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RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/22/2014 10:43:55 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
. . . because when someone firmly embraces an assumption, it's difficult for that someone not to believe that assumption is a fact.

Now, if those someones could return with counterarguments to the objections raised, fine -- we disagree.

But instead, those someones just keep repeating their initial assertions, ignoring the problems with their arguments, hoping the repetition will make them true.

The problem that a number of us have been pointing out to you is that the objections you're raising aren't objections to our positions. They're objections to someone else's position, someone who looks suspiciously strawlike. Which is why you keep getting the following 2 responses: 1: Who do you think you're talking to? 2: Actually listen to me this time [repeat of position].

This repetition isn't about making positions true it's about making positions heard.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Have you noticed these things only happen with a select few someones?

As you're one of them, I know that's hard for you to see.

But as you're someone who at least purports to be led by logic, perhaps you'll make an honest effort to take a searching, objective look.

Well it's only Vincent, Ken, myself and now Tweak since I started keeping track the other day which I'll agree with you is a small sample size and I await more data. However, since I started keeping track just the other day you've misrepresented the positions of 100% of the people I've seen you disagree with which seems like a worrisome trend. But *shrug* as you say I can certainly be expected to have a bias, have you had any prolonged disagreements lately where the opposition hasn't accused you of strawmanning them?





(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 201
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/22/2014 7:22:34 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		It's your buzzword, dude.

It's also your dodge for addressing the quarrels with the baseline assumptions. Point stands. You're going to ignore it. Noted.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 202
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/22/2014 8:12:36 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

have you had any prolonged disagreements lately where the opposition hasn't accused you of strawmanning them?

More to the point, have you ever had a prolonged disagreement with anybody without accusing them of strawmanning you? Because that fucking whine has been theme of yours for just about as long as you've been here. Seriously. So either there's one hell of a conspiracy arrayed against you, or else you're full of shit.

Wow, that's a tough one. Gimme me a sec, let me think about it.

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/22/2014 8:34:22 PM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 203
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/23/2014 1:32:23 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		There's hardly a regular poster here who has not been accused (rightly or wrongly) of strawmanning one time or another. That's the give and take of debate - not the highest level perhaps but hardly a concern of world shattering proportions. Most of us will continue to judge each case by its merits.

However, it's a different matter when one poster throws this accusation out, without foundation, against 3 reasoably intelligent regular posters (and Ken of course) in a single week. It gets worse when the accuser refuses to modify his position even when the thread's text clearly shows his charge to be without foundation or merit, and that the accuser hiself is guilty of strawmanning, not the accused. Usually an apology is in order but I suspect this person't monumental ego is of such proportions that there's less than a snowball's chance in hell of an apology happening.

There are some ugly terms available to describe people who continually and gratuitously accuse their opponents of their own faults. We all know what they are.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/23/2014 1:36:45 AM >

_____________________________



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RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/23/2014 7:21:55 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It's your buzzword, dude.

It's also your dodge for addressing the quarrels with the baseline assumptions. Point stands. You're going to ignore it. Noted.


Holy shit.....

It should be really straight forward that only one of us truly knows what I'm thinking and that said person is not you.






Attachment (1)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 205
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/23/2014 7:27:37 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Holy shit is right. You feel that your words don't convey your thoughts?

Maybe try a writing course . . . geez.

Kirata nailed it--exactly what I'm saying to you, and exactly what you've been typing for years (which, apparently, is thoughtless, since only you would know).

He left out the irony that your "everyone is strawmanning me" is a straw man argument.

When the circus comes to town, it's quite a show.

That you believe it is incredible. Oh, I'm sorry...that you fervently argue your point isn't evidence you believe it. Only you know your thoughts, and what you type doesn't convey them. Now, where I come from, we call fervently arguing something that doesn't reflect what you actually think "bullshit."

And when you're called on it, you turn to ad hominem, and marvel that neither you nor your "arguments" are taken seriously.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/23/2014 7:29:42 AM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 206
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/23/2014 8:31:29 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

It should be really straight forward that only one of us truly knows what I'm thinking and that said person is not you.

That's true as long as you're only thinking it. But when you type it out and post it, then everybody knows.

See how that works? Glad to help.

K.


(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 207
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/23/2014 9:17:18 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
There's hardly a regular poster here who has not been accused (rightly or wrongly) of strawmanning one time or another.


I'd be surprised if any regular poster here hadn't at one time or another been fighting a strawman. We have discussions on complex issues and misunderstandings are doomed to occur. Thing is it seems like they should be pretty easy to clear up and sometimes explaining that's not what you meant is enough to get the discussion back on track. Other times you're just being trolled and there's no point.

What I find interesting is that there seems to be at least a third option, one where a poster will somehow conclude that their interpretation of your words supersedes your interpretation of your words and I've always wondered how someone internally manages to justify that.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 208
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/23/2014 9:30:00 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		As long as you feel your words are subjective, rather than containing objective arguments, you'll be able to tell yourself you're "misunderstood."

Now, other people handle this by sharing arguments that clarify their positions.

You also appear mystified that *all* arguments are based on assumptions at their foundation, and that those assumptions are apparent in the argument itself. Seems an odd perspective from one striving to present himself as the voice of logic, since it's such basic precept.

From there, we might speculate as to your motivation for clinging to that irreconcilable contradiction. That's where subjective views would enter. But that's not what's happening here, much as you struggle to paint it as such.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 209
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/23/2014 4:48:29 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
As long as you feel your words are subjective, rather than containing objective arguments, you'll be able to tell yourself you're "misunderstood."


Oh there is a correct answer to what my words meant but I expect it's much harder to see when you spend so much time endowing me with imaginary thoughts, feelings and motivations.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 210
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/23/2014 8:11:55 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		So now they DO mean what you say . . . except when only you know.




(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/23/2014 8:42:01 PM   
njlauren


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Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

But that doesn't establish cause and effect necessarily.

There are homophobes. Some of them are Christian. That subgroup will try to find a religious justification. That effect will be exacerbated in a country where more homophobes also identify as Christian.

But since there are also significant numbers of non-homophobic Christians, it's inaccurate to say Christians manufacture homophobia.

Rural Americans are more likely to be Christian. Rural Americans are more likely to be farmers. That doesn't mean Christianity is responsible for farming (or rural living).

Yes, there are significant groups, like Mennenites and the Amish, who are Christian farmers as a way of life. And they point to the Bible as the source of their choices. But there are significant Christian groups that don't insist their members farm. So Christianity is not the cause of farming.

Or homophobia necessarily.





There is a problem with this, and it is trying to use the point that some Christians are homosexual friendly to make the point that homophobia has nothing to do with Christianity,or that Christian churches have nothing to do with the discrimination LGBT people face. Think about same sex marriage, and what are the arguments you get? 1)That marriage is sacred and is a man and a woman, and what do they cite? Genesis, a part of the CHristian bible and Jesus supposedly saying marriage is between a man and a woman 2)Gays are abominations, and what do they cite? Leviticus, Deuteronomy (wrongly), and soodom and gomorrah (wrongly), and Paul (questionable), but then we get the big one "Marriage is about procreating, having children", which is pure religion, since marriage as a legal right has zip to do with children, there is no promises to have children, you don't have to be able to have children, yet time and again we hear that cited..and oh, yeah, the supporters of proposition 8 when appearing before SCOTUS outright said the ban on same sex marriage was based on religious belief..and given that the Jewish population against same sex marriage is tiny (only the orthodox, who are a small group, oppose it), and Muslims are tiny, what religious belief do you think you are talking about? Ta da, Christian...

And before patting yourself on the back about how many Christian churches have come around (and they have, it is quite a few), unfortunately the shitkicker churches, the evangelical churches whom have way, way too much political power in this country, have been allowed to dominate the agenda in this country, and they aren't all that tiny. There also is a divergence between the leaders of churches and its members, 60% of Catholics in this country support same sex marriage, yet the stupid old white guys who run the church have turned Catholicism into being anti gay/anti same sex marriage and anti abortion, and unfortunately politicians are still dumb enough to believe the Bishops have power to hurt them.

It also doesn't take a genius to see that the US has lagged behind Europe when it comes to gay rights, it is pathetic that the US, supposedly the land of the free and home of the brave, is so far behind. Mexico and Uruguay and other south american countries have legal same sex marriage, places we don't exactly associate with human rights, and a supposedly "Catholic" country, spain, legalized it years ago. Right now in the US, despite 20 states having same sex marriage, those marriages are almost useless in the other 30, and in 35 states you can legally be fired for being gay, in large part thanks to the GOP, the house party for the evangelical assholes, refusing to allow a vote on a national law that would make such discrimination illegal......do you think that maybe, just maybe, with the GOP's allegiance with the religious wrong, who are pretty much 100% Christian, had something to do with that?

I applaud the fact that churches have come around, but what you are leaving out is that the homophobia out there came from our "Christian tradition", that homophobia came about from centuries of the church calling gays abominations, evil, you name it. Do you think that maybe, just maybe, the Catholic Church preaching to its members for many centuries that gays were disordered just might have infliuenced all those little O'Shays, Santuccis and so forth? You think the fact that the more religious someone describes themselves as being the more homophobic they tend to be has nothing to do with religion, or the fact that Atheists and agnostics as a group have the highest rates of accepting same sex marriage and the lowest rates of homophobia? That neo pagan religions like Wicca, that don't use the bible, have as well very high rates of accepting homosexuality and same sex marriage? You cannot say that homophobia came out of nowhere, in a society where not all that long ago you could say that 90% of the people were either Christian or from Christian backgrounds and homophobia was high, and in contrast that today when people are not as religious, when people don't unquestingly for the most part believe what the bible says or what church leaders say, that homophobia and opposition to same sex marriage are declining, that religion in the past had nothing to do with homophobia. It would be like pointing to countries like Iran and Saudia arabia and saying Islam has nothing to do with the attitudes against gays in those plays, it is basically trying to dodge the issue. You might have a point that homophobia might predate Christianity and those who wrote the bible put it in there because of their own biases, and I wouldn't argue the fact, but 2000 years of Christian belief being the dominant ideology in the west had a huge impact on society, and what you also have to recognize is outside the quakers, most of the churches you list as being gay friendly only turned around in the last 30 years or so, so if you looked back 30 years you would see that probably 95% of the Christian churches in this country were anti gay, pure and simple, and that makes it even more obvious that the homophobia in society was heavily caused by the churches...

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 212
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/23/2014 8:49:50 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		You are confusing the example with the point made.

I'm not patting anyone on the back. This is bullshit all the way around.

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 213
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/23/2014 8:52:06 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Huh?

Here there's a clear case of non-religious homophobia, and hence, religion, at the very least, is not the sole perpetrator.

There's nothing false or flimsy about that -- it's historical evidence of exactly this point.

Not the sole perperatraor, but the dominant one, and historically the further in time you go back, the larger the role the churches played in homophobia. Put it this way, attitudes towards gays in the US in the present day are most favorable in places that tend to be less religious, whereas places that are classified as being more religious, the bible belt, places where evangelical churches are common like areas of colorado outside of Denver, you see homophobia being a lot more dominant. More importantly, if you study non religious homophobes and their attitudes against gays and same sex marriage, it isn't a big surprise they use the same arguments the religious do, that marriage is meant to be between a man and a woman to create children, that being gay is an abherration and so forth, and the answer is pretty easy.....someone may not go to church or be particularly religious, but the term 'cultural christian' has a lot of meaning, and it covers a lot of people who otherwise would not be considered religious..these people often came from families that went to church, had parents who grew up in church, and so forth, and think that is not passed down? Culture is heavily influenced by religion, and you don't clear out thousands of years of bias and teaching in the space of 30,40, 50 years, it just doesn't happen. More importantly, there is a direct correlation between the drop in people going to church or considering themselves members of any particular church, and the growth in positive attitudes towards gays. When the cops raided the Stonewall Inn in 1969 that led to the riots there, a large percentage of NYC residents, specifically the blue collar mostly Catholic residents, were cheering the cops on to go and 'beat up those fags' (roughly 70% of NYC residents felt that the cops were right)...today, among the kids and grandkids of that generation, they would be horrified and 70% of the would want the cops, the police commissioner and the mayor arrested and brought up on charges themselves......and those kids and grandkids either are not particularly religious, or are Cafeteria Catholics and other more liberal believers, something their parents and grandparents were not.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/23/2014 8:54:53 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Gaywatch - Texas Edition: Remember the No-Homo
Reparative therapy for gays in Texas? Electrodes on your genitals, carry a bottle of shit and smell it when you get the urge to be with the same sex? Great video clip Thanks for the link, Jon Stewart was awesome.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/yv2g56/gaywatch---texas-edition--remember-the-no-homo

Oh btw Im back...at least for a while



Hey, Resident, nice to see you......and of course, Texas is known for being overwhelmingly atheist, so if they are homophobic and promote crap like this (literally crap), has nothing to do with religon, nah, they are a bunch of rootin', tootin' atheists... *lol*.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)
Profile   Post #: 215
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/23/2014 8:57:09 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Again, you're confusing the example with the point.

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 216
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/23/2014 9:01:06 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I was under the impression the Catholic church was run by gays. They are anti hetro sex except for the purpose to make babies and their priests keep getting busted fucking altar boys far too often. The organization appears openly gay to me. So I never saw the church itself as being anti gay. Or is that exactly what you meant, a church full of cock gobbling, butt fucking pedophiles IS what causes homophobia?

I do see your point about the homophobic zealot christan bible thumpers, not the gay priests, who use quotes from the book to chastise gay sex. Hell, any sex that doesn't make a baby will send you to hell whether with same sex or not... right? You know, "every sperm is sacred."

I feel it is more "individuals are at the forefront of homophobic politics" using bible doctrine than the intrinsically gay staffed church itself. The unspoken policy for the Catholic church was that "gay is ok" because they just move priests to other districts when they get busted. Well, at least that's what I've see in the news and documentaries about those homosexual pedophiles in frocks.

References:
The U.S. bishops and homosexual priests... Bishop Walter Curtis ... testified in 1995 that the diocese deliberately shuffled pedophile priests throughout parishes to give them a “fresh start.” More . . .

Are Gay Priests the Problem? . . . Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, second only to Pope Benedict, linked pedophilia to homosexuality. More (ABC news) . . .

Studies into the incidence of homosexuality in the Roman Catholic priesthood are contested and controversial. The issue is complicated by the distinction between priests who are to some degree homosexual, and those priests who engage in or promote gay sexual activity in contradiction to their vows and to the teaching of the Catholic Church. More . . .

"In the Philippines, where as of 2002 at least 85% of the population is Catholic, the revelations of sexual abuse by priests, including child sexual abuse" more . . .

and etc etc . . .

So you are saying you have trouble understanding how I would doubt a religion run by gays and renown for having gay sex with its patrons is anti gay? I am amazed that you would have trouble seeing my point of view.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

At the risk of repeating myself, my claim is some significant Christian churches and individuals are at the forefront of homophobic politics in the West today.

I am amazed that any one would contest this claim.




I don't know if you are being facetitious or not, but have you ever heard of the term 'self hating gay'? Estimates are that 50% of the priests in the Catholic Church are gay (which means the hierarchy is likely just as bad), but the fact that they let priests molest kids and moved them around doesn't mean anything, other than they are desperate to keep priests because they literally don't have enough. Roy Cohn was one of the biggest queens this side of HRH, yet he spent most of his career persecuting gays in government, while enjoying tremendous power himself (there is a wonderful scene in "angels in America", where in the movie Al Pacino plays Cohn, who has AIDS, and he is ranting how he isn't a queer, that a queer can't pick up the telephone and talk to the president'.....

Catholics themselves are not that homophobic, 60%+ support same sex marriage being legal, and about 75% think gays should be protected from discrimination....however, the church leaders are homophobic, the two main tenets of the US Catholic church as laid down by their leadership is being anti gay and being anti abortion, that to them is what Catholicism boils down to, the Pope has been on their case about that, reminding them that supporting politicians who are anti gay and/or anti abortion and ignoring what they do to the poor is not in line with being Catholic.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)
Profile   Post #: 217
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/23/2014 9:05:24 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It also ignores the reality of non-Christian homophobia.



The reality of non Christian homophobia is that its roots are in Christianity. Just because John Q homophobe doesn't go to church, claims not to be religious and so forth doesn't mean that Christianity is not at the root of his homophobia. Even if his family was not religious, chances are he grew up around people who were Christian and influenced by their churches, and in his own family odds are that in prior generations everyone was Christian. Given that churches have only come around in the last 30 years, and changed their stance, this means that a lot of people grew up in the era when 95% of Christian churches were homophobic, instead of the 60% of so that are today, and that stretched back over hundreds of years, creating a common culture and that culture was heavily influenced by Christian teaching, which for most of that time was extremely homophobic. Wanna see something? Read what the esteemed Cardinal Cooke in NYC said at the tme of the Stonewall Riots, then come back and talk to me.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 218
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/23/2014 9:15:01 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Sure my graph doesn't but K's study does weigh in on that subject...

In previous threads, you and others have argued that science advances with new understandings while religions and their followers remain stuck in the past. But the data you're citing here shows that the religious have been changing their views on homosexuality, and we know from other sources that some churches have even begun ordaining gay pastors. So either homophobic attitudes weren't really actually part of the religion, or else religions and their followers can and do change.

Which foot would you like to take out of your mouth?

K


Religion can and does change, but you are leaving out the many, many generations when those same churches were as homophobic as anyone other there, and also are leaving out that the churches were homophobic and most people belonged to one of those churches.

The other point I'll make is that churches (leaving out the Quakers) are changing because society has, churches were not the ones leading the charge with gay rights (with some exceptions). Churches are changing their stance because people have been fighting for the last roughly 50 years to change attitudes towards gays, with churches kicking and streaming against it. It is good there are liberal churches out there, it is good that mainstream groups like the ECUSA, the Presbytyrians, the ELCA and UCC and so forth, have taken a stand in favor of gays, but they did so because people challenged them to do so, not because they suddenly became enlightened. And while it is wonderful that they have changed their attitudes, for example the ECUSA refuses to take the step of recognizing same sex marriage as fully supported (they have a same sex blessing churches can use, but it is not official liturgy), because they are afraid of appeasing the homophobic garbage in Africa and Asia in the Anglican Communion, which isn't exactly taking a stand, so they aren't there yet.

Plus that has nothing to do with what others have saying, because the damage of homophobia was done over many hundreds of years, whereas churches becoming 'gay accepting' is a phenomena of maybe a generation or 2, and you don't undue thousands of years of poison in society in 40 years. The thing question about homophobia is to ask yourself this question "If homophobia is not based on religion, then where did it come from? If thousands of years of Christian teaching and the bilge in the bible had nothing to do with it, where did it come from? "..and the answer is, you cannot answer that, because there is no answer, the virulent homophobia out there cannot be explained by squeamishness, or observed harm, it was too strong, too virulent to be because people were uncomfortable with it.......and no other explanation, other than religious moral teaching, can fire up that kind of hatred against gays.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 219
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 6/23/2014 9:23:34 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Again, you're confusing the example with the point.

No I am not, the point is that the homophobia you see in society can be traced directly back to Christian religious teaching for thousands of years. Churches have generally not been leading the fight against homophobia, until 30 years ago most of them were fighting against gays, and that is a valid point. To look at 2014 and point to the many churches that are gay positive doesn't change the fact that the homophobia that is out there was preached and taught and amplified by Christian churches for many thousands of years.The gay rights movement, unlike the civil rights movement, was not aided by churches, and it can be argued pretty easily that churches are changing their attitudes because they know if they keep persecuting gays all they will be left with is the haters. More importantly, there is such a thing as 'cultural christianity', and it has been soundly homophobic for a long time.

It is very much like anti semitism, the Catholic CHurch among others claim that their teachings were not anti semitic (which is true, there is nothing in Catholic teachings about the Jews), however, the Catholic Church for many thousands of years fueled anti semtic beliefs, its priests and hierarchy demonized Jews, encouraged rulers to throw the Jews out of their country or take away their rights, and basically as a culture created a climate where Jews were demonized and treated like shit (same with other Christian churches, the Russian and Eastern orthdox churches made the Catholic church look positively zionist).

More importantly, while churches have come around, in the fight for same sex marriage the pro gay churches have been relatively weak in support, while the anti gay churches (the Catholic Bishops, the evangelicals, the Mormons and so forth) have been actively out there fighting against gays, and that lack of support from supposedly 'pro gay' churches speaks volumes, as Burke said, all that is needed for evil to survive is for good men to do nothing.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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