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Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 2:51:01 AM

orgasmdenial12

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I should first of all point out that this is not currently an issue for me, it's simply a difference in approaches that I've noticed in others and am curious about.

My perspective on submission is that it makes me very malleable - I become willing and able to change to suit their desires and preferences. Sometimes this happens pretty easily and automatically if I notice they like something; other times it's a conscious process of training and conditioning, to learn to like something that I wasn't into previously - for example, rope or watersports.

However I have noticed another school of thought whereby some Doms are not willing to change a sub or believe that any change should come about naturally. They will stick to what they know the sub likes or can handle, rather than attempting any overt changes.

So my question is - can you change a sub? And, if so, what is the mechanism or process for achieving that change?

If the answer is no - why is that? And what is your thinking behind it? Do Doms ever feel limited by what their sub is into or can handle?

Post #: 1

RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 2:55:51 AM

AncitaAW

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I believe the sub can change

I believe that the environment plays apart in the outcome, as does the relationship to the Dom or Domme can change

It really depends on the individual

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)

Post #: 2

RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 3:00:35 AM

crazyml

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The witty response is yeah sure... changing subs is easy, get rid of the old one and find a new one.

The (only slightly) more considered response is...

Yes and no. To begin with, you mention your "malleability", I see this as service orientation, a desire (perhaps "need") to please. I wonder if, though, you'd take to attending Rascist meetings at the behest of your dom?

I'm pretty sure that there'll be limits to your willingness to adapt to better please a partner. I'd bet you have a set of values that you'd really struggle to ignore/override/give up.

Discovering new things, or re-exploring things that you once disliked seems to be a natural (and I'd say essential) part of a relationship. I've had limits that applied with one partner, which were thrown completely away with another.

As for how the change is handled - I guess it depends on the change. But conditioning is certainly one. More than one of my exes, for example, laughs with me that they still find themselves doing things that they began doing in order to please me.

The other way to look at it is to go back to the "exploring" idea. With some partners, perhaps because of chemistry, trust, or the level of submission you'll be more willing to explore more things.

As for can I change a sub... I would not want to change a sub in terms of her values, beliefs, aspirations. I'd be careful to pick one whose values and beliefs were compatible with my own, and in a relationship I'd want to support her in pursuing her aspirations.

Do I ever feel limited by what my sub is into or can handle... Yeah, it's happened in the past. Usually as a consequence of a poor choice on my part (and hers).

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 3:06:45 AM

orgasmdenial12

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
Yes and no. To begin with, you mention your "malleability", I see this as service orientation, a desire (perhaps "need") to please. I wonder if, though, you'd take to attending Rascist meetings at the behest of your dom?

I'm pretty sure that there'll be limits to your willingness to adapt to better please a partner. I'd bet you have a set of values that you'd really struggle to ignore/override/give up.

True.

I should point out that I'm referring mostly to typical sexual / s&m and D/s (or M/s) preferences for activities rather than, say, changing political beliefs, losing weight or changing features of their personality, though I am still interested to hear opinions on those too, from anyone who has had experience of them.

For example, if a sub is not into pain you can either accept that and work within the limits they have, or you can try to change it and open their mind to taking more. Way, way back in the day I didn't like pain at all but I had a Dom who loved it and set about training me to like it. The fact that I'm still a masochist 13 years later suggests it was pretty successful lol. But I've since played with Doms who wouldn't try to change or train a sub at all, and I'm curious about that.

(in reply to crazyml)

Post #: 4

RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 3:09:12 AM

crazyml

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Oh in that case... fuck yeah I love introducing subs to new kinks, preference, filthy activities.

You should see the smirk that appears when she says "I swore I would NEVER be into that".

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Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

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Post #: 5

RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 3:18:58 AM

orgasmdenial12

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Oh in that case... fuck yeah I love introducing subs to new kinks, preference, filthy activities.

You should see the smirk that appears when she says "I swore I would NEVER be into that".

Cool. How do you go about training or conditioning them to be into it?

(in reply to crazyml)

Post #: 6

RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 4:00:03 AM

crazyml

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Well... to be honest I don't have an evil master plan, and don't necessarily set out to "condition", but...

So in the past I've asked playmates to submit to a small regular act of submission. It might be as simple as "you will wear white panties unless told otherwise". It becomes a habit, and soon it's something they find hard not to do... But they still remember why...

Those small regular acts probably create a "habit" of obedience, which allows you to extend the control.

This is all in danger of sounding a little bit Fu Man Chu though.

When it comes to pushing boundaries... I think trust is the most important element. If she trusts that I'll not push her too too far, if she trusts that I'd support her if it really didn't work for her, and that if it ended up being ridiculous that we'd both be able to laugh about it (And fuck knows, I've tried some things that wound up being ridiculous rather than erotic in my time).

The bottom line is... if you've found a chap (the lucky lucky bastard) who you like, respect, and trust enough to want to explore deeper (perhaps darker) things then... we'll you know... tally ho!

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)

Post #: 7

RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 4:16:04 AM

sunshinemiss

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Oh in that case... fuck yeah I love introducing subs to new kinks, preference, filthy activities.

I'm sure I speak for all the "laydeez" when I say that you really ought to tell us ... in exquisite detail... what those were and how you did it.

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(in reply to crazyml)

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 4:18:59 AM

myotherself

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As a sub myself, I will do things that Master wants me to do. However, I made sure before we started out together that his hard limits and mine were a pretty good match.

Having said that, there are things that I won't enjoy regardless of how much I love him or however much he would love those activities, not even if they made him the happiest man alive while he was doing them. Examples would be knife and needle play. Never gonna happen. Shibari - I will tolerate it to a point, but then it becomes a dreadful ordeal and I panic.

Those things won't ever change.

However, there are other things that I'm sure have changed already, based on being with him. There are other s&m activities he loves that I find pretty 'meh', but now I'm finding I'm looking forward to them because his excitement and sexual energy is contagious.

So yeah, I can see an increase in enjoyment/interest in things I used to find boring, but not so much in my hard limit stuff.

_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)

Post #: 9

RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 5:59:15 AM

orgasmdenial12

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quote:

ORIGINAL: myotherself
There are other s&m activities he loves that I find pretty 'meh', but now I'm finding I'm looking forward to them because his excitement and sexual energy is contagious.

Yeah, I totally get that. Seeing a Dom you like all excited and turned on by something you're doing really is contagious. Has he ever deliberately set out to get you to change like that, that you're aware of?

(in reply to myotherself)

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 6:09:49 AM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12
I should point out that I'm referring mostly to typical sexual / s&m and D/s (or M/s) preferences for activities rather than, say, changing political beliefs, losing weight or changing features of their personality, though I am still interested to hear opinions on those too, from anyone who has had experience of them.

Your examples get all weird because what you class as trivial someone else may see as core.

In easy stuff (sexual preference for example), change happens automatically in any relationship I would be in simply because we love each other. Were that not true I'd terminate the relationship due to lack of intimacy and caring.

Harder stuff is... well... harder and it's going to be unique for each individual. Some of the harder stuff goes into the impossible bin. Generally when I want such changes in Carol I don't play games with it. To quote my favorite line on the topic from a long ago poster, there are no svengali-esque mind control tricks. I simply tell her how I want her to view the situation and then she starts the heavy lifting of changing her viewpoint. It's nothing more than a lot of discipline on her part being powered by a lot of trust and respect for me. I certainly don't think those characteristics have anything to do with being dominant or submissive. They have to do with being a quality partner and yes, I change at Carol's need in similar ways.

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(in reply to orgasmdenial12)

Post #: 11

RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 6:17:58 AM

orgasmdenial12

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12
I should point out that I'm referring mostly to typical sexual / s&m and D/s (or M/s) preferences for activities rather than, say, changing political beliefs, losing weight or changing features of their personality, though I am still interested to hear opinions on those too, from anyone who has had experience of them.

Your examples get all weird because what you class as trivial someone else may see as core.

At no point did I say anything was trivial or core :-)

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 12

RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 6:20:45 AM

myotherself

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yeah, there are a couple of things that I wasn't fussed about that I now absolutely adore - but only with him.

He loves to cane. And use his leather belt. Although I'm never going to be a great lover of the cane, I now love the belt. Yet when someone else did it to me at a play party a year or so ago, I was back to being 'meh' again.

_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk

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Post #: 13

RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 6:25:52 AM

chatterbox24

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I think the question I ask myself, is not can you change a sub but should you?

IT really does matter about compatibility in multiple areas. It really does matter where both are coming from internally. It really does matter if your in a place of stability knowing who you are and what you need or want. Are you following your core beliefs? If you don't truly know yourself, what you will settle for and what you wont, the experience can be quite damaging.
I found myself in a situation of my own creation, seeking, and I wasn't prepared for what I would find. I really didn't know myself, and that was not good.
Did I find excitement, passion, lust, and maybe even love yes, but since the Dom was coming from a much different place then I was, and different values then I did, even though at the time I wasn't practicing, and had strayed, it was a huge mess.
I found myself in a total state of confusion and sorrow. There wasn't a reward system. It was all give, give, give and take take take. Absolutely no balance to the relationship. The person I was with, certainly didn't care, as long as he was getting what he wanted. I found myself in a position, of experiencing being a masochist when I wasn't one at all, and being under the influence of something I had a ton of trouble getting out of. It went back to the old thing a lot of us do "Maybe things will change" We tend to like to fool ourselves. I wanted some TLC and got quite the opposite, and I truly believe I got what I got, because I wasn't in tune with myself nor following values I had but had buried or ignored.
I think you can change a sub, if both of you are compatible, and its the right path for you both, they absolutely will feel inspired and want to change. But if those very important aspects of compatibility are not met, the sub may pretend for a while, but in the end, their core will kick in, and those changes were not real, it was forced to try to please, and they don't change those inflexible things within. THe relationship does not last the test of time.
,

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 6:26:46 AM

orgasmdenial12

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Joined: 9/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
It becomes a habit, and soon it's something they find hard not to do... But they still remember why...

Those small regular acts probably create a "habit" of obedience, which allows you to extend the control.

See I think I still need to explain a little more what it is I'm asking here.

I know *many* submissives who will do whatever their Dom tells them to - that's obedience, but I'm not really talking about obedience. I'm talking about changing whether or not they *like* it. i.e. turning someone who is scared of rope into someone who very much enjoys rope. Alternatively, if you get a sub to do something, she does it completely obediently to please you but when you ask her about it, she says it was 'okay' would you think 'ah she just doesn't like it' and not do it again?

To clarify - can you change what a sub does or doesn't *like* (not just what they will or won't do). And, if you can change what they *like* how do you go about doing that? Is it simple repetition to accustom them? Is it a combination of obedience and pleasure? Or is it not something you consciously do at all?

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
The bottom line is... if you've found a chap (the lucky lucky bastard) who you like, respect, and trust enough to want to explore deeper (perhaps darker) things then... we'll you know... tally ho!

Lol, once again, it's not about me or my current situation - I got that covered ;-)

(in reply to crazyml)

Post #: 15

RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 6:30:43 AM

crazyml

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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
It becomes a habit, and soon it's something they find hard not to do... But they still remember why...

Those small regular acts probably create a "habit" of obedience, which allows you to extend the control.

See I think I still need to explain a little more what it is I'm asking here.

I know *many* submissives who will do whatever their Dom tells them to - that's obedience, but I'm not really talking about obedience. I'm talking about changing whether or not they *like* it. i.e. turning someone who is scared of rope into someone who very much enjoys rope. Alternatively, if you get a sub to do something, she does it completely obediently to please you but when you ask her about it, she says it was 'okay' would you think 'ah she just doesn't like it' and not do it again?

To clarify - can you change what a sub does or doesn't *like* (not just what they will or won't do). And, if you can change what they *like* how do you go about doing that? Is it simple repetition to accustom them? Is it a combination of obedience and pleasure? Or is it not something you consciously do at all?

I don't do it all that consciously (so I probably can't really add much more). Except that it's a combination of obedience and pleasure, trust, clarity of expectations and the strength of my will.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
The bottom line is... if you've found a chap (the lucky lucky bastard) who you like, respect, and trust enough to want to explore deeper (perhaps darker) things then... we'll you know... tally ho!

Lol, once again, it's not about me or my current situation - I got that covered ;-)

Hush! I know... but you see the general point in there I am sure.

g.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 6:37:24 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Oh in that case... fuck yeah I love introducing subs to new kinks, preference, filthy activities.

I'm sure I speak for all the "laydeez" when I say that you really ought to tell us ... in exquisite detail... what those were and how you did it.

Another vote for exquisite detail!

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 17

RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 6:41:40 AM

kalikshama

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Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

However I have noticed another school of thought whereby some Doms are not willing to change a sub or believe that any change should come about naturally. They will stick to what they know the sub likes or can handle, rather than attempting any overt changes.

quote:

I should point out that I'm referring mostly to typical sexual / s&m and D/s (or M/s) preferences for activities rather than, say, changing political beliefs, losing weight or changing features of their personality, though I am still interested to hear opinions on those too, from anyone who has had experience of them.

For example, if a sub is not into pain you can either accept that and work within the limits they have, or you can try to change it and open their mind to taking more. Way, way back in the day I didn't like pain at all but I had a Dom who loved it and set about training me to like it. The fact that I'm still a masochist 13 years later suggests it was pretty successful lol. But I've since played with Doms who wouldn't try to change or train a sub at all, and I'm curious about that.

I actually don't know any doms like that. My man certainly slowly introduced me to his kinks, which were somewhat different than mine.

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)

Post #: 18

RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 7:13:52 AM

orgasmdenial12

Posts: 613
Joined: 9/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
My man certainly slowly introduced me to his kinks, which were somewhat different than mine.

And how do you feel about them now? Is it acceptance / obedience / tolerating them or do you wholeheartedly enjoy them?

(in reply to kalikshama)

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 7:22:29 AM

kalikshama

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Having the best orgasms of my life pretty much says it all

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)

Post #: 20

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