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RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/14/2014 7:36:40 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

You pay your tuition you get an student Id.
You need a background check to get a permit.

Are you now arguing that a background check should be a voting requirement?

Otherwise, what does it matter so long as each type of ID does the job of establishing the person's identity?


No I was explaining that with a concealed carry permit they verify who you are before you get it.
With a student ID they do not.
This was in response to someone whining that in Texas a permit counts as voter ID and a student ID does not.
Basically we are saying the same thing but the student ID only verifies that you go to the school.
For example foreign students get the same ID as citizens.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/14/2014 7:58:03 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

With a student ID they do not.

How do we know that, especially given the number and variety of U.S. colleges?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/14/2014 8:02:20 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

With a student ID they do not.

How do we know that, especially given the number and variety of U.S. colleges?

Then you will agree that a fair number of schools will do it like the three I went too ( 2 in MO 1 in AL).
If even 10% do it that way it invalidates a student ID for use as a voter ID.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/15/2014 5:01:12 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Then you will agree ...

LOL! Not without evidence, no.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/15/2014 5:06:07 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

How can you argue with anyone who makes firm conclusions contrary to the hard evidence?

It struck me this morning that the "crisis" of voter fraud, requiring a wave of GOP-driven ID laws, is an article of faith, not reason. This thread is the voting-rights equivalent of debating a creationist.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/15/2014 5:59:25 AM   
thishereboi


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Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

If the folks against this idea had put the same energy and time into getting everyone in the country an ID card that they put into crying about how unfair it is, the problem would be solved.

A few thoughts:

(a) This has nothing to do with the point I made.
Nope, it was just a thought I had.


(b) Why should the burden of providing IDs fall on those who oppose voter-disenfranchisement efforts? Isn't it up to those agitating for ID requirements to find a way to provide them without effectively creating poll taxes?
If people are honestly concerned with making sure everyone can vote and not just trying to score points off the other side it wouldn't matter who should be responsible for getting id's to every voter. People need id's to do all kinds of things, not just for voting. What is so terrible about trying to make sure they have one?

(c) Were MLK & co. "crying about how unfair it is" when they opposed discrimination?
No they were not but that has nothing to do with the topic or my post so I am not sure why you even brought it up.



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(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/15/2014 6:19:01 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

(a) This has nothing to do with the point I made.
Nope, it was just a thought I had.

Then why did you quote my post in your reply?


quote:

(b) Why should the burden of providing IDs fall on those who oppose voter-disenfranchisement efforts? Isn't it up to those agitating for ID requirements to find a way to provide them without effectively creating poll taxes?
If people are honestly concerned with making sure everyone can vote and not just trying to score points off the other side it wouldn't matter who should be responsible for getting id's to every voter. People need id's to do all kinds of things, not just for voting. What is so terrible about trying to make sure they have one?

There's nothing "terrible" about helping folks get IDs, and if that had been the GOP's goal, I'd have supported it. But it does strike me as terrible to manipulate voting laws for partisan advantage. Ymmv, I realize.


quote:

(c) Were MLK & co. "crying about how unfair it is" when they opposed discrimination?
No they were not but that has nothing to do with the topic or my post so I am not sure why you even brought it up.

I was curious about whether your dismissive words applied to other efforts to gain/maintain civil rights or just this one.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/15/2014 6:21:33 AM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Gee when I registered to vote, I had forgotten my wallet, but they registered me. Now when I go vote, I have to show my ID so I can vote. That law is pretty new, 1965 I think.

You cant register for any kind of assistance without valid ID, and that law goes back to the 70's.

Under the law passed by Bush, you have to have three forms of ID, one a photo ID, to get a driver's license or state ID.

So would someone please explain to me what the fuck is wrong with requiring a valid ID to register to vote? You need an ID to get a job (federal law for god knows how long, I know I needed a valid ID to get a job as a teenager,) get state and federal assistance, and god knows how many other programs.

It dont have to be a driver's license, but state or federally issued ID.

First the GOP screams voter fraud, then the Dems scream voter fraud, and god knows that both parties have pulled some really neat tricks with elections over the years, and now someone is having a shit fit over something that would prevent voter fraud?

Now I dare you people tell me that humanity is not getting more fucking stupid with each generation.


I've never understood the big deal either.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/15/2014 6:31:08 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

(a) This has nothing to do with the point I made.
Nope, it was just a thought I had.

Then why did you quote my post in your reply?


quote:

(b) Why should the burden of providing IDs fall on those who oppose voter-disenfranchisement efforts? Isn't it up to those agitating for ID requirements to find a way to provide them without effectively creating poll taxes?
If people are honestly concerned with making sure everyone can vote and not just trying to score points off the other side it wouldn't matter who should be responsible for getting id's to every voter. People need id's to do all kinds of things, not just for voting. What is so terrible about trying to make sure they have one?

There's nothing "terrible" about helping folks get IDs, and if that had been the GOP's goal, I'd have supported it. But it does strike me as terrible to manipulate voting laws for partisan advantage. Ymmv, I realize.


quote:

(c) Were MLK & co. "crying about how unfair it is" when they opposed discrimination?
No they were not but that has nothing to do with the topic or my post so I am not sure why you even brought it up.

I was curious about whether your dismissive words applied to other efforts to gain/maintain civil rights or just this one.


a. good point, your post made me think of it but I should have hit reply and done a 'fr'

b. I agree that is is terrible to manipulate laws for partisan advantage but the liberals have not convinced me that that is what is happening.

c. I don't see this as a civil rights issue although it looks like the left is determined to turn it into one.


_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/15/2014 6:47:19 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

You pay your tuition you get an student Id.
You need a background check to get a permit.

Are you now arguing that a background check should be a voting requirement?

Otherwise, what does it matter so long as each type of ID does the job of establishing the person's identity?


No I was explaining that with a concealed carry permit they verify who you are before you get it.
With a student ID they do not.
This was in response to someone whining that in Texas a permit counts as voter ID and a student ID does not.
Basically we are saying the same thing but the student ID only verifies that you go to the school.
For example foreign students get the same ID as citizens.

When did you go to college? When I went I had to verify my identity just like I did when I got my driver's license. Anyone going to a public university and getting the in state resident tuition rate has to verify their residency status so their college ID should be good enough to let them vote.

Furthermore why not simply require whatever verification makes righties happy of at least public university ID's? How come that is not in any of these ID laws? Because these laws aren't about the integrity of the elections but disenfranchising people who don't vote Republican.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 2/15/2014 6:50:00 AM >

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/15/2014 7:02:40 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 191
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/15/2014 7:27:40 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		If you can't win the educated / student vote then.....


----------------

quote:

It struck me this morning that the "crisis" of voter fraud, requiring a wave of GOP-driven ID laws, is an article of faith, not reason. This thread is the voting-rights equivalent of debating a creationist.


This same crowd was spontaneously ejaculating over the gov't shutdown, George Zimmerman's acquittal, all the while yawning and turning a blind eye to the IRAQ war.

Here's the common response that I see: "I don't see anything wrong with it."

Well, if someone told me that my state wanted to enact voter ID laws to prevent fraud -- I'd also think there was nothing wrong with it. On a common sense level it seems perfectly fine. It was not until I read up on what this legislation really means that I changed my mind. Investigative journalists discovered there is no voter fraud to begin with, and that powerful republican interests thought up the laws to help gain a partisan advantage where they operate.

If one's mind is not open to new information and / or you don't read --- voter ID laws are A-OK. Put another way, voter ID laws are low-information voter acceptable, making them right in the republican wheel house.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 2/15/2014 8:02:35 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/15/2014 7:38:31 AM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


If you can't win the educated / student vote then.....



In 2008 and 2012 the educated / student vote gave us...the LIAR IN CHIEF.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/15/2014 7:45:08 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
Exhibit A behind the new laws.

(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/15/2014 12:53:00 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

You pay your tuition you get an student Id.
You need a background check to get a permit.

Are you now arguing that a background check should be a voting requirement?

Otherwise, what does it matter so long as each type of ID does the job of establishing the person's identity?


No I was explaining that with a concealed carry permit they verify who you are before you get it.
With a student ID they do not.
This was in response to someone whining that in Texas a permit counts as voter ID and a student ID does not.
Basically we are saying the same thing but the student ID only verifies that you go to the school.
For example foreign students get the same ID as citizens.

When did you go to college? When I went I had to verify my identity just like I did when I got my driver's license. Anyone going to a public university and getting the in state resident tuition rate has to verify their residency status so their college ID should be good enough to let them vote.

Furthermore why not simply require whatever verification makes righties happy of at least public university ID's? How come that is not in any of these ID laws? Because these laws aren't about the integrity of the elections but disenfranchising people who don't vote Republican.

In the 70s and then again from 01-03
What designator did your college put on IDs for foreign students?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/15/2014 3:40:03 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

You pay your tuition you get an student Id.
You need a background check to get a permit.

Are you now arguing that a background check should be a voting requirement?

Otherwise, what does it matter so long as each type of ID does the job of establishing the person's identity?


No I was explaining that with a concealed carry permit they verify who you are before you get it.
With a student ID they do not.
This was in response to someone whining that in Texas a permit counts as voter ID and a student ID does not.
Basically we are saying the same thing but the student ID only verifies that you go to the school.
For example foreign students get the same ID as citizens.

When did you go to college? When I went I had to verify my identity just like I did when I got my driver's license. Anyone going to a public university and getting the in state resident tuition rate has to verify their residency status so their college ID should be good enough to let them vote.

Furthermore why not simply require whatever verification makes righties happy of at least public university ID's? How come that is not in any of these ID laws? Because these laws aren't about the integrity of the elections but disenfranchising people who don't vote Republican.

In the 70s and then again from 01-03
What designator did your college put on IDs for foreign students?

I wasn't one so how would I know?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/15/2014 3:45:12 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		I wasn't one so how would I know?


To label them as foreigners would open them up to discrimination.
So there wouldn't be one, thus student IDs would be useless.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/15/2014 3:53:59 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

The student ID discussion raises a question I'm curious about. Are gun permits limited to U.S. citizens? How about drivers' licenses?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/15/2014 4:36:38 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

The student ID discussion raises a question I'm curious about. Are gun permits limited to U.S. citizens? How about drivers' licenses?

Not just gun permits but gun ownership.
I was in a gun store where they said they couldn't sell because the buyer was from out of state.
Drivers licenses differ from state to state Ca will give "undocumented aliens" a drivers license which destroys
their value for voter ID, of course CA wouldn't pass voter ID anyway.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: NAACP protesting voter ID requires picture ID - 2/15/2014 4:56:38 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

Finally thought to do what I should have before posting my gun question, which was to check Google.

In terms of gun ownership, I found an ATF document that seems to indicate some instances in which non-citizens can own firearms.

I also found a guide to federal firearms laws that said, "Legal Immigrant on a Visa (permanent resident with a green card) – May possess firearms and ammo; may purchase firearms from an FFL after establishing residency in a State, 27 C.F.R. §478.11, definition for 'State of residence'" (section 12).

As for drivers' licenses, a tardily-fired neuron reminded me that I actually know non-citizens who live here legally and possess licenses.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 200
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