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RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 12:32:44 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
First, there is good evidence of a genetic component to sexual preference.
Why are these alleles passed down and some even say increasing?
It's quite simple. For centuries, religious and social persecution forced gays and lesbians into heterosexual relationships. They may have been utterly miserable but these relationships frequently produced children. These children would typically be straight but would carry the genetic component.

By fighting against gay marriage, the Religious extremists are unthinkingly (how unusual) promoting the reproduction and even increase of these alleles.

Religious extremists, if you want same sex behavior to decrease over time, then you need to support same sex marriage.
Allow these people to marry the one they love.
Rejoice in their happiness.
What they do or don't do in the bedroom is no one's business but theirs.
Love the sinner and, if you must, only hate the sin.
Remember, same sex relationships don't produce biological children.

Give these people the same rights, responsibilities and wishes for happiness that you give your heterosexual friends.

Your life and spirit will be richer for it and in a few dozen generations, maybe the behavior you hate will decrease.

I agree. I have said something quite like these things forever.

Gay marriage has legal and parental benefits.

I do am opposed to gay men marrying a female and having children.

However, in non-circumcising populations promiscuous gay and bisexual men do have an important function in transmitting sexually transmitted diseases, which benefit the evolution of those populations. So let's not make a habit of all gay men marrying each other.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 12:35:07 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Oh, but lets do, since its important and beneficial.

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RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 12:39:13 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
...letting truly gays marry will make no difference at all because truly gay men on the whole will not have sex with women marriage or not... Where Bi's will anyway... so marriage will have no bearing on the passing of genes...Even IF there is a gay gene.

You are wrong.


_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 12:45:16 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
To the best of my knowledge, the only thing that has been established with certainty is that the incidence of male homosexuality has a significant correlation with birth order. The more older male siblings, the higher the probability of homosexuality becomes. And as the hyper-religious tend to have large families, the irony here is that they may be the primary source of the gays they abhor!

I also recall that the older the mother when giving birth, the higher the chance that the male child will be gay. So for these homosexuals there is no gay gene: it is a function of the hormonal condition of the mother.

For other homosexuals, though,...


_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 1:26:10 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

I actually know quite a few gay women who are now in their 60's, but when they were in their 20's, felt obliged to marry men and have children. The OP's point is to allow gay marriage, and this won't happen.


Oh but it would... these women want children... it has nothing to do with marriage.

Butch

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RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 1:34:37 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

To the best of my knowledge, the only thing that has been established with certainty is that the incidence of male homosexuality has a significant correlation with birth order. The more older male siblings, the higher the probability of homosexuality becomes. And as the hyper-religious tend to have large families, the irony here is that they may be the primary source of the gays they abhor!


A second evolutionary theory about fitness and sexual orientation hypothesizes
that homosexual orientation may increase “fitness” if it prevents
later-born sons of large sibships to engage in unproductive competition
with their older siblings (Miller 2000). The literature suggests some support
for this idea, on first glance. Specifically, a relationship between birth order, or,
more precisely, number of older brothers, and sexual orientation
of males has been reported in a series of papers (Blanchard 1997; Blanchard
and Bogaert 1996a, 1996b; Purcell, Blanchard, and Zucker 2000;
Bogaert 2000). No such effect was found for females. But the evidence
and mechanism proposed are extremely weak. These studies work with
nonrepresentative samples, and/or indirect reports on siblings’ sexual orientation
and suffer from the same biases as noted above in considering
the genetic influence literature. Furthermore, the mechanism by which
such an effect is thought to be activated seems somewhat far-fetched.
Specifically, mothers are hypothesized to carry a “biological memory” (in
the form of an H-Y antigen) of how many sons they have carried, which
leads to changes in the intrauterine environment that activate “feminization
” of younger sons (Blanchard and Klassen 1997; Miller 2000).

In this article, we test the second evolutionary model directly and find
no support for an association between birth-order and same-sex attraction.


Not at all established with certainty.

SOURCE

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RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 1:39:37 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

I also recall that the older the mother when giving birth, the higher the chance that the male child will be gay. So for these homosexuals there is no gay gene: it is a function of the hormonal condition of the mother.

Doubtful really and just one step away from the discredited psychological pathology that overbearing mothers were contributors to male homosexuality. Would love to have citations behind your recall, Rule.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 1:45:29 PM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		It has been quite some time that I read that; maybe in the eighties in New Scientist.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 2:24:58 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Not at all established with certainty.

Your source is an outdated reference. Try to catch up.

The study confirms previous reports ... that homosexual males are more often later-born than first-born and that they have more older brothers than older sisters. ~Proceedings of the Royal Society, Biological Sciences

Later fraternal birth order (FBO) is a well-established correlate of homosexuality in human males and may implicate a maternal immunization response in the feminization of male sexuality. ~Biology Letters

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/29/2014 3:00:41 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 2:36:19 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Allow these people to marry the one they love.
Rejoice in their happiness.
What they do or don't do in the bedroom is no one's business but theirs.
Love the sinner and, if you must, only hate the sin.
Remember, same sex relationships don't produce biological children.


This is what it boils down to. If the RR were to allow gay marriage and rejoice in their happiness, that would be an acceptance of homosexuality. The struggle against gay marriage isn't against the individuals, but against homosexuality. Your words even: "Love the sinner... hate the sin."

If homosexuality is wrong (according to the doctrines of the faith), why would a church of that faith accept gay marriage? Personally, I think each faith should mind it's own business. If gay marriage is against it's articles of faith, then it shouldn't support gay marriage. But, if a faith doesn't prohibit homosexuality, it should be perfectly acceptable that it support gay marriage. But, neither faith should dictate what the other support or not support.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 4:12:48 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Not at all established with certainty.

Your source is an outdated reference. Try to catch up.

The study confirms previous reports ... that homosexual males are more often later-born than first-born and that they have more older brothers than older sisters. ~Proceedings of the Royal Society, Biological Sciences

Later fraternal birth order (FBO) is a well-established correlate of homosexuality in human males and may implicate a maternal immunization response in the feminization of male sexuality. ~Biology Letters

K.



Actually no. You are still out of date. The Bearman and Bruckner study I cited earlier and this study by Francis both follow the two you just cited. The science is far from settled with the certainty you first proposed and not really settled at all. Try not to bruise yourself falling off your mountain top of certainty.
SOURCE

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 4:37:39 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		All studies aside it just seems to me that if homosexuality were predominantly genetic then over the history of mankind it should have eliminated itself… Would not common sense demand this? At least it should keep the number far below the one in five many claim is the ratio today.

I will not deny the possibility of a genetic connection in some cases but I do not believe the majority of homosexuality is the result of a hereditary condition.

Personally…no scientific study claimed…I think the causes will be found to be common influences on brain development in the womb…otherwise homosexuals are born not made. What those influences are…maybe hormonal imbalances at a critical juncture of development…I have no idea.

The gays I know are often the only ones in their family with no common type of upbringing.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 6:21:41 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Your source is an outdated reference. Try to catch up.

The Bearman and Bruckner study I cited earlier and this study by Francis both follow the two you just cited.

The references I cited were from 2004 and 2005, respectively. The Bearman and Bruckner study you linked was from 2002. The hidden clue to this fact lies at the bottom of the first page where the date appears disguised as "March 2002," the meaning of which was possibly obscure to you.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/29/2014 7:04:40 PM >

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RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 7:56:02 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The gays I know are often the only ones in their family with no common type of upbringing.

Fwiw, I had a lesbian aunt, and her elder daughter, my cousin, is also gay. A high school friend was one of two gay sons (out of three) in his family. A lesbian church friend has a gay brother.

It may be worth remembering that being "out" is a relatively recent phenomenon. As more and more queer folks feel comfortable being themselves, we may see more examples of connections within families.

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No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 8:18:53 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
At least it should keep the number far below the one in five many claim is the ratio today.


I've never heard a number anywhere near that high. All the numbers I've seen are between 10% and 1%

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RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 8:26:40 PM   
DominantWoman65


Posts: 386
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Status: offline 		This is why you should support gay marriage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-YCdcnf_P8

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 8:36:12 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Reports and studies are all over the place for the number of homosexuals in the world population... Some studies say 37 percent of men have had a  same sex sexual encounter sometime in their life. Others are much lower...  but even if on the low side say 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 men and women are gay or bisexual then it would not be unusual at all to have more than one gay person in a family and still not be genetic.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 8:50:30 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		You are right... the study I remember was not those that claimed to be gay or bi exclusively but those that admitted some attraction to the same sex  at some time in their lives and even that was extrapolated to estimate those that were too embarrassed to admit those feelings to a surveyor.

I do think a better estimate would be 3.5 percent to 10 percent.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/29/2014 9:15:53 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Reports and studies are all over the place for the number of homosexuals in the world population...

There is such a thing a population genetics. It is wrong to assert that all people belong to the same population.

I am very much interested in the differences re homosexuality (especially of males) between populations.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: The Religious Right should support gay marriage - 1/30/2014 6:11:58 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

The gays I know are often the only ones in their family with no common type of upbringing.

Fwiw, I had a lesbian aunt, and her elder daughter, my cousin, is also gay. A high school friend was one of two gay sons (out of three) in his family. A lesbian church friend has a gay brother.

It may be worth remembering that being "out" is a relatively recent phenomenon. As more and more queer folks feel comfortable being themselves, we may see more examples of connections within families.


I don't know any gay people who are the only ones in their family. At least in the small sample size that is my life there's a 100% correlation for whatever that's worth.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 1/30/2014 6:14:11 AM >

(in reply to dcnovice)
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