RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree

RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (Full Version)

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lovmuffin -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 3:40:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: Put yourself in Davis' parents' shoes. The victim's mother wrote this: http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/02/20/stand-your-ground-michael-dunn-jordan-davis-column/5655819/ ** While I understand the racial significance of this discussion, I believe the blame lies with the culture that emboldened Dunn to pull a loaded gun from his glove compartment and a law that encourages unnecessary violence. Florida's "stand your ground" law is the reason my son is dead. People ask me what they can do to honor Jordan's memory. The answer is simple: They can join me and other moms who are calling on Florida and 25 other states to repeal "stand your ground" laws. There is a difference between feeling threatened and being in a life-threatening situation. That distinction should be clear under the law. In many states, it isn't. ** Why can't SYG be modified to actually being a threat instead of a feeling ? It's not right to prosecute someone who used deadly force if it was indeed justified.

BamaD -> RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 3:43:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie So what? The law said he wasn't guilty. Get over it. Erm no... But thanks for coming in ten pages after the first post to denigrate it with misunderstanding.. Most excellent effort [8\|] It's a gift. You would think Dunn walked from some of the reactions here. Instead he will spend the rest of his life in prison even if they don't retry the murder charge. That is your poor perception, as I was the first to say he deserves his 60 years, way back in post one your observational point is bullshit.... especially when Lookie was talking about me to me...... So, did the guy walk, or is he going to jail? He goes away for at least 60 years for 3 counts of attempted murder and for shooting into a car. And they will retry him for murder. Hung jury, not acquittal.

DomKen -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 3:47:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: Put yourself in Davis' parents' shoes. The victim's mother wrote this: http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/02/20/stand-your-ground-michael-dunn-jordan-davis-column/5655819/ ** While I understand the racial significance of this discussion, I believe the blame lies with the culture that emboldened Dunn to pull a loaded gun from his glove compartment and a law that encourages unnecessary violence. Florida's "stand your ground" law is the reason my son is dead. People ask me what they can do to honor Jordan's memory. The answer is simple: They can join me and other moms who are calling on Florida and 25 other states to repeal "stand your ground" laws. There is a difference between feeling threatened and being in a life-threatening situation. That distinction should be clear under the law. In many states, it isn't. ** Why can't SYG be modified to actually being a threat instead of a feeling ? It's not right to prosecute someone who used deadly force if it was indeed justified. Why not return to common law self defense that worked for 400 years?

cloudboy -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 3:48:54 PM)
I think she makes a valid distinction. Also, why can't there be be a duty to retreat if that is an available an option. If one can safely walk away from a confrontation, that should be the first option exercised.

BamaD -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 4:02:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy I think she makes a valid distinction. Also, why can't there be be a duty to retreat if that is an available an option. If one can safely walk away from a confrontation, that should be the first option exercised. So the total burden of proof should be on the guy who is defending himself. How do you prove you retreated enough?

BamaD -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 4:07:30 PM)
Why not return to common law self defense that worked for 400 years? Because it didn't. We got a generation of prosecutors who made the guy defending himself prove his innocence.

DomKen -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 4:11:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Why not return to common law self defense that worked for 400 years? Because it didn't. We got a generation of prosecutors who made the guy defending himself prove his innocence. We had 400 years of the burden being on the person claiming self defense and it worked just fine. And weren't you just arguing that it wasn't the laws fault if the jury went wrong? Then how can you blame the law for the prosecutors?

BamaD -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 4:16:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Why not return to common law self defense that worked for 400 years? Because it didn't. We got a generation of prosecutors who made the guy defending himself prove his innocence. We had 400 years of the burden being on the person claiming self defense and it worked just fine. And weren't you just arguing that it wasn't the laws fault if the jury went wrong? Then how can you blame the law for the prosecutors? Almost clever In case you are unaware of it there is a difference between a jury and a prosecutor. With the burden being on the defendant it is guilty until proven innocent turning the legal system on it's head.

Politesub53 -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 4:23:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin Why can't SYG be modified to actually being a threat instead of a feeling ? It's not right to prosecute someone who used deadly force if it was indeed justified. No, whats not right is to murder someone who isnt any sort of threat. You know, popcorn throwers or loud music players, those murderous types. [8\|]

lovmuffin -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 4:34:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin Why can't SYG be modified to actually being a threat instead of a feeling ? It's not right to prosecute someone who used deadly force if it was indeed justified. No, whats not right is to murder someone who isnt any sort of threat. You know, popcorn throwers or loud music players, those murderous types. [8\|] So, I'm not talking about popcorn throwers and loud music players in my post.

lovmuffin -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 4:36:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Why not return to common law self defense that worked for 400 years? Because it didn't. We got a generation of prosecutors who made the guy defending himself prove his innocence. Exactly, prosecutors trying to put a feather in their hat every time a gun was used justifiably.

BamaD -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 4:36:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin Why can't SYG be modified to actually being a threat instead of a feeling ? It's not right to prosecute someone who used deadly force if it was indeed justified. No, whats not right is to murder someone who isnt any sort of threat. You know, popcorn throwers or loud music players, those murderous types. [8\|] So, I'm talking about popcorn throwers and loud music players in my post. Of course not but they always go to the worst case to prove a point. Usually a case where SYG didn't get someone off like the Dunn case.

Politesub53 -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 4:37:23 PM)
Your excusing murder over trivial matters........ nothing new there. [8\|]

lovmuffin -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 4:41:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Why not return to common law self defense that worked for 400 years? Because it didn't. We got a generation of prosecutors who made the guy defending himself prove his innocence. We had 400 years of the burden being on the person claiming self defense and it worked just fine. And weren't you just arguing that it wasn't the laws fault if the jury went wrong? Then how can you blame the law for the prosecutors? It didn't always work just fine. Sometimes people got, and still get prosecuted for anything involving a gun by some overzealous anti gun pompas asshole Mike Nifong type.

BamaD -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 4:45:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Why not return to common law self defense that worked for 400 years? Because it didn't. We got a generation of prosecutors who made the guy defending himself prove his innocence. We had 400 years of the burden being on the person claiming self defense and it worked just fine. And weren't you just arguing that it wasn't the laws fault if the jury went wrong? Then how can you blame the law for the prosecutors? It didn't always work just fine. Sometimes people got, and still get prosecuted for anything involving a gun by some overzealous anti gun pompas asshole Mike Nifong type. Or that MD prosecutor who is going after a guy because at 1 am he answered the door with a gun and when attacked didn't call 911 before defending himself.

lovmuffin -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 4:46:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Your excusing murder over trivial matters........ nothing new there. [8\|] Nobody is doing that. You're just pulling shit out of your ass because none of the strawman crap you're blathering on about address anything we actually said.

kdsub -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 4:46:55 PM)
Wouldn't it be simple to make one change to the law and all these problems will go away. Just say that before deadly force can be used an attempt must be made to flee the confrontation.... In all cases. Butch

lovmuffin -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 4:51:25 PM)
OOPs, sorry Polite, I didn't consider the smilie emoticon in your post. I guess you were just kidding. [8D]

BamaD -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 4:51:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Wouldn't it be simple to make one change to the law and all these problems will go away. Just say that before deadly force can be used an attempt must be made to flee the confrontation.... In all cases. Butch No First off it would not make the problems go away. For example if someone tries to mug you when you try to get away you are dead. Your question is a lets compromise and do it my way one.

lovmuffin -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 4:53:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Wouldn't it be simple to make one change to the law and all these problems will go away. Just say that before deadly force can be used an attempt must be made to flee the confrontation.... In all cases. Butch Or couldn't there be a requirement that there is an actual threat instead of a perceived one.

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