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RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 7:13:58 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		That's very different that assigning blame to Western Christianity as a whole.

Which "significant Christian churches and individuals are at the forefront"?

Then you all can debate something specific.

Because there are also significant Christian denominations and groupts that accept homosexuality:

North America
MCCNY, a church in New York City.
Grace Gospel Chapel, in Seattle.

Anthem Phoenix & Family of Churches
Anointed Affirming Independent Ministries
Community of Christ
Reconciling Pentecostals International
Affirming Pentecostal Church International
Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
Ecclesia Gnostica
Ecumenical Catholic Church
Ecumenical Catholic Communion
Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
Evangelical Anglican Church In America
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
The Evangelical Network
Episcopal Church (United States)
Friends of Jesus Fellowship (Quakers)
Friends General Conference
Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals
Inclusive Orthodox Church
Metropolitan Community Church
Old Catholic Church
Presbyterian Church (USA)
Progressive Christian Alliance
Reformed Anglican Catholic Church
Restoration Church of Jesus Christ (Salt Lake City, Utah, USA) — a Latter Day Saint denomination
United Church of Christ
United Church of Canada
Unity Church
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
Mexico - Affirming Pentecostal Church International

Europe

German Lutheran, reformed and united churches in Evangelical Church in Germany
German, Swiss, Austrian and Dutch Old Catholic Church
Austria, Belgium, Netherlands, Poland, Ecumenical Catholic Communion
Swiss reformed churches in Swiss Reformed Church
Protestant Church in the Netherlands
Church of Denmark
Church of Norway
Church of Sweden
Church of Iceland
United Protestant Church in Belgium
Portugal - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
British Quakers
Wales - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
Albania - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Italy (CELI)[4]
Poland - Christian United Church in Poland
United Kingdom - United Ecumenical Catholic Church

Central and South America

Brazil - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
Brazil - Catholic Diversity
Colombia - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
AChurch4Me (Chicago,IL)
Anthem Phoenix (Phoenix, Arizona)
New Day Worship Center (Toccoa, Georgia)
Bethlehem Community, Faithful Companions of St. Francis – religious community within Ecumenical Catholic Church (Liverpool, England)
Broadway United Methodist Church (Indianapolis, IN)
Cathedral of Hope (Dallas, Texas, USA)
Christ Chapel of the Valley (North Hollywood (Los Angeles), CA) - a member of the evangelical Christ Chapel Association of Churches
Church of St. Luke and The Epiphany, Episcopal (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA)
Church of the Valley (Van Nuys, CA) - Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
Community Parish of St Bernadette Liverpool – congregation of Ecumenical Catholic Church (Liverpool, England)
Glendale City Seventh-day Adventist Church (Glendale, California, USA)
Glide Memorial Church (San Francisco, California, USA)
Lakeside Church (Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA)
Most Holy Redeemer Catholic Church (San Francisco, California, USA)
New Covenant Church Sydney - A Pentecostal affirming church (Sydney, Australia)
Grace Gospel Chapel (Seattle, Washington, USA)
Seattle First Baptist Church (Seattle, Washington, USA)
Hagia Sophia Gnostic Church - Ecclesia Gnostica (Seattle, Washington, USA)
Light of Love Fellowship (St. Louis, Missouri, USA)
Pullen Memorial Baptist Church (Raleigh, North Carolina, USA)
Spirit of Joy Christian Church (Lakeville, Minnesota, USA) - Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
St. Mark's Anglican Church - a bilingual congregation (Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico)
Tong-Kwang Light House Presbyterian Church (Taipei, Taiwan)
University Baptist Church (Austin, Texas, USA)
St. Paul's Anglican Church (Vancouver, BC)
Wake Forest Baptist Church (Winston-Salem, North Carolina, USA)
Walnut Creek United Methodist Church (Walnut Creek, California, USA)
Living Spirit United Methodist Church (Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA)
Greenland Hills United Methodist Church (Dallas, TX, USA)
Ekklesia Tou Theou (Church of God), (Cavite, Philippines)
[1] Olivet-Schwenkfelder United Church of Christ, (East Norriton, Pennsylvania, USA)
Remain Ministries Southwest Florida - Non-Denominational/Pentecostal Church (Cape Coral/Fort Myers, Florida, USA)
Open Doors Community Church, (Seoul, South Korea)
Trinity Episcopal Church (St. Louis, Missouri, USA)

Denomination-sanctioned programmes

The following denominations have LGBT-welcoming or affirming programmes, though not all churches within the denomination are necessarily members of the LGBT programme.

Integrity and the OASIS are parachurch ministries, but operate under the official roof of the Episcopal Church USA and the Anglican Church of Canada. There are also official programmes identifying parishes in some dioceses.
Supportive Communities Network — Church of the Brethren, Mennonite Church USA, and Mennonite Church Canada
Open and Affirming — Christian Church (Disciples of Christ): Open and Affirming.
Welcoming Community Network (WCN). — Community of Christ
Reconciling in Christ — Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
More Light — Presbyterian Church (USA)
Open & Affirming, All are Welcome — Reformed Catholic Church[disambiguation needed] (USA) (International):
Room for All — Reformed Church in America
Affirm United/S'affirmer Ensemble — United Church of Canada
Open and Affirming (ONA) — United Church of Christ
Friends for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Queer Concerns

Unofficial programmes

Axios - an unofficial Orthodox-Christian association for LGBT Orthodox-Christians and same-sex-marriage activists working to promote recognition of same-sex marriage in the Church.
Affirmation: Gay & Lesbian Mormons — Latter-day Saints
Changing Attitude (International) – group working for LGBT affirmation within the Anglican Communion. Conducts worship, training and workshops.
Changing Attitude (UK)[5] – same as above but particularly for the Church of England.
DignityUSA - Roman Catholic Church. Works for inclusiveness but is not associated with particular congregations, nor is supported by the Church hierarchy. A separate organisation called Courage International promotes chastity amongst LGBT Catholics, and is supported by the Church hierarchy as it submits to the Church's official position on homosexuality.
Inclusive Church (Church of England/Anglican) – working for a range of inclusion within the Anglican Communion.
Nazarene Ally - Church of the Nazarene. Seeks to promote dialogue between the Nazarene Church and the LGBT community, address policy language, and promote inclusion of LGBT members in rhythms and life of the Church.[6]
Reconciling Ministries Network — United Methodist Church
SDA Kinship International — Seventh-day Adventist
Welcoming and Affirming — Baptist
Pink Menno Campaign — Mennonite Church USA
GALA (Gay and Lesbian Acceptance) - Community of Christ. An unofficial organization of LGBT members of the church.
Emergence International - Christian Science. An unofficial organization for LGBT members of the movement.

Programmes not affiliated with any particular denomination

Gay Christian Network (GCN) is a "nonprofit ministry supporting Christians worldwide who happen to be lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender (LGBT)". GCN is an ecumenical ministry, welcoming Christians from a wide variety of backgrounds. GCN was founded in 2001 by Justin Lee, and has sought to "build a supportive community to support fellow gay Christians in their Christian walks."
Freedom2b is an Australian based organisation that assists LGBTI people from Christian backgrounds on their journey to reconciling their faith, sexuality and gender identity.
Institute for Welcoming Resources (a programme of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force)
Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement (UK)
Accepting Evangelicals – Evangelical parishes accepting LGBT people www.acceptingevangelicals.org
Evangelical Fellowship for Lesbian and Gay Christians (UK)
European Forum of LGBT Christian Groups
Evangelicals Concerned: Gay and Transgender Christians
Sybils: UK group for transgender Christians
Nuntiare et Recreare: Russian multi-denominational organization
LGBT Christians (Russian: ЛГБТ-христиане Украины): Ukrainian multi-denominational organization
Believe Out Loud - an online network that empowers Christians to work for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) equality.
The Evangelical Network

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_Christian_denominations


< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/20/2014 7:19:12 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 7:28:48 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That's very different that assigning blame to Western Christianity as a whole.


Yes, it is isn't it? I'm glad that you have finally seen your way to agreeing with my claim.

quote:

Which "significant Christian churches and individuals are at the forefront"?


I mentioned the Catholic Church (a significant Christian church by any standard) as an example of the institutions I was criticising for being at the forefront of homphobic politics in the West today. There are many others who share the CC's position, many as you have listed that contest it and yet others who are deeply divided by the issue (eg Anglican Church)



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(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 7:51:47 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I'm astounded you can keep dancing so vigorously in a vat so full of bullshit.

You and Ken are a pair, to be sure.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 8:00:05 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

At the risk of repeating myself, my claim is some significant Christian churches and individuals are at the forefront of homophobic politics in the West today.

I am amazed that any one would contest this claim.

There certainly is a significant correlation.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 8:05:41 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
That's very different that assigning blame to Western Christianity as a whole.


Who's taken that position? I don't seem to recall seeing it, who do you think you're arguing that position with?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 8:06:10 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm astounded you can keep dancing so vigorously in a vat so full of bullshit.

You and Ken are a pair, to be sure.

Some people take their losses graciously.

Clearly you are not one of them. I was going to say that insults are no substitute for argument, but you haven't even advanced an argument. Just a lot of completely mistaken garbage, topped off with gratuitous insults when you realise what a fool you have made of yourself. Childish.

Goodbye.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/20/2014 8:20:20 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 186
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 8:08:15 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		But that doesn't establish cause and effect necessarily.

There are homophobes. Some of them are Christian. That subgroup will try to find a religious justification. That effect will be exacerbated in a country where more homophobes also identify as Christian.

But since there are also significant numbers of non-homophobic Christians, it's inaccurate to say Christians manufacture homophobia.

Rural Americans are more likely to be Christian. Rural Americans are more likely to be farmers. That doesn't mean Christianity is responsible for farming (or rural living).

Yes, there are significant groups, like Mennenites and the Amish, who are Christian farmers as a way of life. And they point to the Bible as the source of their choices. But there are significant Christian groups that don't insist their members farm. So Christianity is not the cause of farming.

Or homophobia necessarily.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/20/2014 8:10:44 AM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 8:09:04 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I didn't attack religion as a whole. There is no basis for this claim whatsoever in my text.

Well, your views on religion precede you. And when you have "religion(s)" taking both sides of the question, yet you rag against "religion(s)" for impeding gay rights, that looks to me like bias. But if you say that wasn't your intention in this case, I'll take you at your word. And on the brighter side, we're getting there.

Christians Lead the Way toward Marriage Equality
Mennonites Prepare to Ordain First Openly Gay Minister
Minnesota church makes history by ordaining first openly gay Presbyterian minister
Philly's first gay Presbyterian pastor
Gay Minister Ordained in Wisconsin Presbyterian Church
Openly Gay Priest Ordained in Jersey

K.


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 8:14:46 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I didn't attack religion as a whole. There is no basis for this claim whatsoever in my text.

Well, your views on religion precede you. And when you have "religion(s)" taking both sides of the question, yet you rag against "religion(s)" for impeding gay rights, that looks to me like bias. But if you say that wasn't your intention in this case, I'll take you at your word. And on the brighter side, we're getting there.

Christians Lead the Way toward Marriage Equality
Mennonites Prepare to Ordain First Openly Gay Minister
Minnesota church makes history by ordaining first openly gay Presbyterian minister
Philly's first gay Presbyterian pastor
Gay Minister Ordained in Wisconsin Presbyterian Church
Openly Gay Priest Ordained in Jersey

K.



I'm glad you have finally seen the light.

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Profile   Post #: 189
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 8:17:25 AM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		Gaywatch - Texas Edition: Remember the No-Homo
Reparative therapy for gays in Texas? Electrodes on your genitals, carry a bottle of shit and smell it when you get the urge to be with the same sex? Great video clip Thanks for the link, Jon Stewart was awesome.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/yv2g56/gaywatch---texas-edition--remember-the-no-homo

Oh btw Im back...at least for a while



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Profile   Post #: 190
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 8:21:54 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		You're welcome RS:) Im glad you enjoyed it:)

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Profile   Post #: 191
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 9:23:53 AM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		I was under the impression the Catholic church was run by gays. They are anti hetro sex except for the purpose to make babies and their priests keep getting busted fucking altar boys far too often. The organization appears openly gay to me. So I never saw the church itself as being anti gay. Or is that exactly what you meant, a church full of cock gobbling, butt fucking pedophiles IS what causes homophobia?

I do see your point about the homophobic zealot christan bible thumpers, not the gay priests, who use quotes from the book to chastise gay sex. Hell, any sex that doesn't make a baby will send you to hell whether with same sex or not... right? You know, "every sperm is sacred."

I feel it is more "individuals are at the forefront of homophobic politics" using bible doctrine than the intrinsically gay staffed church itself. The unspoken policy for the Catholic church was that "gay is ok" because they just move priests to other districts when they get busted. Well, at least that's what I've see in the news and documentaries about those homosexual pedophiles in frocks.

References:
The U.S. bishops and homosexual priests... Bishop Walter Curtis ... testified in 1995 that the diocese deliberately shuffled pedophile priests throughout parishes to give them a “fresh start.” More . . .

Are Gay Priests the Problem? . . . Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, second only to Pope Benedict, linked pedophilia to homosexuality. More (ABC news) . . .

Studies into the incidence of homosexuality in the Roman Catholic priesthood are contested and controversial. The issue is complicated by the distinction between priests who are to some degree homosexual, and those priests who engage in or promote gay sexual activity in contradiction to their vows and to the teaching of the Catholic Church. More . . .

"In the Philippines, where as of 2002 at least 85% of the population is Catholic, the revelations of sexual abuse by priests, including child sexual abuse" more . . .

and etc etc . . .

So you are saying you have trouble understanding how I would doubt a religion run by gays and renown for having gay sex with its patrons is anti gay? I am amazed that you would have trouble seeing my point of view.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

At the risk of repeating myself, my claim is some significant Christian churches and individuals are at the forefront of homophobic politics in the West today.

I am amazed that any one would contest this claim.


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(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 12:05:57 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

But that doesn't establish cause and effect necessarily.

There are homophobes. Some of them are Christian. That subgroup will try to find a religious justification. That effect will be exacerbated in a country where more homophobes also identify as Christian.

But since there are also significant numbers of non-homophobic Christians, it's inaccurate to say Christians manufacture homophobia.

If you examine pre Christian European cultures you will find wide spread acceptance of homosexuals. It is only with the spread of Christianity that homosexuality was suppressed. That is a cause and effect relationship that is very hard to ignore.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/20/2014 9:12:37 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		It also ignores the reality of non-Christian homophobia.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/21/2014 6:03:15 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
I'm astounded you can keep dancing so vigorously in a vat so full of bullshit.

You and Ken are a pair, to be sure.


Have you ever noticed how many people keep telling you that you're not hearing what they're saying? How frequently these threads involve progressively frustrated and belligerent statements of that's not my position addressed to you?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/21/2014 6:37:53 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		. . . because when someone firmly embraces an assumption, it's difficult for that someone not to believe that assumption is a fact.

Now, if those someones could return with counterarguments to the objections raised, fine -- we disagree.

But instead, those someones just keep repeating their initial assertions, ignoring the problems with their arguments, hoping the repetition will make them true.

It doesn't work that way.

Have you noticed these things only happen with a select few someones?

As you're one of them, I know that's hard for you to see.

But as you're someone who at least purports to be led by logic, perhaps you'll make an honest effort to take a searching, objective look.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/21/2014 7:24:54 AM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/21/2014 6:18:28 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
But that doesn't establish cause and effect necessarily.


Sure my graph doesn't but K's study does weigh in on that subject:

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/06/section-3-religious-belief-and-views-of-homosexuality/
Religious belief continues to be an important factor in opposition to societal acceptance of homosexuality and same-sex marriage.


And here's a little more of what I was quoting earlier:

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/03/whats-connection-between-religion-and.html
Among all the possible factors they explored, two stuck out as being much more powerful predictors of homophobia than the rest: conservatism and religiosity. So it seems that religion really does make people homophobic. Now, the interesting thing is that, although religion was also linked to racism, the link was extremely weak. So it doesn't seem that religion in general is acting to strengthen group identification. The implication of this is that religion really does powerfully add to homophobia because of its moral condemnation.


From there the article gets into another study about which aspects of religiosity are harmful and which are not, it's not long I'd recommend going through it.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/22/2014 12:35:20 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Sure my graph doesn't but K's study does weigh in on that subject...

In previous threads, you and others have argued that science advances with new understandings while religions and their followers remain stuck in the past. But the data you're citing here shows that the religious have been changing their views on homosexuality, and we know from other sources that some churches have even begun ordaining gay pastors. So either homophobic attitudes weren't really actually part of the religion, or else religions and their followers can and do change.

Which foot would you like to take out of your mouth?

K


< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/22/2014 12:51:59 AM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/22/2014 1:22:27 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

GotSteel

Have you ever noticed how many people keep telling you that you're not hearing what they're saying? How frequently these threads involve progressively frustrated and belligerent statements of that's not my position addressed to you?

It's a waste of time GS.

If only The Great Sagacious One took his own advice he would spare himself a lot of embarrassment. But that doesn't seem to be his style

Even though The Great Sagacious One completely misinterpreted my original post, it seems to be beneath his idea of his own sagacity to admit it, or to admit that his subsequent hectoring arrogant posts were laughably wrong, or to accept that he is capable of error at all. After a series of such gross ineptitudes, he's still pompously dispensing unwanted advice to those who point out his errors.

There's simply no point in discussing matters with such an inflated ego, an ego whose size is in inverse proportion to its wisdom.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/22/2014 1:26:31 AM >

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(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/22/2014 5:42:24 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
There are homophobes. Some of them are Christian.

If you're position has validity it shouldn't need to be couched in innumeracy. We've just looked at multiple graphs showing a strong correlation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
But since there are also significant numbers of non-homophobic Christians, it's inaccurate to say Christians manufacture homophobia.

This argument is a false dichotomy. Just because Cadbury exists doesn't make the argument "it's inaccurate to say Hersheys manufacture chocolate bars" sound.

The article I referenced last presents data citing two different aspects of religion as causes of homophobia. The existence of additional causes to those in no way invalidates the existence of the most common cause.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 200
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