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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/22/2014 6:49:43 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

You my friend, just made my day, thank you


Have no idea what I did, but hey, thank you for the compliment.

This further provides evidence that my political leanings have moderated and the world will end on the second tuesday of next week.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Tkman117)
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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/22/2014 7:23:44 PM   
ChristianDomCA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

My friend I am trying to keep religion out of this thread... not because I don't believe ...not because i don't have my own opinions on why these experiments produce the results they do...but... Because good...evil... morality... can stand on their own with no other explanation needed.

I wish if you want to say God is the reason for the results then please start another thread. I see you are new, at least by the number of posts listed, but when religion is mentioned in a thread like this the original points get lost in a religious anti-religious existence of God argument.

There is nothing wrong with those arguments... they just need their own thread... I hope you understand.

Butch


I didn't know. Thank you for letting me know. I won't talk about religion in this thread.

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Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/23/2014 4:19:06 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Well in answer to your first question, no. Excluding such uses as when we speak of the violence of a storm, in an interpersonal context "violence" is the unjust or excessive use of force.


Who decides what is "unjust" or "excessive"?

quote:


I see no moral problem with employing appropriate force when necessary in order to quell violence. The consequences of not doing so are obvious,


Then I would see it as a practical issue, not a moral issue.

quote:


The operative phrase in your proposal is: "If we conclude." But why would be conclude that?


For the sake of consistency and fairness. If we're talking about moral absolutes existing in a state of nature, then whatever scenario we discuss should involve that situation: No flags, no nations, no governments, no laws, no cops, no badges, no armies, no rules, no language, no politics, no social contract - nothing except humans and their own inborn sense of "right" and "wrong."

quote:


A moral absolute is a standard against which actions can be judged, so what is the standard there? Given the all too real need to stop violence by force on occasion, and the consequences of not doing so, by what standard could we "conclude" that not doing so is moral?


By the same standard Gandhi and others used, sometimes called "turning the other cheek."

quote:


And what would be "moral" about such a standard? You know the old saying about good men doing nothing.

K.[/font][/size]


It would be moral according to some standards, but admittedly, it would be impractical. Also, it couldn't possibly be absolute morality if it's only done "on occasion." It would either have to apply all the time or none of the time. There is no "in between" or "it depends" in a world of absolutes.

What you're talking about are practical considerations, not moral considerations. If there is some kind of moral "instinct" that we're born with (and I'm not saying there is), then at the very least, it would run into conflict with other internal instincts, such as our instinct to survive.



(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/23/2014 1:15:26 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

You are comparing something that is measurable to something that is a debatable value, the concrete with the abstract.

Well silly me. And here I thought studies finding a sense of fairness in infants and a capacity for empathy wired into our brains were reporting something measurable.



As I recall in the last study you presented the investigators cautioned against leaping to conclusions about genetic causation. There were no controls for early childhood modeling of parent behavior. And certainly no discovery for definitive genetic determiners to support your claim for empathy or sense of fairness wired into our brains. They only showed behaviors taking place during a time of optimal brain plasticity. What is your definition of 'wired into our brains?' Do you even have a working, plausible definition for that loose term?

So yes, it is silly of you to suppose those studies measured any moral absolute.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/23/2014 1:54:22 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

As I recall in the last study you presented the investigators cautioned against leaping to conclusions about genetic causation. There were no controls for early childhood modeling of parent behavior. And certainly no discovery for definitive genetic determiners to support your claim for empathy or sense of fairness wired into our brains.

Sense of Justice built into the Brain

Further resrouces:

Mirror neurons
Imitation, empathy, and mirror neurons
The Mind's Mirror
Moral Evaluations

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/23/2014 2:03:15 PM >

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/23/2014 2:11:21 PM   
evesgrden


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChristianDomCA

I never said that burning someone is the right thing to do. I didn't imply it either. I just said they would have done this to you back in the day. Don't put words in my mouth.



You pointed it out.. why?

Because it sure sounded like it came from a place of nostalgia, wistfully, for the good old days.

Back in the day....just kinda has that sound.

However if I'm wrong, then can I take your meaning to be that you are relieved we aren't so uncivilized to commit such an atrocious act upon someone, merely because of the words they utter.

In other words, are you for it, or agin it?

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What you permit, you promote.

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/23/2014 2:54:22 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

As I recall in the last study you presented the investigators cautioned against leaping to conclusions about genetic causation. There were no controls for early childhood modeling of parent behavior. And certainly no discovery for definitive genetic determiners to support your claim for empathy or sense of fairness wired into our brains.

Sense of Justice built into the Brain

Further resrouces:

Mirror neurons
Imitation, empathy, and mirror neurons
The Mind's Mirror
Moral Evaluations

K.

Please do take a look at the studies you cited and point out any specific evidence for genetic or evolutionary hard wiring vs learned behaviors and developmental neuroscience beyond some headlines and philosophical speculations.

Headlines of 'hard wiring' and brain image reports do not translate into inherited capacities in any of these studies.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/23/2014 3:40:11 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Please do take a look at the studies you cited and point out any specific evidence for genetic or evolutionary hard wiring vs learned behaviors and developmental neuroscience beyond some headlines and philosophical speculations.

Mirror neurons are present and "wired in" by birth at the latest.

An astonishing sequence of video stills show Ethan gazing at his dad intently. Within moments he clearly imitates his dad. The video clock shows that the baby is just 17 minutes old. ~Source

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/23/2014 3:43:33 PM >

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/23/2014 6:27:03 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Can a moral absolute exist irrespective of its own articulation or lack thereof? How might a moral absolute exist outside of language (or other means of symbolic representation and communication)?

I'm afraid I can't see this, or else I'm not understanding it. There are all kinds of things that are real regardless of whether or not they are (or even can be) articulated. Words only stand for things, they are not the arbiters of whether or not a thing exists.

K.



A thing such as a 'moral absolute' doesn't have a physical or tangible existence. It is an abstract concept we employ to represent something. One can infer the existence of abstract concepts from their effects.

Something such as 'Gravity' or 'Love' is real because their effects occur independent of whether we acknowledge them or not. As I understand it, you are suggesting the existence of 'moral absolutes' can be inferred from existing research into infant behaviour. That is to say it relies on the observers' interpretations of the behaviour they observe in children acting in a specific social situation. To infer the existence of something that is both innate and only sensible as an abstraction from this evidence seems quite a stretch to me. At the very least other interpretations are possible.

Language influences the way we classify things. Some argue that classification is impossible outside of language. How can we ensure that a concept such as 'moral absolute' has a real existence, and isn't merely a linguistic fiction, something that only makes sense within language but has no real existence outside of language?

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/23/2014 7:06:56 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Please do take a look at the studies you cited and point out any specific evidence for genetic or evolutionary hard wiring vs learned behaviors and developmental neuroscience beyond some headlines and philosophical speculations.

Mirror neurons are present and "wired in" by birth at the latest.

An astonishing sequence of video stills show Ethan gazing at his dad intently. Within moments he clearly imitates his dad. The video clock shows that the baby is just 17 minutes old. ~Source

K.

All this tells me is that this particular baby and probably all others are born with the capacity to learn, because that is what the baby is doing by imitating. This says no more than could be said that the baby is born with eyes to see with. Like eyes, mirror neurons, as I understand them, are built in learning tools. So are olfactory neurons. This tells us nothing about humans being hard wired for empathy. None of the citations you gave provides evidence that humans have an innate sense of empathy let along a sense of moral absolute. No more than wishful inferences.


< Message edited by vincentML -- 2/23/2014 7:24:09 PM >

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/23/2014 7:44:38 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

This tells us nothing about humans being hard wired for empathy. None of the citations you gave provides evidence that humans have an innate sense of empathy let along a sense of moral absolute. No more than wishful inferences.

I might suspect a reading comprehension problem, but this feels more like a conversation with someone who is peeking under the table at a Bible in his lap, insisting that God says infants do not have an innate sense of fairness, that our brains are not hard-wired for empathy, and that therefore there is no evidence of such and anything which appears to be is bunk.

If you'd like to consider pursuing this as a career, I can recommend an excellent hair-stylist.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/23/2014 8:10:29 PM >

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/23/2014 8:23:47 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

As I understand it, you are suggesting the existence of 'moral absolutes' can be inferred from existing research into infant behaviour.

Well, no. The research is finding evidence that we have an innate sense of fairness and brains that are wired for empathy, but I'm not suggesting that we can infer moral absolutes from that. I'm only suggesting that the findings are consonant with the existence of moral constants, "moral constants" being perhaps a better turn of phrase given the sensitivity of some people to anything they suspect of sneaking God in through the back door.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/23/2014 8:25:40 PM >

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/24/2014 9:04:28 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

This tells us nothing about humans being hard wired for empathy. None of the citations you gave provides evidence that humans have an innate sense of empathy let along a sense of moral absolute. No more than wishful inferences.

I might suspect a reading comprehension problem, but this feels more like a conversation with someone who is peeking under the table at a Bible in his lap, insisting that God says infants do not have an innate sense of fairness, that our brains are not hard-wired for empathy, and that therefore there is no evidence of such and anything which appears to be is bunk.

If you'd like to consider pursuing this as a career, I can recommend an excellent hair-stylist.

K.

It is amusing to watch you turn to personal comments and become snarky when you cannot supply a direct answer to a simple question. You seem frustrated and desperate, Kirata.

Nowhere did I suggest anything about God or the bible. As an atheist I would hardly turn to such absurd authority. And your comments about a hair stylist? Wtf? What sort of absurd non sequester is that?

My challenge to you was pretty straight forward. None of the studies shows a genetic basis for empathy. At best you produced mirror cells which are only physical apparatus. The mimicking behavior is a learning behavior. What if the child's model were a violent, drunken father? Would the child then mimic empathy? Fuck no! You have shown only that the newborn child has the neural apparatus to learn from its environment. Well, sorry. That is not headline news.

Please dispense with the childish personal comments and anwer my question if you can. I think you cannot.


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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/24/2014 9:13:04 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

As I understand it, you are suggesting the existence of 'moral absolutes' can be inferred from existing research into infant behaviour.

Well, no. The research is finding evidence that we have an innate sense of fairness and brains that are wired for empathy, but I'm not suggesting that we can infer moral absolutes from that. I'm only suggesting that the findings are consonant with the existence of moral constants, "moral constants" being perhaps a better turn of phrase given the sensitivity of some people to anything they suspect of sneaking God in through the back door.

K.

The problem with your presentation as I see it is that it is selective for your pov. There is a plethora of evidence of the lack of human empathy in the journals of criminology, psychology, sociology, and history. We do not have to look far to find that human behavior is often cruel and lacking in any sense of empathy. The researchers you point to make an unjustified leap from observed and interpreted behavior to genetic imperative.

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/24/2014 1:24:46 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		we have an innate sense of fairness... okay, then explain why a baby will take a toy from another baby because the first baby wants it?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/24/2014 1:43:16 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I might suspect a reading comprehension problem, but this feels more like a conversation with someone who is peeking under the table at a Bible in his lap...

Nowhere did I suggest anything about God or the bible. As an atheist I would hardly turn to such absurd authority.

As you missed the analogy entirely, this raises a good point. Maybe reading comprehension is part of the problem after all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

And your comments about a hair stylist? Wtf? What sort of absurd non sequester is that?

It was a reference to the extravagantly coiffed televangelists of 'homosexuality caused Katrina' fame and other absurdities.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/24/2014 2:51:38 PM   
chatterbox24


Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline 		I think some are born with more of one characteristic vs. Another. I believe some find it easier to be good then others because they were gifted with more self discipline and ease in an area. Through time people either gain more thru life lessons or lose more.

I don't know about anyone else but I'm going to go get my hair done. LOL. Does anyone know any good hairdressers? And I am kidding!

< Message edited by chatterbox24 -- 2/24/2014 2:52:29 PM >

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I am like a box of chocolates, you never know what variety you are going to get on any given day.

My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/24/2014 3:03:23 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

I don't know about anyone else but I'm going to go get my hair done. LOL. Does anyone know any good hairdressers? And I am kidding!

LOL


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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/24/2014 3:52:41 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

we have an innate sense of fairness... okay, then explain why a baby will take a toy from another baby because the first baby wants it?


Possibly because we have an innate sense of selfishness as well.

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/24/2014 7:26:36 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The researchers you point to make an unjustified leap from observed and interpreted behavior to genetic imperative.

Indeed.

Invariably, this turns out to be the case when claims of a genetic imperative underlying human behaviour are made. The silliness of these claims becomes clearer when we recall that, in this particular instance, the alleged 'evidence' is a subjective account of infants interacting in a social setting.

How any evidence of this type could possibly point to innate qualities/genetic determination is beyond me.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/24/2014 7:38:11 PM >

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