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RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 2/9/2014 2:35:40 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal


quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

Would you agree or disagree that within the current vanilla culture, males of lower intelligence rarely ever elevate themselves from "the friend zone" with strong females possessing superior intellect?


If I may opine here until GM can provide you with her own opinion -

- Inferior/superior intellect aside for a moment, those persons who come across as intellectuals can be off-putting or perceived as arrogant. (Which could be true)
- Some people mask their feelings with intellectual discourse. Therefore it makes it harder to connect with such an individual on a heart-to-heart level.
- Women in general express their emotions more easily than men do (except for anger & displeasure, if a people-pleaser). Men in general are more reluctant to reveal their tenderer emotions. Consequently, males have a tendency to look to females for a certain subjective quality of expression, not detached objective reasoning. (To decipher, validate and/or express their feelings for them, in other words)
- Men can feel invalidated if a woman appears to be sparring with them. They live most of their lives in a competitive atmosphere with other men, which is a stressful adrenaline-pumped state. They seek out the company of women for relief from that for the most part.
- It might be more accurate to say men are more inclined to put women in the "friend zone" if they are consistently operating on a mental level with one another, such as on the job, in their business dealings, academia, etc.


Interesting perspectives and observations, most of which I agree with and/or have had similar observations. The only exception is men being inclined to place women into the friend zone when constantly operating on a mental level. I haven't seen or experienced this yet. What I have observed is that if men are physically attracted to women, they tend to avoid placing women into the friend zone. I'm referring to men without strong outside influences, such as happy marriages or jobs that the men don't want to risk losing by creating romantic relationships with co-employees.

quote:

- Intellectual foreplay is practiced by sapiosexuals to engage one another; they find this to be sexually exciting. If you aren't one, this type of foreplay will not fall within your radar and you won't understand what are the rules of the game that is being played.


Though I'm aware of the definition of sapiosexual and do find intelligent women quite appealing, I've never experienced sexual arousal from engaging in intellectual discourse. So you're right, I do not know the rules of the game.

Hey... wait a minute... are you flirting with me here? ...

Seriously though, you placed inferior/superior intellect aside for a moment, but never returned to directly respond to my OP. Your reference to men being more inclined to put women in the "friend zone" if they are consistently operating on a mental level with one another, such as on the job, in their business dealings, academia, etc; applies to a specific minority of the spectrum.

I would also like to expand upon my OP a bit as well. Within the current vanilla culture and assuming all other criteria as being equal; do women of superior intellect have strong tendencies to place men of lesser intellect into the friend zone?

Also, taking this a step further, would your answer to the above question change in any respects, if we were discussing the D/s culture instead of the vanilla culture?

(in reply to FieryOpal)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 2/9/2014 3:23:08 PM   
FieryOpal


Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

Would you agree or disagree that within the current vanilla culture, males of lower intelligence rarely ever elevate themselves from "the friend zone" with strong females possessing superior intellect?


If I may opine here until GM can provide you with her own opinion -
<snip>
...
Hey... wait a minute... are you flirting with me here? ...

Seriously though, you placed inferior/superior intellect aside for a moment, but never returned to directly respond to my OP. Your reference to men being more inclined to put women in the "friend zone" if they are consistently operating on a mental level with one another, such as on the job, in their business dealings, academia, etc; applies to a specific minority of the spectrum.

I would also like to expand upon my OP a bit as well. Within the current vanilla culture and assuming all other criteria as being equal; do women of superior intellect have strong tendencies to place men of lesser intellect into the friend zone?

Also, taking this a step further, would your answer to the above question change in any respects, if we were discussing the D/s culture instead of the vanilla culture?

Rats, was I that transparent? You might be more of a sapiosexual than you give yourself credit for.
Btw, intellectual foreplay doesn't give off the same kind of arousal response(s) in that the arousal locus is on a mental plane before radiating or shifting elsewhere. It takes self-discipline. But it might effect a physiological response by releasing pheromones, and if it goes on long enough or gets heated enough, panties do get wet--never checked whether it alone gives men boners.

I took a circuitous route because I don't like to think in terms of inferior and superior. That would make me an arrogant cunt, which I'm not (or try not to be).

To be perfectly subjective, I do put men in the "friend zone" or "acquaintance zone" if they can't keep up with me. In many respects, though. I expect a man to possess a certain degree of intuitive intelligence, emotional intelligence, as well as abstract or aesthetic sensibilities. Too much factual or strictly linear, logical thinking can actually put a man in the "specialized reference zone." If I need a quick answer to a question, then I'll ring him up; he'd be my Google (nerd) buddy.

As for D/s, the same would apply. I work with a tightly intimate dynamic. For Tops/bottoms, their dynamic is looser (no offense). I don't look for a different kind of man for my D/s LTR than I would for a vanilla non-BDSM LTR. He'd just be the kinkier version.

_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 2/9/2014 4:02:23 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I have no idea what "submissive men" want... or for that matter what anyone else in the world wants. Honestly, I listen to other people's descriptions of their perfect partner quite frequently and I'm baffled.

What I wanted was a life partner. What that meant to me specifically was "someone who could shoulder the load when it had already crushed me." So yeah, "strength" was mandatory. But by strength I mean real strength, not the strut & pose kind. Intelligence don't impress me much. I prefer wisdom.

_____________________________

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"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to asanaambitions)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 2/9/2014 5:05:07 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

What I wanted was a life partner. What that meant to me specifically was "someone who could shoulder the load when it had already crushed me." So yeah, "strength" was mandatory. But by strength I mean real strength, not the strut & pose kind. Intelligence don't impress me much. I prefer wisdom.

I love this.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 2/9/2014 6:39:06 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Rats, was I that transparent?


No... but at my age, I need to look under every stone, just to make sure... lol

quote:

You might be more of a sapiosexual than you give yourself credit for.


I've adapted to some activities that I never even had prior notions of having sexual potential, so I suppose many things are possible.

quote:

Btw, intellectual foreplay doesn't give off the same kind of arousal response(s) in that the arousal focus is on a mental plane before radiating or shifting elsewhere. It takes self-discipline.


Self discipline to delay sexual arousal physiologically, or create it?

quote:

But it might effect a physiological response by releasing pheromones, and if it goes on long enough or gets heated enough, panties do get wet--never checked whether it alone gives men boners.


I must admit that seeing the word "boners" gave me a huge smile. After seeing your words "shifting elsewhere" and "physiological response," I figured you were carefully maintaining political correctness. Thanks for shattering my false notion... lol

As previously mentioned, I have no sapiosexual experience to draw from. Pheromones is a different story, however. Amazing chemistry, that I can certainly relate to.

quote:

I took a circuitous route because I don't like to think in terms of inferior and superior. That would make me an arrogant cunt, which I'm not (or try not to be).


The thought that you may have not just forgotten crossed my mind, especially considering your caliber. My bad, for putting you on the spot.

quote:

To be perfectly subjective, I do put men in the "friend zone" or "acquaintance zone" if they can't keep up with me.


This has been my consistent observation of women's behavior over the years.

quote:

In many respects, though. I expect a man to possess a certain degree of intuitive intelligence, emotional intelligence, as well as abstract or aesthetic sensibilities.


Interesting perspective of the broader picture.

quote:

Too much factual or strictly linear, logical thinking can actually put a man in the "specialized reference zone." If I need a quick answer to a question, then I'll ring him up; he'd be my Google (nerd) buddy.


Uh-oh, I'd better watch my step. This could be as bad as the friend zone! ...

quote:

As for D/s, the same would apply. I work with a tightly intimate dynamic. For Tops/bottoms, their dynamic is looser (no offense). I don't look for a different kind of man for my D/s LTR than I would for a vanilla non-BDSM LTR. He'd just be the kinkier version.


You're speaking from a personal perspective, and not all Dommes would pursue or settle for a vanilla LTR. In your opinion, if you separated the D/s camp from the vanilla camp, would the superior female/inferior male intellect dynamic as it applies to the friend zone differ?

(in reply to FieryOpal)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 2/9/2014 8:13:39 PM   
FieryOpal


Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Perhaps I should put forth the disclaimer that the jury is still out on whether I meet the "strong, smart women" definition. I'd like to believe I am, but these are two separate attributes. I've known women of great strength of character and fortitude, and their desirability to men was a moot point. I've known people of great intellect who don't have a single ounce of common sense. Personally, if I were given the choice, I'd pick common sense over book-smarts any day of the week.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

Self discipline to delay sexual arousal physiologically, or create it?

Interesting question. Delay in some cases. Self-discipline to not appear prurient and send the wrong message to the wrong person. Being a spontaneously organic process, you can't make yourself get turned on or turned off by someone's mind, you can only steer in the direction you want to go. For example, if it would be inappropriate for me to be attracted to someone, I tread carefully. But I would never look at a brilliant man and say to myself, I want to feel more sexually attracted to him.

quote:

Pheromones is a different story, however. Amazing chemistry, that I can certainly relate to.

I brought up pheromones because I never find myself sexually attracted to females. It doesn't ever happen, nor would I want it to. My mind doesn't stray like that.

quote:

My bad, for putting you on the spot.

It's all good.

quote:

Uh-oh, I'd better watch my step. This could be as bad as the friend zone! ...

Yeah, if that's not your end game. Being respected and recognized for your area(s) of expertise isn't too shabby.

quote:

You're speaking from a personal perspective, and not all Dommes would pursue or settle for a vanilla LTR. In your opinion, if you separated the D/s camp from the vanilla camp, would the superior female/inferior male intellect dynamic as it applies to the friend zone differ?

On such a personal subject, I can only speak from my own perspective, and not for other Dommes. I would rather have a male sub who has common sense, good judgment, strength of character, and a loving, devoted disposition. He has to have baseline intelligence, but he doesn't have to be a near-genius. That would be a bonus.

_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 2/9/2014 8:30:22 PM   
GoddessManko


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/6/2013
From: Dante's Inferno
Status: offline 		I completely concur with FieryOpal on this point, she makes many good ones. :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal


quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

Would you agree or disagree that within the current vanilla culture, males of lower intelligence rarely ever elevate themselves from "the friend zone" with strong females possessing superior intellect?


If I may opine here until GM can provide you with her own opinion -

- Inferior/superior intellect aside for a moment, those persons who come across as intellectuals can be off-putting or perceived as arrogant. (Which could be true)
- Some people mask their feelings with intellectual discourse. Therefore it makes it harder to connect with such an individual on a heart-to-heart level.
- Women in general express their emotions more easily than men do (except for anger & displeasure, if a people-pleaser). Men in general are more reluctant to reveal their tenderer emotions. Consequently, males have a tendency to look to females for a certain subjective quality of expression, not detached objective reasoning. (To decipher, validate and/or express their feelings for them, in other words)
- Men can feel invalidated if a woman appears to be sparring with them. They live most of their lives in a competitive atmosphere with other men, which is a stressful adrenaline-pumped state. They seek out the company of women for relief from that for the most part.
- It might be more accurate to say men are more inclined to put women in the "friend zone" if they are consistently operating on a mental level with one another, such as on the job, in their business dealings, academia, etc.
- Intellectual foreplay is practiced by sapiosexuals to engage one another; they find this to be sexually exciting. If you aren't one, this type of foreplay will not fall within your radar and you won't understand what are the rules of the game that is being played.



_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

(in reply to FieryOpal)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 2/9/2014 9:01:15 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I've known people of great intellect who don't have a single ounce of common sense.


Oh yes... those quirky, geeky women can really be a turn on... but I've never met one that had even one dominant bone in her body. Do they even exist?

quote:

Yeah, if that's not your end game. Being respected and recognized for your area(s) of expertise isn't too shabby.


Being respected and recognized for my areas of expertise is all fine and well... unless it's by a woman I have the hots for that has confined me to the "specialized, reference zone."

I'll PM you, to avoid putting you on the spot for some of the other tangents we've opened.

(in reply to FieryOpal)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 2/9/2014 9:10:12 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I completely concur with FieryOpal on this point, she makes many good ones. :)


Indeed, FieryOpal makes many good points.

If I may, are you also a sapiosexual? Please feel free to PM me, if you prefer not to answer publicly.

(in reply to GoddessManko)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 2/10/2014 11:45:10 AM   
FriendlyMuppet


Posts: 171
Joined: 11/16/2010
From: Corpus Christi, Texas
Status: offline 		I'm not sure I understand where the problem stems, unless it has something to do with selection bias, wrong tadpools in the right pool, or what, but as a submissive who has ALWAYS sought out a smart, strong woman, I'd be shocked if THAT is the actual problem. As a pretty intelligent individual myself, I do not find myself in any way threatened by a woman's intelligence, and I found one to be smarter than me I'd be overjoyed. One thing I don't do is compare myself to any woman I'm courting (or being courted by) because I like to see myself as a complement to her, not as an adversary to her. I'll admit that in the past I have been involved with some across the board "challenged" individuals intellectually but quite often it took some time to figure that out, as they were generally pretty good in book smarts but day to day sorts of things sort of took awhile to discover just how complicated they might be for that individual.

Over the years, I've come across some pretty brilliant women, to whom I wish I could have measured up to what they were seeking, but a significant part of the struggle in seeking out a particularly intelligent woman is that she has to be looking for me as well. Sometimes, that's worked out great. Other times, not so well.

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(in reply to asanaambitions)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 4/6/2014 9:02:01 PM   
tallguy4FLR


Posts: 5
Joined: 10/9/2013
Status: offline 		First, I think you're right that desiring submission but not wanting an intelligent partner is pretty inconsistent. I would want an intelligent partner in a vanilla relationship and even more so if they're dominant. After all, how can you be submissive when you're constantly (correctly) second-guessing your dominant partner? It doesn't seem like it would work.

I think part of the reason for the responses you're getting is that men are used to demonstrating value by being clever/funny. If you're clever and funny they have little to offer and feel emasculated (in the bad way). And as you pointed out you're spoiling the fantasy of a domme as a tool for wish-fulfillment. Why some men fantasize about submission but are terrified by strong/competent women in real life is quite the puzzle. But I bet it's somehow rooted in sexual shame and guilt.


(in reply to asanaambitions)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 4/6/2014 9:25:53 PM   
CobaltRose


Posts: 246
Joined: 11/10/2013
Status: offline 		I would love a intelligent, kind domme. You should always be who you are. A sub who tries to manipulate his Mistress is no true sub.

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 5/6/2014 10:08:49 AM   
vestigialwilly


Posts: 12
Joined: 11/13/2008
Status: offline 		I would say that for me it is the complete opposite. I am attracted to intelligence and put off by opposite. One of the challenges I have is that many Dommes on here claim to be intelligent and to seek it but once one communicates the opposite turns out to be the case.

(in reply to asanaambitions)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 5/7/2014 4:08:18 PM   
evesgrden


Posts: 597
Joined: 6/9/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Your idiotdar is broken.




^^^^^^^
THIS



OP, From your words:

You're abrasive.
You're brusque.
You cannot express what's in your head.

I think that besides not picking up on cues that the fellow you're chatting with might not be compatible, there's also a good chance that you are being offensive in some way too. Those 3 traits you identified are not exactly endearing qualities. Add them to interacting with guys who are insecure around intelligence to begin with and it's not likely to end well.




_____________________________

What you permit, you promote.

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 6/10/2014 2:10:59 PM   
jt964


Posts: 3
Joined: 3/10/2014
Status: offline 		I'd think you were talking to the wrong people.

Intelligence, maturity and character are primary parts in any relationship, these should be sought out.

(in reply to asanaambitions)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 6/10/2014 2:22:09 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		~FR~

I have heard a fair number of submissive, dominant, and vanilla women whine in person and on profiles that "men can't handle a smart, strong woman." Nonsense. Most men prefer them. The alternative is dull.

Men are, though, generally not interested in arrogant, conceited, obnoxious, self-centered women.

There are a number of women unable to tell the difference. There is much whining in their future.

(in reply to asanaambitions)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 6/10/2014 2:27:32 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Word.


They generally turn out to be wide and brawling bitches whose no to everything is only exceeded by their poor day to day choices, leading them to have to find a place to live.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 6/11/2014 9:35:23 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Word.


They generally turn out to be wide and brawling bitches whose no to everything is only exceeded by their poor day to day choices, leading them to have to find a place to live.



Then build a goddamn barracks and a galley and put them bitches to work

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 6/11/2014 12:31:35 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		I've known people of great intellect who don't have a single ounce of common sense. Personally, if I were given the choice, I'd pick common sense over book-smarts any day of the week.


Typically great intellect goes hand in glove with common sense...common sense is nothing more than intellect with it's work clothes on.
When I was in the military I had the opportunity to go to fllight school.
Inevitably the common sense vs. "book larnin" topic came up and one of the flight instructors pointed out that every word in the flight manual cost someone his life...thus the book was common sense in print. I do not believe that the two are severable.
That there are people capable of doing so is obvious but most of us don't associate with them

(in reply to FieryOpal)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Are strong, smart women not desirable? - 6/11/2014 3:06:05 PM   
FieryOpal


Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I must have missed those last two sentences when I first read this. They are worth noting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I have no idea what "submissive men" want... or for that matter what anyone else in the world wants. Honestly, I listen to other people's descriptions of their perfect partner quite frequently and I'm baffled.

What I wanted was a life partner. What that meant to me specifically was "someone who could shoulder the load when it had already crushed me." So yeah, "strength" was mandatory. But by strength I mean real strength, not the strut & pose kind. Intelligence don't impress me much. I prefer wisdom.
[Bolding mine]

To: thompsonx, the common sense part would be part and parcel with wisdom, as would intelligence.

Good for you that you associate with sensible and smart folks. However, sometimes there isn't much of a choice in the matter; that's where grinning and bearing it takes on significance. Having a sense of humor becomes essential.

_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 100
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