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RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 7:23:37 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

But if your house was set up where you could retreat...perhaps a safe room or another exit... would you retreat? I just want to get a feeling for your mindset.


Butch

And realize it or not you are still advocating that the criminal owns the world.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 7:29:06 PM   
altoonamaster


Posts: 184
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		thank you bamad you hit the nail on the head

(in reply to BamaD)
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RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 7:30:19 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		So you will not answer... ok... I really don't think you realize how you come off... Nothing I have said is advocating criminals own the world...lol

I am only advocating good sense.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 263
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 7:36:17 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

So you will not answer... ok... I really don't think you realize how you come off... Nothing I have said is advocating criminals own the world...lol

I am only advocating good sense.

Butch

If you could not decode my statement.
Letting the intruder have all the advantages as you suggest would be putting my family in greater danger
than taking him out. Unless you believe he is harmless.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 264
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 7:44:21 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		No you are dodging the question... If you had a choice would you retreat or kill...

You are not giving anyone but yourself and your family the advantage by retreating if you can. Anytime you start shooting your family is at risk... the intruder may shoot back. Only as an absolute last resort should deadly force be used.

That is your problem... you think you have a right to kill unless you have to... Tell me in your state is burglary a capital offense? If you capture the criminal and turn him over for prosecution and he is convicted will he be executed?

Guns don't make you a judge

Guns don't make you an executioner

Guns in the hands of responsible adults are a last resort option.. not a first resort.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/21/2014 7:47:21 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 265
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 7:58:43 PM   
DominantWoman65


Posts: 386
Joined: 6/27/2013
Status: offline 		If I may ask Butch, have you ever been the victim of a home invasion? If so, I take it you were able to retreat. Now, think of living alone and awoken by an intruder, trying to escape but finding yourself trapped and then finding escape only after unspeakable things have been done to you.
I am not in a theatre, parking lot or city street where I would look for an escape. I am in my own home, my safe haven. I will protect myself the second time around.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 266
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 8:00:14 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No you are dodging the question... If you had a choice would you retreat or kill...

You are not giving anyone but yourself and your family the advantage by retreating if you can. Anytime you start shooting your family is at risk... the intruder may shoot back. Only as an absolute last resort should deadly force be used.

That is your problem... you think you have a right to kill unless you have to... Tell me in your state is burglary a capital offense? If you capture the criminal and turn him over for prosecution and he is convicted will he be executed?

Guns don't make you a judge

Guns don't make you an executioner

Guns in the hands of responsible adults are a last resort option.. not a first resort.

Butch

No I am not if he has broken into my home only a fool would assume that he isn't willing to get violent
If it is simplest for him. In my state they understand this. The moment he breaks into my home he, by law
forfeits his right to breath. No they won't execute him for burglary but they are not foolish enough to think
he would stop at that.
And if you thought about it you would know that trying to get them out of the house makes them better targets
than having them lay down while you deal with the intruder.
If he threw his hands up and surrendered I would hold him for the police but, unlike you, I will not give him a free
shot.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 267
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 8:05:11 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		So... then cutting through your verbose answer... I got you... You would kill even though you don't have to.

Now i understand your position on all things guns.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 268
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 8:05:56 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No you are dodging the question... If you had a choice would you retreat or kill...

You are not giving anyone but yourself and your family the advantage by retreating if you can. Anytime you start shooting your family is at risk... the intruder may shoot back. Only as an absolute last resort should deadly force be used.

That is your problem... you think you have a right to kill unless you have to... Tell me in your state is burglary a capital offense? If you capture the criminal and turn him over for prosecution and he is convicted will he be executed?

Guns don't make you a judge

Guns don't make you an executioner

Guns in the hands of responsible adults are a last resort option.. not a first resort.

Butch

If he comes on in after my Doberman advises him not to it is only reasonable to assume he isn't there for a beer.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 269
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 8:08:54 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

So... then cutting through your verbose answer... I got you... You would kill even though you don't have to.

Now i understand your position on all things guns.

Butch

No you don't.
You have an unreasonable faith in the value of co-operation.
You turn over everything you have including your family if you want to, I won't.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 2/21/2014 8:18:11 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 270
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 8:36:53 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

If I may ask Butch, have you ever been the victim of a home invasion? If so, I take it you were able to retreat. Now, think of living alone and awoken by an intruder, trying to escape but finding yourself trapped and then finding escape only after unspeakable things have been done to you.
I am not in a theatre, parking lot or city street where I would look for an escape. I am in my own home, my safe haven. I will protect myself the second time around.


DominantWoman

If I found myself in a situation where I could not retreat I still would not shoot unless I had to... why... because bullets do not have brains. If you lived in my area you would hear almost every week where someone was shot by bullets coming through walls or windows. They were not the target but shot anyway. This is not unusual... it happens all the time...And... it could happen to a child in their room when confronting an intruder with a gun... interior walls seldom stop bullets.

Now I have a shotgun... less chance of killing innocents but I also have a lock on it and most likely would be of little use in a house invasion. I have young grand kids over all the time... and the chance of them getting to a readily accessible loaded gun is hundreds of times more likely to happen than an armed intruder breaking in my home.

I am much better off, and so would you, having good locks and an alarm...This is cheaper than a hand gun and provides much better protection.

Butch

ps... DominantWoman...despite what some think if I had no choice I would shoot...but unlike some it would be my last option... And finally I cannot know the horrors you went through and I can only have sympathy for you...but I still believe you would be better off with strong doors...locks and a good alarm than blasting away at shadows.

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/21/2014 9:11:16 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DominantWoman65)
Profile   Post #: 271
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 8:50:10 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

If I may ask Butch, have you ever been the victim of a home invasion? If so, I take it you were able to retreat. Now, think of living alone and awoken by an intruder, trying to escape but finding yourself trapped and then finding escape only after unspeakable things have been done to you.
I am not in a theatre, parking lot or city street where I would look for an escape. I am in my own home, my safe haven. I will protect myself the second time around.


DominantWoman

If I found myself in a situation where I could not retreat I still would not shoot unless I had to... why... because bullets do not have brains. If you lived in my area you would hear almost every week where someone was shot by bullets coming through walls or windows. They were not the target but shot anyway. This is not unusual... it happens all the time...And... it could happen to a child in their room when confronting an intruder with a gun... interior walls seldom stop bullets.

Now I have a shotgun... less chance of killing innocents but I also have a lock on it and most likely would be of little use in a house invasion. I have young grand kids over all the time... and the chance of them getting to a readily accessible loaded gun is hundreds of times more likely to happen than an armed intruder breaking in my home.

I am much better off, and so would you, having good locks and an alarm...This is cheaper than a hand gun and provides much better protection.

Butch

Any static defense will be overcome.
A dog is the best first line of defense.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 272
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 9:04:47 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Now your're talking... No burglar will get through my locks without waking me and my dog is even louder.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 273
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 9:07:54 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Now your're talking... No burglar will get through my locks without waking me and my dog is even louder.

Butch

As I said earlier if they ignore my Dobermans advice to go away it is fair to assume they are somewhat hostile.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 274
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 9:16:41 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		That's not going to happen then... you may as well turn your gun into a bedside light... that is unless there is a mafia hit out on you.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 275
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/22/2014 4:18:07 AM   
DominantWoman65


Posts: 386
Joined: 6/27/2013
Status: offline 		Butch, thank you for replying and answering my question, I do agree with a lot of your opinions and I do value human life and I also believe there needs to be changes made to SYG.
I thought my home was safe. I had good locks, a dog and an alarm system. Problem is I knew my intruder, he knew the house very well, (it was our family home) which may make my situation a little different. I now live over 800 miles away and have become even more trained. I have my permit for my handgun and mace, my 410 and Louisville is always under the bed and behind my door. I know every inch of my condo blindfolded and my military brothers made sure that I have amazing NVG goggles so that I can more readily identify my target if need be. If it ever comes to a day that I have to make a decision, I will choose my life.


(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/22/2014 8:24:05 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No you are dodging the question... If you had a choice would you retreat or kill...



Massad Ayoob addresses this very point succinctly here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irnD34P2l1w

The entire video is fantastic, but the relevant portion is just after 6:30 in (and Massad poses the same question, ie would you kill if you could retreat).

"Nowhere in this country has retreat ever been demanded unless it could be accomplished with complete safety to oneself and to others."

"Can any of you here think of any situation where you would shoot a human being to death if you could have simply walked away and retreated with complete safety to oneself and to others....without trying to outrun a bullet, without trying to turn your back on a drawn knife, without trying to walk backward faster than an attacker can walk forward."

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 277
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/22/2014 10:51:30 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

That's not going to happen then... you may as well turn your gun into a bedside light... that is unless there is a mafia hit out on you.

Butch

The dog is a recent addition to my defenses.
I live in a neighborhood that is so bad that I am the only person in the area that can get pizza delivery.
That is because I promise to be on my porch ready to protect the driver.
Our gangbanger wantabees cross the street when they get to my house.
I don't worry about a home invasion and because I am prepared.
I don't worry about an assault away from the house for the same reason.
I make it a point never to look like a victim, wolfs would rather hunt sheep than grizzly.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 278
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/22/2014 1:12:18 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No you are dodging the question... If you had a choice would you retreat or kill...



Massad Ayoob addresses this very point succinctly here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irnD34P2l1w

The entire video is fantastic, but the relevant portion is just after 6:30 in (and Massad poses the same question, ie would you kill if you could retreat).

"Nowhere in this country has retreat ever been demanded unless it could be accomplished with complete safety to oneself and to others."

"Can any of you here think of any situation where you would shoot a human being to death if you could have simply walked away and retreated with complete safety to oneself and to others....without trying to outrun a bullet, without trying to turn your back on a drawn knife, without trying to walk backward faster than an attacker can walk forward."

Bullshit. SYG laws decriminalize shoot first behavior when retreating is an option. That is what it is designed to do. Self defense has always made the use of deadly force legal when no other option was available.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 279
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/22/2014 1:34:33 PM   
Tkman117


Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

That's not going to happen then... you may as well turn your gun into a bedside light... that is unless there is a mafia hit out on you.

Butch

The dog is a recent addition to my defenses.
I live in a neighborhood that is so bad that I am the only person in the area that can get pizza delivery.
That is because I promise to be on my porch ready to protect the driver.
Our gangbanger wantabees cross the street when they get to my house.
I don't worry about a home invasion and because I am prepared.
I don't worry about an assault away from the house for the same reason.
I make it a point never to look like a victim, wolfs would rather hunt sheep than grizzly.



The problem in your case clearly isn't the guns or any of that, it's the environment around you. I understand that. While I personally dislike guns, I can understand that in a bad neighbourhood, they are necessary to remind others you're willing to do what it takes to protect themselves. With that said, the real problem isn't the fact that the people around you are dangerous, it's because they have nothing else to do than be dangerous. The US has a horrible education system, and a lot of the education funding goes to places that have a fine reputation, no gangs, and no problems. The places that are already in a disadvantage are disadvantaged further because of a lack of education and a lack of opportunity. The problem about guns in america is simple; if people didn't feel threatened, they wouldn't need guns. Clearly there is a problem that is caused by variables outside of simply having guns. The already failed trickle down economics and poor education funding being the likely two-teaming culprits. Until those problems are addressed, until people of misfortune are provided better opportunities in terms of jobs and education, nothing will change. Will it get rid of gangs for good? No, but it will solve a lot of problems and allow for a proper transition out of such a gun obsessed lifestyle. Am I saying I know the solution? God no, I'm just trying to point out the problems. As soon as CEOs stop shipping jobs overseas, as soon as the rich pay their fair share, and as soon as education is prioritized as highly as the military, you'll start seeing some positive changes in your country.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 280
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