen of Catholicism. No excuse there, please. It is a shame that Children have been abused throughout history but that does not mean, that if God exists, that he did not rule against it. As for Catholicism, they seem to have a history of not following God's rules, so why would that be any different with child abuse?

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 2:01:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMJAY I don't think God had given them knowledge of right and wrong. He actually gave them one rule to follow (don't eat from one specific tree) and they did not seem to have a good understanding or knowledge of why it was wrong; only that God said it. (That DOES sound a bit like religion doesn't it?) They "knew" it was wrong. Seeing as they "knew", by definition they had knowledge of right and wrong in the case of the tree. One must realize that Adam and Eve were not children, they were full grown adults and just because the Bible doesn't say what other knowledge they might of had, it might be reasonable to assume that since God spent time with them each day, he taught them more than just one thing.

mnottertail -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 2:10:32 PM)
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. That is what god said (it is written) and that imparts knowledge, but not the knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil, however you want it. They knew they disobeyed their creator. Just as a child knows they disobey their parents. And it would be large assumption to attribute the couple to adulthood, or to childhood. Now as it happened in the account, he said that to Adam before Eve was created. But later talking to the serpent she repeated god's admonition above ....

MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 2:21:42 PM)
They may not have been children "physically" but spiritually they were children. (I mean as far as innocence goes). We can assume a lot of things; but the Bible itself says they did not even "know" that they were naked. It is quite a stretch to believe that they had knowledge of right and wrong when they were not even aware of the obvious. The tree they ate from was called "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil." Genesis 2:17 (that name is not just a coincidence.) The serpent told them if they ate from it they would "know good and evil" Genesis 3:5 (makes sense considering the name of the tree) The Bible says when they ate from it, "their eyes were opened;" which means that prior to this; their eyes were NOT open. Genesis 3:7 After eating they realized that they were naked for the first time and that there was a problem with being naked. Genesis 3:7 All the information the Bible gives points to the fact that they did not know (had not opened their eyes to) good and evil until after they ate from the tree. quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: MsMJAY I don't think God had given them knowledge of right and wrong. He actually gave them one rule to follow (don't eat from one specific tree) and they did not seem to have a good understanding or knowledge of why it was wrong; only that God said it. (That DOES sound a bit like religion doesn't it?) They "knew" it was wrong. Seeing as they "knew", by definition they had knowledge of right and wrong in the case of the tree. One must realize that Adam and Eve were not children, they were full grown adults and just because the Bible doesn't say what other knowledge they might of had, it might be reasonable to assume that since God spent time with them each day, he taught them more than just one thing.

MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 2:25:44 PM)
Exactly. When you first tell a child not to touch a hot stove. They know you don't want them to touch it. But until they get burned by it they don't understand WHY you don't want them to touch it. That's what happened in the creation story. They didn't understand why until after they were burned. quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. That is what god said (it is written) and that imparts knowledge, but not the knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil, however you want it. They knew they disobeyed their creator. Just as a child knows they disobey their parents. And it would be large assumption to attribute the couple to adulthood, or to childhood. Now as it happened in the account, he said that to Adam before Eve was created. But later talking to the serpent she repeated god's admonition above ....

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 3:03:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. That is what god said (it is written) and that imparts knowledge, but not the knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil, however you want it. They knew they disobeyed their creator. Just as a child knows they disobey their parents. And it would be large assumption to attribute the couple to adulthood, or to childhood. Now as it happened in the account, he said that to Adam before Eve was created. But later talking to the serpent she repeated god's admonition above .... They were adults so why is it a "large assumption" to say they were adults? They knew it was wrong to eat of the tree, so by definition they had knowledge of right and wrong, at least in the case of eating of the tree..

mnottertail -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 3:09:14 PM)
Under what auspices were they adults? Hell they were less than a week old. They had knowledge that god didnt want them to eat of the fruit of that tree, but no more than a child understands death did they, in fact, until they came along and then ate, since nobody much had died before them that we are aware of.

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 3:21:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMJAY They may not have been children "physically" but spiritually they were children. (I mean as far as innocence goes). We can assume a lot of things; but the Bible itself says they did not even "know" that they were naked. It is quite a stretch to believe that they had knowledge of right and wrong when they were not even aware of the obvious. Spiritual children? They walked with God every day and that makes them spiritual children? Are you trying to tell people at Collarme that being naked is wrong? If it was wrong in God's eyes, he would clothed them when he created them but it was not wrong and God only clothed them after they decided for themselves it was wrong to be naked. quote: The tree they ate from was called "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil." Genesis 2:17 (that name is not just a coincidence.) The serpent told them if they ate from it they would "know good and evil" Genesis 3:5 (makes sense considering the name of the tree) The Bible says when they ate from it, "their eyes were opened;" which means that prior to this; their eyes were NOT open. Genesis 3:7 After eating they realized that they were naked for the first time and that there was a problem with being naked. Genesis 3:7 And Satan never lied to anyone. The meaning of the name of the tree was that if they ate of it they would thus be rejecting God's standards of "good and evil" and they would be deciding for themselves what is "good and evil", thus developing their own "knowledge of Good and Evil" and there was no problem with being naked but they make it so with their "new knowledge". quote: All the information the Bible gives points to the fact that they did not know (had not opened their eyes to) good and evil until after they ate from the tree. As I have pointed out it seems that "All the information the Bible gives" does not point to the fact that they did not know. Case in point, they knew that it was wrong or evil to eat of the tree and even told Satan that.

mnottertail -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 3:25:41 PM)
well, of course that is all very flawed, and rather fanciful, even though we are discussing a parable. They said to the serpent that god told them they should not eat of the tree or on that day they would die. The serpent said bullshit, he was given a hell of a sentence as well, all are punished. Women to be ruled by their desires. Men to sweat to eat. And snakes to slither and be trampled under foot, and be reviled. And all the motherfuckers die. It would seem that the serpent has the harsher sentence, or there is an unjust god in the version you pander.

MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 3:26:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. That is what god said (it is written) and that imparts knowledge, but not the knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil, however you want it. They knew they disobeyed their creator. Just as a child knows they disobey their parents. And it would be large assumption to attribute the couple to adulthood, or to childhood. Now as it happened in the account, he said that to Adam before Eve was created. But later talking to the serpent she repeated god's admonition above .... They were adults so why is it a "large assumption" to say they were adults? They knew it was wrong to eat of the tree, so by definition they had knowledge of right and wrong, at least in the case of eating of the tree.. The Bible does not say they knew it was wrong. In fact Genesis 3:6 says that they (or at least the woman) believed that eating from the tree was a good thing and the right thing to do.

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 3:26:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMJAY Exactly. When you first tell a child not to touch a hot stove. They know you don't want them to touch it. But until they get burned by it they don't understand WHY you don't want them to touch it. That's what happened in the creation story. They didn't understand why until after they were burned. Again you keep talking about them as if they were children, they were not, they were full grown adults with all the mental faculties of full grown adult and had no need "to touch a hot stove" to understand, any more you or I need to.

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 3:31:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail well, of course that is all very flawed, and rather fanciful, even though we are discussing a parable. They said to the serpent that god told them they should not eat of the tree or on that day they would die. The serpent said bullshit, he was given a hell of a sentence as well, all are punished. Women to be ruled by their desires. Men to sweat to eat. And snakes to slither and be trampled under foot, and be reviled. And all the motherfuckers die. It would seem that the serpent has the harsher sentence, or there is an unjust god in the version you pander. Of course that is all very flawed, and rather fanciful? Perhaps but it would be nice to show your proof before you say so. With that in mind I will follow your lead and say that your "summary" is all "very flawed, and rather fanciful". ;-)

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 3:33:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMJAY quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. That is what god said (it is written) and that imparts knowledge, but not the knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil, however you want it. They knew they disobeyed their creator. Just as a child knows they disobey their parents. And it would be large assumption to attribute the couple to adulthood, or to childhood. Now as it happened in the account, he said that to Adam before Eve was created. But later talking to the serpent she repeated god's admonition above .... They were adults so why is it a "large assumption" to say they were adults? They knew it was wrong to eat of the tree, so by definition they had knowledge of right and wrong, at least in the case of eating of the tree.. The Bible does not say they knew it was wrong. In fact Genesis 3:6 says that they (or at least the woman) believed that eating from the tree was a good thing and the right thing to do. Of course the fact that eating the fruit would mean their death was a "good thing".

MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 3:36:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: MsMJAY They walked with God every day and that makes them spiritual children? They couldn't figure out they didn't have on clothes. Maturity is hardly the argument one could make here. And I missed the verses where it said that they walked with God every day. Also missed the verses where he gave them all of this spiritual knowledge that you speak of. If you want to make that part up that's fine, but it leaves the door open for everyone to just make up what they want to and claim its in the Bible. Are you trying to tell people at Collarme that being naked is wrong? If it was wrong in God's eyes, he would clothed them when he created them but it was not wrong and God only clothed them after they decided for themselves it was wrong to be naked. I am telling you what the Bible says. The Bible says they did not realize that they were naked or have a problem with it until after they ate off the tree. Which means the did not have knowledge of it. quote: The tree they ate from was called "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil." Genesis 2:17 (that name is not just a coincidence.) The serpent told them if they ate from it they would "know good and evil" Genesis 3:5 (makes sense considering the name of the tree) The Bible says when they ate from it, "their eyes were opened;" which means that prior to this; their eyes were NOT open. Genesis 3:7 After eating they realized that they were naked for the first time and that there was a problem with being naked. Genesis 3:7 And Satan never lied to anyone. The meaning of the name of the tree was that if they ate of it they would thus be rejecting God's standards of "good and evil" and they would be deciding for themselves what is "good and evil", thus developing their own "knowledge of Good and Evil" and there was no problem with being naked but they make it so with their "new knowledge". Again if you want to just make that up, fine. But that is not what the Bible actually says. The Bible says "their eyes were opened" when they ate off the tree. Not prior to eating off the tree. As I have pointed out it seems that "All the information the Bible gives" does not point to the fact that they did not know. Case in point, they knew that it was wrong or evil to eat of the tree and even told Satan that. They did not tell Satan that it was wrong. They told him what God said. Eve made no mention of right or wrong in Genesis 3:2-3. She only tried to repeat what she thought God had said.

MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 3:40:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles Of course the fact that eating the fruit would mean their death was a "good thing". I am not telling you what I think. This is what the Bible says. Genesis 3:6- "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was pleasant to the eye and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof." The BIBLE (not me) says she thought it was a good thing.

Apocalypso -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 3:41:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer FR I tend not to believe that any religion was intentionally created in order to control people. But I do believe that the will to power is just to great for religion not to have been used for that purpose. I'd agree with this. Religion is, in my view, the creation of humanity. So it naturally reflects that, both good and bad. Which is why Christianity inspired both crusaders and anti slavery campaigners.

MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 3:45:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: MsMJAY Exactly. When you first tell a child not to touch a hot stove. They know you don't want them to touch it. But until they get burned by it they don't understand WHY you don't want them to touch it. That's what happened in the creation story. They didn't understand why until after they were burned. Again you keep talking about them as if they were children, they were not, they were full grown adults with all the mental faculties of full grown adult and had no need "to touch a hot stove" to understand, any more you or I need to. But the first time we saw a stove someone had to teach us what it was and how dangerous it could be. If you met a full grown person today who had never seen a stove before he would have no knowledge of what it is or the dangers that it could present. That has to be taught. "Full grown" is a lot more than size. It is also the amount of knowledge and wisdom you have learned.

Politesub53 -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 4:01:37 PM)
Regards the question posed by the OP. I dont think it started out that way but it seems to be the result.

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