RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge

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EdBowie -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 6:02:53 PM)
Awww... how cute, a strawman logical fallacy. The threat was that they would die on the day they disobeyed. And don't waste time playing games with the definition of 'day'. So much for that whole 'Shall not bear false witness' thing, hmmm? quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Notice also that the 'you shall surely die' also turned out to be an empty threat... (much like the "Attention all institutions and persons...' warning here on CM...[:D] ) Empty threat? How is that? Have you talked to Adam and Eve lately? quote: Did Adam and Even even know what 'die' meant? Although Mankind was meant to live forever, the animals around them died so yes they had seen death. Also again God being God is a perfect teacher and thus would be able to perfectly teach Adam and Eve what die meant.

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 6:29:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Well, since there is no christian god, and you have said that animals died before god commanded death, you would be horrifically inconsistent. Again you show you have little no or knowledge of the Bible. God didn't command death, death for mankind was the result of what Adam and Eve did but what they did had no effect on the animals thus death was part of their natural life course before the sin. quote: Other than that, you argue suppositions not in accordance with 'the word of god' (which should be perfect, n'est ce pas?) once again you try to make conclusions without any proof. quote: So, yeah, but no. In fact do not go close to water. What can I say, your pool of wisdom seems to be but a wading pool to me. quote: What ad hominem was made that was not by you? Like I said your comment about my being "overfreely shared and pedantically" is a ad hominem, too bad you don't know what it means perhaps you should look it up.

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 6:31:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail And as to your other dare, fine lets test your sinful knowledge. Why did Jesus kill the fig tree? There were no fig on it and so Jesus killed it so he could teach his disciple a lesson. why do you ask?

vincentML -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 6:34:55 PM)
quote: Well, if you want to argue that God doesn't exist, fine but "based on christanity" which believes God exists, Christianity would not have to wait for mankind "discover" the "germ theory of disease", seeing as God would already know about germs and their effects on mankind he could give them rules that would take those things into consideration. If God is the Creator of life than he is responsible for the existence of pathogens which are harmful to humans. Giving rules to humans does not absolve god from responsibility for the suffering he imposed on humankind. He is either malevolent or impotent. I don't recall anything in the Commandments that says "Thou Shalt Not suffer Germs." quote: It is a shame that Children have been abused throughout history but that does not mean, that if God exists, that he did not rule against it. Innocent children continue today to suffer pain and death from earthquakes, tsunamis, tornados, hurricanes, volcanos, and pathogens. God is either merciless or without power. Maybe he is Evil.

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 6:43:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Awww... how cute, a strawman logical fallacy. The threat was that they would die on the day they disobeyed. And don't waste time playing games with the definition of 'day'. Then why are you trying to play games. You are the one with the strawman, trying to change the argument to suit you instead of dealing with it as is. If you have done your homework, you should know that the original languages of the Bible did not include English. So the word used meant time period and could mean 24hrs or thousands of years. In fact at one place in the Bible it says that a thousand years is but a "day" in God's eye and interestingly Adam and Eve lived less than a thousand years. quote: So much for that whole 'Shall not bear false witness' thing, hmmm? Yeah how about that.

playfulotter -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 6:50:48 PM)
In the end...Religion is kind of vague about what it means and such......as there are no real answers and you just spin your wheels making up things that might fit in the scheme of things....hmm..otherwise why not indoctrinate people into a certain religion after their brains are fully formed...late teens or so..but it has to be earlier..when it it is the opposite.

MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 7:20:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: MsMJAY I am not telling you what I think. This is what the Bible says. Genesis 3:6- "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was pleasant to the eye and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof." The BIBLE (not me) says she thought it was a good thing. Actually you are telling me what you think, you think because she said it was a good thing, it was a good thing, the Bible does not say it was a good thing but only that she said it was a good thing. I never said it was good thing. (I never even thought it so I am not sure how you drew that false conclusion.) I only quoted the Bible. The Bible stated that Eve believed the tree to be good. According to scripture that was her thinking. DEFINITELY not mine. Also you might ask yourself what did she think of it before Satan talked to her, what made her change her mind about it? I have no way of knowing what she thought prior to then, since the Bible gave no indication of that. It only stated what she said to the serpent and what she believed. If a con man convinces you that you just bought a $1500 ring from him for $20, you may think it's a good thing too but you're not going to think that for long, when it starts to turn your finger green. Thank you. That was the point I was making. They did not KNOW good and evil (ie the ring was fake) until AFTER they ate off the tree (the finger turned green.)

EdBowie -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 7:26:41 PM)
There is no argument, and you can't provide a single direct quote where I've written any such thing. But then again, you aren't here for honest discourse, are you? As far as your naturam transcendentem, quae manetgames, that dishonest ruse is even older than Aramaic. You've got nothing. quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Awww... how cute, a strawman logical fallacy. The threat was that they would die on the day they disobeyed. And don't waste time playing games with the definition of 'day'. Then why are you trying to play games. You are the one with the strawman, trying to change the argument to suit you instead of dealing with it as is. If you have done your homework, you should know that the original languages of the Bible did not include English. So the word used meant time period and could mean 24hrs or thousands of years. In fact at one place in the Bible it says that a thousand years is but a "day" in God's eye and interestingly Adam and Eve lived less than a thousand years. quote: So much for that whole 'Shall not bear false witness' thing, hmmm? Yeah how about that.

EdBowie -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 7:28:53 PM)
That's why it is the logical successor to superstition as a way to con the masses. quote: ORIGINAL: playfulotter In the end...Religion is kind of vague about what it means and such......as there are no real answers and you just spin your wheels making up things that might fit in the scheme of things....hmm..otherwise why not indoctrinate people into a certain religion after their brains are fully formed...late teens or so..but it has to be earlier..when it it is the opposite.

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 7:31:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML If God is the Creator of life than he is responsible for the existence of pathogens which are harmful to humans. Giving rules to humans does not absolve god from responsibility for the suffering he imposed on humankind. He is either malevolent or impotent. I don't recall anything in the Commandments that says "Thou Shalt Not suffer Germs." Innocent children continue today to suffer pain and death from earthquakes, tsunamis, tornados, hurricanes, volcanos, and pathogens. God is either merciless or without power. Maybe he is Evil. Okay, there is no God, now what are you going to do, who are you going to blame for these things. Pathogens, isn't it man's fault for not using simple health measures. Even hurricane Katrina has been called a man made disaster because it was known for years that many things had to done to protect the city but were not done. Who's fault is that men live on the side of volcanoes and on earthquake fault lines. Isn't it about time that people like you start standing up, taking responsibility for your own "sins" and stop tying to blame a God that doesn't exist?

MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 7:42:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: MsMJAY But the first time we saw a stove someone had to teach us what it was and how dangerous it could be. If you met a full grown person today who had never seen a stove before he would have no knowledge of what it is or the dangers that it could present. That has to be taught. "Full grown" is a lot more than size. It is also the amount of knowledge and wisdom you have learned. And that is why God taught them and that is another thing, do you really think God is incapable of teaching his children properly? Show me the scripture where it said God taught them? That is not in the Bible. You invalidate Christianity and the Bible itself when you make up something and just add it on to what is in the Bible. It lends credence to the belief that the Bible is "just a book of made up fairy tales" when believers do that. (Assuming you are a believer.)

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 7:47:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie There is no argument, and you can't provide a single direct quote where I've written any such thing. But then again, you aren't here for honest discourse, are you? As far as your naturam transcendentem, quae manetgames, that dishonest ruse is even older than Aramaic. You've got nothing. quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Awww... how cute, a strawman logical fallacy. The threat was that they would die on the day they disobeyed. And don't waste time playing games with the definition of 'day'. Then why are you trying to play games. You are the one with the strawman, trying to change the argument to suit you instead of dealing with it as is. If you have done your homework, you should know that the original languages of the Bible did not include English. So the word used meant time period and could mean 24hrs or thousands of years. In fact at one place in the Bible it says that a thousand years is but a "day" in God's eye and interestingly Adam and Eve lived less than a thousand years. quote: So much for that whole 'Shall not bear false witness' thing, hmmm? Yeah how about that. Really then why didn't address what I said instead this piece of drivel. The actual truth is that they died the same "day" but you endeavored to make it a "straw man" by implying that that "day" had to be shorter than their lives. Quite honestly you seem to be the one that isn't "here for honest discourse" and it seems that except for anger it is you that has nothing to say.

bubbabarrett31 -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 8:11:06 PM)
so knowledge can become evil whch would make it a sin, that is "if" it becomes evil. So too much knowledge would be a sin, where would the cut off be? what /would be the point where knowledge turned "from" good into evil. god forbid them from eating from the tree that bare thefruit known as "knowledge of good and evil" dont you think that it made them courious, being that they only knew good and every thing they ever experinced was good or not harmful. so when he propsed to them that there was something that went along with good did they not assume that this thing called evil was also something good. i.e. peanut butter "and" jelly.... they never new bad they never knew evil they only knew good and knew it well everything in existance, at the time, was good. so the serpent was a cop out for religion to control. it was something to put blame on, so there is no "spent" or satin the bible says so a few verses earlier in gen. efectively.when it says thet there was no evil. so no evil no bad no satin only god. so evil was created to control people, to rule the masses, to conform humans into an existance. god is evil god is also good. god is the satin and the almighity knowledge of this is the reason religion was created because that would impose order of the masses. so knowledge is evil, is a correct statement, right

LookieNoNookie -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 8:28:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31 which came first religion or knowledge?is knowledge power? is knowledge something we seek? is knowledge something we strive to improve in everyday life? is knoowledge the root of evil? why do people want to know more? how does knowledge relate to religion? does knowledge begin in religion? what does your religion say about knowledge? of some one wants to chat i'd welcome coments i urge you to voice your opinion on the subject. i got into the conversation with a friend the other day and we stayed up for two days talking about the subject and came up empty its a very confusing topic and i want serious responses only. how do you feel what are your opinions I don't know.can anything be known?what if it can't be?should we diverge?oh no...maybe more or less.I like punctuation.can't have it it would seem.but I want it.can't have it.what if I do?no.

MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 8:53:59 PM)
Knowledge is not evil, does not “become” evil and too much knowledge is not evil. What you choose to do with knowledge is what is or is not evil. Let's say that I (as God) tell you that you as an individual with freewill you can choose as you will. Then I lock you in a castle and remove anything that I disagree with. You are no longer free to choose. You are not CHOOSING to do good. You are forced to only do what I want. In order for man to "choose" good, there had to at least be an alternative option. Otherwise all God created was a couple of slaves. And lets not forget that in this same story there was another tree in the garden called “The Tree of Life.” According to the Bible had they eaten off of that tree they would have lived forever. So along with the tree that God essentially called “death” he also gave them a tree that he called “life.” The choice was up to them which fruit to eat. (Again God giving man freewill.) God is not evil. God is a creator. What people do with His creations is what defines good and evil in us. God never called the tree evil. Eating from the tree was not the sin. It only opened the door to the knowledge of sin to man. From that time on their innocence was lost and from then on they had to choose between good and evil. God did not create religion. Religion is entirely a man made concept. In that sense, yes it is an attempt to control people and knowledge.

bubbabarrett31 -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 9:03:46 PM)
Sorry i started this conversation on a tablet with the tuch screen. If the grammer was a problem, now I'll try to fix that. I still have many question on the subject and don't want my lac of knowledge of sentence structure to over come the quest to find an answer. I have this stuff coming into my head and i'm trying to get it out and on screen befor i lose the thought because i dont want to get confussed. (see hoe that statement ran together, but you just read it as if someone is talking in a monotone and explanatory way) any way please continue on the subject at hand if you will

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 9:08:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMJAY I never said it was good thing. (I never even thought it so I am not sure how you drew that false conclusion.) I only quoted the Bible. The Bible stated that Eve believed the tree to be good. According to scripture that was her thinking. DEFINITELY not mine. You are correct, after checking the thread, I can see why I got the impression you had but you did not. I have no way of knowing what she thought prior to then, since the Bible gave no indication of that. It only stated what she said to the serpent and what she believed.Fair enough. If a con man convinces you that you just bought a $1500 ring from him for $20, you may think it's a good thing too but you're not going to think that for long, when it starts to turn your finger green. Thank you. That was the point I was making. They did not KNOW good and evil (ie the ring was fake) until AFTER they ate off the tree (the finger turned green.) Actually no, they did know what as truly good and evil before eating but a con man (Satan) deceived Eve, otherwise she would not have eaten but the Bible says that Adam was not deceived. (1 Timothy 2:14) So Adam knew before he ate that it was wrong.

bubbabarrett31 -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 9:26:46 PM)
Knowledge is not evil, does not “become” evil and too much knowledge is not evil. What you choose to do with knowledge is what is or is not evil. Let's say that I (as God) tell you that you as an individual with freewill you can choose as you will. Then I lock you in a castle and remove anything that I disagree with. You are no longer free to choose. You are not CHOOSING to do good. You are forced to only do what I want. In order for man to "choose" good, there had to at least be an alternative option. Otherwise all God created was a couple of slaves. And lets not forget that in this same story there was another tree in the garden called “The Tree of Life.” According to the Bible had they eaten off of that tree they would have lived forever. So along with the tree that God essentially called “death” he also gave them a tree that he called “life.” The choice was up to them which fruit to eat. (Again God giving man freewill.) God is not evil. God is a creator. What people do with His creations is what defines good and evil in us. God never called the tree evil. Eating from the tree was not the sin. It only opened the door to the knowledge of sin to man. From that time on their innocence was lost and from then on they had to choose between good and evil. God did not create religion. Religion is entirely a man made concept. In that sense, yes it is an attempt to control people and knowledge so didn't god also instruct them not to eat from the tree of life also, because eternal life would make them godly and he would not create some thing that was his equal it's not possible to "create an equal". because a you create it you are better than it you made it right. so if they did eat from the tree of life they would of been banished from the garden also, so god actually did not give them a choice. did he create slaves, and because religion was created to control man, he is the master and man is his slave. the free will is not a concept god would of given to something he created. it was imposed by the people who created religion to make the people think they had a choice. when actually no matter which choice they made it had the same results. its like a parallel universe there was decision made but it had only one result, that was , the next thing he had planned. and there would be no way of knowing, "what if", because there is no way to go back. if you could go back and change the decision you made then that means you would have gained knowledge of the situation and could change your decision so that would make that level of knowledge a sin because it would make you more godly. if you could change his plan. so free will is out the window now. and i'm back to saying we are slaves to god and not servants right. so knowledge is a sin correct

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 9:27:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31 so knowledge can become evil whch would make it a sin, that is "if" it becomes evil. So too much knowledge would be a sin, where would the cut off be? what /would be the point where knowledge turned "from" good into evil. god forbid them from eating from the tree that bare thefruit known as "knowledge of good and evil" dont you think that it made them courious, being that they only knew good and every thing they ever experinced was good or not harmful. so when he propsed to them that there was something that went along with good did they not assume that this thing called evil was also something good. i.e. peanut butter "and" jelly.... they never new bad they never knew evil they only knew good and knew it well everything in existance, at the time, was good. so the serpent was a cop out for religion to control. it was something to put blame on, so there is no "spent" or satin the bible says so a few verses earlier in gen. efectively.when it says thet there was no evil. so no evil no bad no satin only god. so evil was created to control people, to rule the masses, to conform humans into an existance. god is evil god is also good. god is the satin and the almighity knowledge of this is the reason religion was created because that would impose order of the masses. so knowledge is evil, is a correct statement, right I don't believe that it is the amount that makes knowledge evil but the use that it is put to that makes it evil. The knowledge of how to influence people is good right up to the point it is used to make people do what is evil. It seems that you are putting forth the dichotomy of Good and Evil, that you can't have one without the other and I'm not sure that is true. To me that is a little like saying you have to die to truly enjoy life, the problem is when you're dead you no longer have life to enjoy.

EdBowie -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/8/2014 9:40:58 PM)
In other words, you failed to provide any such direct quote, you failed to grasp, much less answer the rational questions that other people are asking you, and are running on pure projection and impotent trolling. quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie There is no argument, and you can't provide a single direct quote where I've written any such thing. But then again, you aren't here for honest discourse, are you? As far as your naturam transcendentem, quae manetgames, that dishonest ruse is even older than Aramaic. You've got nothing. quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Awww... how cute, a strawman logical fallacy. The threat was that they would die on the day they disobeyed. And don't waste time playing games with the definition of 'day'. Then why are you trying to play games. You are the one with the strawman, trying to change the argument to suit you instead of dealing with it as is. If you have done your homework, you should know that the original languages of the Bible did not include English. So the word used meant time period and could mean 24hrs or thousands of years. In fact at one place in the Bible it says that a thousand years is but a "day" in God's eye and interestingly Adam and Eve lived less than a thousand years. quote: So much for that whole 'Shall not bear false witness' thing, hmmm? Yeah how about that. Really then why didn't address what I said instead this piece of drivel. The actual truth is that they died the same "day" but you endeavored to make it a "straw man" by implying that that "day" had to be shorter than their lives. Quite honestly you seem to be the one that isn't "here for honest discourse" and it seems that except for anger it is you that has nothing to say.

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