RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree

RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (Full Version)

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BamaD -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 7:23:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub But if your house was set up where you could retreat...perhaps a safe room or another exit... would you retreat? I just want to get a feeling for your mindset. Butch And realize it or not you are still advocating that the criminal owns the world.

altoonamaster -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 7:29:06 PM)
thank you bamad you hit the nail on the head

kdsub -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 7:30:19 PM)
So you will not answer... ok... I really don't think you realize how you come off... Nothing I have said is advocating criminals own the world...lol I am only advocating good sense. Butch

BamaD -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 7:36:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub So you will not answer... ok... I really don't think you realize how you come off... Nothing I have said is advocating criminals own the world...lol I am only advocating good sense. Butch If you could not decode my statement. Letting the intruder have all the advantages as you suggest would be putting my family in greater danger than taking him out. Unless you believe he is harmless.

kdsub -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 7:44:21 PM)
No you are dodging the question... If you had a choice would you retreat or kill... You are not giving anyone but yourself and your family the advantage by retreating if you can. Anytime you start shooting your family is at risk... the intruder may shoot back. Only as an absolute last resort should deadly force be used. That is your problem... you think you have a right to kill unless you have to... Tell me in your state is burglary a capital offense? If you capture the criminal and turn him over for prosecution and he is convicted will he be executed? Guns don't make you a judge Guns don't make you an executioner Guns in the hands of responsible adults are a last resort option.. not a first resort. Butch

DominantWoman65 -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 7:58:43 PM)
If I may ask Butch, have you ever been the victim of a home invasion? If so, I take it you were able to retreat. Now, think of living alone and awoken by an intruder, trying to escape but finding yourself trapped and then finding escape only after unspeakable things have been done to you. I am not in a theatre, parking lot or city street where I would look for an escape. I am in my own home, my safe haven. I will protect myself the second time around.

BamaD -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 8:00:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub No you are dodging the question... If you had a choice would you retreat or kill... You are not giving anyone but yourself and your family the advantage by retreating if you can. Anytime you start shooting your family is at risk... the intruder may shoot back. Only as an absolute last resort should deadly force be used. That is your problem... you think you have a right to kill unless you have to... Tell me in your state is burglary a capital offense? If you capture the criminal and turn him over for prosecution and he is convicted will he be executed? Guns don't make you a judge Guns don't make you an executioner Guns in the hands of responsible adults are a last resort option.. not a first resort. Butch No I am not if he has broken into my home only a fool would assume that he isn't willing to get violent If it is simplest for him. In my state they understand this. The moment he breaks into my home he, by law forfeits his right to breath. No they won't execute him for burglary but they are not foolish enough to think he would stop at that. And if you thought about it you would know that trying to get them out of the house makes them better targets than having them lay down while you deal with the intruder. If he threw his hands up and surrendered I would hold him for the police but, unlike you, I will not give him a free shot.

kdsub -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 8:05:11 PM)
So... then cutting through your verbose answer... I got you... You would kill even though you don't have to. Now i understand your position on all things guns. Butch

BamaD -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 8:05:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub No you are dodging the question... If you had a choice would you retreat or kill... You are not giving anyone but yourself and your family the advantage by retreating if you can. Anytime you start shooting your family is at risk... the intruder may shoot back. Only as an absolute last resort should deadly force be used. That is your problem... you think you have a right to kill unless you have to... Tell me in your state is burglary a capital offense? If you capture the criminal and turn him over for prosecution and he is convicted will he be executed? Guns don't make you a judge Guns don't make you an executioner Guns in the hands of responsible adults are a last resort option.. not a first resort. Butch If he comes on in after my Doberman advises him not to it is only reasonable to assume he isn't there for a beer.

BamaD -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 8:08:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub So... then cutting through your verbose answer... I got you... You would kill even though you don't have to. Now i understand your position on all things guns. Butch No you don't. You have an unreasonable faith in the value of co-operation. You turn over everything you have including your family if you want to, I won't.

kdsub -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 8:36:53 PM)
quote: If I may ask Butch, have you ever been the victim of a home invasion? If so, I take it you were able to retreat. Now, think of living alone and awoken by an intruder, trying to escape but finding yourself trapped and then finding escape only after unspeakable things have been done to you. I am not in a theatre, parking lot or city street where I would look for an escape. I am in my own home, my safe haven. I will protect myself the second time around. DominantWoman If I found myself in a situation where I could not retreat I still would not shoot unless I had to... why... because bullets do not have brains. If you lived in my area you would hear almost every week where someone was shot by bullets coming through walls or windows. They were not the target but shot anyway. This is not unusual... it happens all the time...And... it could happen to a child in their room when confronting an intruder with a gun... interior walls seldom stop bullets. Now I have a shotgun... less chance of killing innocents but I also have a lock on it and most likely would be of little use in a house invasion. I have young grand kids over all the time... and the chance of them getting to a readily accessible loaded gun is hundreds of times more likely to happen than an armed intruder breaking in my home. I am much better off, and so would you, having good locks and an alarm...This is cheaper than a hand gun and provides much better protection. Butch ps... DominantWoman...despite what some think if I had no choice I would shoot...but unlike some it would be my last option... And finally I cannot know the horrors you went through and I can only have sympathy for you...but I still believe you would be better off with strong doors...locks and a good alarm than blasting away at shadows.

BamaD -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 8:50:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: If I may ask Butch, have you ever been the victim of a home invasion? If so, I take it you were able to retreat. Now, think of living alone and awoken by an intruder, trying to escape but finding yourself trapped and then finding escape only after unspeakable things have been done to you. I am not in a theatre, parking lot or city street where I would look for an escape. I am in my own home, my safe haven. I will protect myself the second time around. DominantWoman If I found myself in a situation where I could not retreat I still would not shoot unless I had to... why... because bullets do not have brains. If you lived in my area you would hear almost every week where someone was shot by bullets coming through walls or windows. They were not the target but shot anyway. This is not unusual... it happens all the time...And... it could happen to a child in their room when confronting an intruder with a gun... interior walls seldom stop bullets. Now I have a shotgun... less chance of killing innocents but I also have a lock on it and most likely would be of little use in a house invasion. I have young grand kids over all the time... and the chance of them getting to a readily accessible loaded gun is hundreds of times more likely to happen than an armed intruder breaking in my home. I am much better off, and so would you, having good locks and an alarm...This is cheaper than a hand gun and provides much better protection. Butch Any static defense will be overcome. A dog is the best first line of defense.

kdsub -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 9:04:47 PM)
Now your're talking... No burglar will get through my locks without waking me and my dog is even louder. Butch

BamaD -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 9:07:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Now your're talking... No burglar will get through my locks without waking me and my dog is even louder. Butch As I said earlier if they ignore my Dobermans advice to go away it is fair to assume they are somewhat hostile.

kdsub -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/21/2014 9:16:41 PM)
That's not going to happen then... you may as well turn your gun into a bedside light... that is unless there is a mafia hit out on you. Butch

DominantWoman65 -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/22/2014 4:18:07 AM)
Butch, thank you for replying and answering my question, I do agree with a lot of your opinions and I do value human life and I also believe there needs to be changes made to SYG. I thought my home was safe. I had good locks, a dog and an alarm system. Problem is I knew my intruder, he knew the house very well, (it was our family home) which may make my situation a little different. I now live over 800 miles away and have become even more trained. I have my permit for my handgun and mace, my 410 and Louisville is always under the bed and behind my door. I know every inch of my condo blindfolded and my military brothers made sure that I have amazing NVG goggles so that I can more readily identify my target if need be. If it ever comes to a day that I have to make a decision, I will choose my life.

Raiikun -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/22/2014 8:24:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub No you are dodging the question... If you had a choice would you retreat or kill... Massad Ayoob addresses this very point succinctly here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irnD34P2l1w The entire video is fantastic, but the relevant portion is just after 6:30 in (and Massad poses the same question, ie would you kill if you could retreat). "Nowhere in this country has retreat ever been demanded unless it could be accomplished with complete safety to oneself and to others." "Can any of you here think of any situation where you would shoot a human being to death if you could have simply walked away and retreated with complete safety to oneself and to others....without trying to outrun a bullet, without trying to turn your back on a drawn knife, without trying to walk backward faster than an attacker can walk forward."

BamaD -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/22/2014 10:51:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub That's not going to happen then... you may as well turn your gun into a bedside light... that is unless there is a mafia hit out on you. Butch The dog is a recent addition to my defenses. I live in a neighborhood that is so bad that I am the only person in the area that can get pizza delivery. That is because I promise to be on my porch ready to protect the driver. Our gangbanger wantabees cross the street when they get to my house. I don't worry about a home invasion and because I am prepared. I don't worry about an assault away from the house for the same reason. I make it a point never to look like a victim, wolfs would rather hunt sheep than grizzly.

DomKen -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/22/2014 1:12:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub No you are dodging the question... If you had a choice would you retreat or kill... Massad Ayoob addresses this very point succinctly here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irnD34P2l1w The entire video is fantastic, but the relevant portion is just after 6:30 in (and Massad poses the same question, ie would you kill if you could retreat). "Nowhere in this country has retreat ever been demanded unless it could be accomplished with complete safety to oneself and to others." "Can any of you here think of any situation where you would shoot a human being to death if you could have simply walked away and retreated with complete safety to oneself and to others....without trying to outrun a bullet, without trying to turn your back on a drawn knife, without trying to walk backward faster than an attacker can walk forward." Bullshit. SYG laws decriminalize shoot first behavior when retreating is an option. That is what it is designed to do. Self defense has always made the use of deadly force legal when no other option was available.

Tkman117 -> RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree (2/22/2014 1:34:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub That's not going to happen then... you may as well turn your gun into a bedside light... that is unless there is a mafia hit out on you. Butch The dog is a recent addition to my defenses. I live in a neighborhood that is so bad that I am the only person in the area that can get pizza delivery. That is because I promise to be on my porch ready to protect the driver. Our gangbanger wantabees cross the street when they get to my house. I don't worry about a home invasion and because I am prepared. I don't worry about an assault away from the house for the same reason. I make it a point never to look like a victim, wolfs would rather hunt sheep than grizzly. The problem in your case clearly isn't the guns or any of that, it's the environment around you. I understand that. While I personally dislike guns, I can understand that in a bad neighbourhood, they are necessary to remind others you're willing to do what it takes to protect themselves. With that said, the real problem isn't the fact that the people around you are dangerous, it's because they have nothing else to do than be dangerous. The US has a horrible education system, and a lot of the education funding goes to places that have a fine reputation, no gangs, and no problems. The places that are already in a disadvantage are disadvantaged further because of a lack of education and a lack of opportunity. The problem about guns in america is simple; if people didn't feel threatened, they wouldn't need guns. Clearly there is a problem that is caused by variables outside of simply having guns. The already failed trickle down economics and poor education funding being the likely two-teaming culprits. Until those problems are addressed, until people of misfortune are provided better opportunities in terms of jobs and education, nothing will change. Will it get rid of gangs for good? No, but it will solve a lot of problems and allow for a proper transition out of such a gun obsessed lifestyle. Am I saying I know the solution? God no, I'm just trying to point out the problems. As soon as CEOs stop shipping jobs overseas, as soon as the rich pay their fair share, and as soon as education is prioritized as highly as the military, you'll start seeing some positive changes in your country.

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