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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 7:34:37 AM   
Nakhla


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I find myself facing a chicken/egg scenario here.

I have changed for the dominant men in my life. In terms of how I look, act, things I will and will not do.

At the same time, I'm also innately malleable. A lot of people talk in terms of trying and adapting to new things in a narrative of tremendous inner struggle, which, for the vast majority of things, has never been the case for me. He wants it, I do it, I may or may not enjoy it at the time or later, but I'm happy he's happy.

Did I actually change, or was my personality flexible enough in the first place that it was already inherently able to do those things? I really don't have an answer.



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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 8:29:14 AM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		You can change behavior, you cannot change personality.

And some dominants get off on changing behaviors, others prefer to pick someone whose behavior they are fine with.

But anyone who has raised children, has probably spent more than enough time trying to change someone's behavior. To a point where it's considered work, not fun.

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 8:39:14 AM   
PhoenixDynasty


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Status: offline 		Yes, you can change either or both their behavior or their nature.

Changing behavior is a simple matter of training.

Changing their nature is conditioning and education to cause a paradigm shift. Sometimes it's as simple as explaining your view in a way they understand. Then it becomes part of their way of thinking. I have changed my slaves nature in several areas over the pat year. Because she is "willing and able to change to suit their [her] desires and preferences"

< Message edited by PhoenixDynasty -- 2/20/2014 8:42:22 AM >

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 8:43:59 AM   
MisterP61


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Status: offline 		Now who have I seen on the forums who looks like the gentleman in this picture?

I would hope that a sub would change on their own, and not because I made them. Malleable is great, but the clay also needs to have a certain tensile strength to hold what it is molded into.

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 8:51:18 AM   
PhoenixDynasty


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:)

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 8:59:08 AM   
ARIES83


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Status: offline 		Interesting thread OD12.

quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

I should point out that I'm referring mostly to typical sexual / s&m and D/s (or M/s) preferences for activities rather than, say, changing political beliefs, losing weight or changing features of their personality, though I am still interested to hear opinions on those too, from anyone who has had experience of them.

For example, if a sub is not into pain you can either accept that and work within the limits they have, or you can try to change it and open their mind to taking more. Way, way back in the day I didn't like pain at all but I had a Dom who loved it and set about training me to like it. The fact that I'm still a masochist 13 years later suggests it was pretty successful lol. But I've since played with Doms who wouldn't try to change or train a sub at all, and I'm curious about that.


Well it's more a people question, even though you are focused on the sexual or D/s stuff.
People's tastes and preferences can change over time... and they can be changed... new experiences, trying new things, external influences, all that stuff.

quote:

So my question is - can you change a sub? And, if so, what is the mechanism or process for achieving that change?


With a partner I try and break down barriers, everyone has them even if they don't really see them as barriers. I don't want them between me and my partner, there are emotional barriers which guard at the expense of openness, trust barriers, comfort barriers, personal physical barriers, which all propagate limits.

The Mechanism or Process depends on the situation and person really, but broadly... I just be persistent, whether its persistently firm, or gentle, or uncompromising, or encouraging... you get the idea.

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 2/20/2014 9:37:18 AM >

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 9:00:26 AM   
ExiledTyrant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

I should first of all point out that this is not currently an issue for me, it's simply a difference in approaches that I've noticed in others and am curious about.

My perspective on submission is that it makes me very malleable - I become willing and able to change to suit their desires and preferences. Sometimes this happens pretty easily and automatically if I notice they like something; other times it's a conscious process of training and conditioning, to learn to like something that I wasn't into previously - for example, rope or watersports.

However I have noticed another school of thought whereby some Doms are not willing to change a sub or believe that any change should come about naturally. They will stick to what they know the sub likes or can handle, rather than attempting any overt changes.

So my question is - can you change a sub? And, if so, what is the mechanism or process for achieving that change?

If the answer is no - why is that? And what is your thinking behind it? Do Doms ever feel limited by what their sub is into or can handle?


This may light a fire, but it's okay cuz I'm a prick like that.

The first bolded section of your OP is the key. It is part of the human condition, we do not change what we do not perceive as wrong. Alcoholics remain alcoholics until they have a moment of clarity, junkies, hoarders... These are all extreme examples, but have the same power. I see people in restaurants pushing food onto their forks with their thumb, and they don't know better, won't change this, and can't change this until they have a moment of clarity and realize that etiquette dictates they should be HORSE WHIPPED!

Second bolded section: Regardless of what side of the kneel you're on, if you do not perceive it as wrong, it will not change. No matter how much it may irk me that your behavior X is wrong, the only power I have over it is to bring you around to a "moment of clarity" and you want to change it, know that it is wrong in our dynamic, and are ready to modify/change it, or I accept it and live with it, or I kick your ass to the curb.

Does that make me undomly, or not Dom enough? Nope, that makes me smart enough to avoid a broken situation that I cannot fix.

"Yeah, she was wonderful in every way, but her collection of used q-tips displayed on the mantel was more than I could bear."


Jus sayin
Exiled


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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 12:26:24 PM   
Inghammar


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Status: offline 		Just as a dominant desires exertion of control in certain ways - a submissive desires to submit in certain ways. There is some plasticity but it's important for both the dominant and the submissive to have mature understanding of themselves and what is of primary importance in a power exchange relationship. If sadism and flogging is something of primary importance to a dominant, seeking someone who is just into being tied in rope and hoping her subspace would allow for sadism is a risky gamble.

I don't believe anyone can be all things to all people. For instance I impose a strict level of control and objectification that I would never want to employ upon someone who was doing that just to please me. I require a partner who needs to be controlled that way. I do not care personally for struggle or distress since what I do requires a lot of cooperation.


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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 12:33:43 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12
I should point out that I'm referring mostly to typical sexual / s&m and D/s (or M/s) preferences for activities rather than, say, changing political beliefs, losing weight or changing features of their personality, though I am still interested to hear opinions on those too, from anyone who has had experience of them.

Your examples get all weird because what you class as trivial someone else may see as core.

In easy stuff (sexual preference for example), change happens automatically in any relationship I would be in simply because we love each other. Were that not true I'd terminate the relationship due to lack of intimacy and caring.

Harder stuff is... well... harder and it's going to be unique for each individual. Some of the harder stuff goes into the impossible bin. Generally when I want such changes in Carol I don't play games with it. To quote my favorite line on the topic from a long ago poster, there are no svengali-esque mind control tricks. I simply tell her how I want her to view the situation and then she starts the heavy lifting of changing her viewpoint. It's nothing more than a lot of discipline on her part being powered by a lot of trust and respect for me. I certainly don't think those characteristics have anything to do with being dominant or submissive. They have to do with being a quality partner and yes, I change at Carol's need in similar ways.


I agree. I don't equate what happens during kinky sex as being submissive. It's all the other stuff in our life that says I'm submissive. If he wants something new sexually, as long as it's not on my hard limit list, all he has to do is discuss it.


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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 1:00:32 PM   
sunshinemiss


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Status: offline 		Someone who didn't know enough decided to make me like something I hated. He paired what I hated with what I loved so I would associate the negative with the positive. Made me hate what I had previously loved.

Of course there are ways to change ASSOCIATIONS, change behaviors, change stuff... but change the PERSON? No.

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 1:29:57 PM   
orgasmdenial12


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
I agree. I don't equate what happens during kinky sex as being submissive.


At no point did I say that kinky sex was submissive. This is about s&m, D/s and M/s activities.

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 1:45:49 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
I agree. I don't equate what happens during kinky sex as being submissive.


At no point did I say that kinky sex was submissive. This is about s&m, D/s and M/s activities.


But, your examples were about kinky sex. They weren't about changing behavior outside of kinky sex. And since you can engage in BDSM without ever engaging in D/s and engage in D/s without engaging in BDSM - I found your examples to be equating the bottom in kinky sex to being submissive.


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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 1:46:00 PM   
GoddessManko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Someone who didn't know enough decided to make me like something I hated. He paired what I hated with what I loved so I would associate the negative with the positive. Made me hate what I had previously loved.

Of course there are ways to change ASSOCIATIONS, change behaviors, change stuff... but change the PERSON? No.


This exactly, think of it as trimming a bonsai tree. You can gently (and I use that term loosely) guide a sub into what fits your ideal if the foundation of a GREAT D/s relationship is there, (compatibility factors and what not). But to take that Bonsai tree and try to make it grow apples? Not happening. You need to realistically be compatible or the relationship is doomed to fail despite all your BEST efforts.

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 1:57:08 PM   
KnightofMists


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Status: offline 		It's really a yes and no answer. I can't change lead to gold. But I can take that hunk of gold and make a gold ring.

When it comes to people. A lot of changes are possible but there are still going to be things that don't make it possible.

I don't believe there is a particular hard and fast rule of what one can change and what one can't change. So many variables that come to play. The skill of the d type, the adaptability of the S type and the change one us trying to bring about. It really a case by case basis.

Personally... I don't like the change or else approach. Or the forcing and pushing to get change. This might because I live a poly lifestyle and I am not going to put my energy into one at the expense of many to force change unless the benefits are huge and out way the efforts/scarifices. I much prefer an s type that seaks and strives to be adaptable an embraces a desire to change and evolve with the relationship. It not to say that the change is easy. Just that we don't have to fights if one should change or not. Change is an accepted part of my life and I desire my slaves to embrace that in their slavehood with me.

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 5:22:56 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

I should first of all point out that this is not currently an issue for me, it's simply a difference in approaches that I've noticed in others and am curious about.

My perspective on submission is that it makes me very malleable - I become willing and able to change to suit their desires and preferences. Sometimes this happens pretty easily and automatically if I notice they like something; other times it's a conscious process of training and conditioning, to learn to like something that I wasn't into previously - for example, rope or watersports.

However I have noticed another school of thought whereby some Doms are not willing to change a sub or believe that any change should come about naturally. They will stick to what they know the sub likes or can handle, rather than attempting any overt changes.

So my question is - can you change a sub? And, if so, what is the mechanism or process for achieving that change?

If the answer is no - why is that? And what is your thinking behind it? Do Doms ever feel limited by what their sub is into or can handle?


He can change anything at all that he wishes, except my morals and values. Those are ingrained in me and who I am. Anything else though is just not important to me so if he wants me to change something about me, I do it.

ETA: After reading some of your responses, yeah...sexual stuff is easy to change. I don't like pain but I've learned to overcome some of it and others I take for him. He can change anything at all about me. That doesn't mean I will like it. If I like it, great. If I don't and he loves it, then that's fine too. He'll continue to do it if he wants.

But this kind of stuff is small potatoes and nothing even get all worked up about. Very few things in life are really all that important from my experiences in life.



< Message edited by littlewonder -- 2/20/2014 5:30:13 PM >

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/20/2014 6:44:04 PM   
catize


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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12
So my question is - can you change a sub? And, if so, what is the mechanism or process for achieving that change?[/quote]


..............Depends

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/21/2014 4:44:27 AM   
orgasmdenial12


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
But, your examples were about kinky sex.


My examples were watersports, rope bondage and pain. None of these are sex :-)

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/21/2014 4:53:19 AM   
kalikshama


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Status: offline 		Watersports, rope bondage and pain are (kinky) sex for me.

/goes back to rethink earlier answer/

Ok, in my current relationship, I am also submissive outside the bedroom, so kink wise, I now have the willingness to do things "for him." I had a play partner who tried to introduce me to this concept, but since we didn't have a relationship outside the bedroom, I couldn't conceptualize why I should or would do something I didn't like "for him."

As a bottom, I said "No" a lot more. If the Top wanted something with which I was not familiar, I'd give it a shot, but if I didn't like it, wouldn't do it again. I am willing to endure much more for my man. Not pain, which arouses me, but discomfort, which does not.

quote:

However I have noticed another school of thought whereby some Doms are not willing to change a sub or believe that any change should come about naturally. They will stick to what they know the sub likes or can handle, rather than attempting any overt changes.

Are these people in a D/s relationship outside the bedroom?



< Message edited by kalikshama -- 2/21/2014 5:52:00 AM >

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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/21/2014 5:49:02 AM   
ARIES83


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RE: Can you change a sub? - 2/21/2014 5:56:29 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		One of the awesome things about human beings is that they are in the constant state of flux. I don't mean (necessarily) their personality or their sense of integrity, but certainly their opinions and often their actions change quite a bit overtime.

Humans are imminently adaptable, which is why we're at the apex of the evolutionary ladder.

So yes of course you can make someone change. How you go about it is very dependent on the persons involved. For instance, I have been working on my sub's self esteem (specifically his self esteem towards women, he has mostly good self esteem in the rest of his life).

This is a project of several years. I don't expect him to change overnight, that's not a reasonable expectation.

RS said this:

quote:

Changing their nature is conditioning and education to cause a paradigm shift. Sometimes it's as simple as explaining your view in a way they understand. Then it becomes part of their way of thinking. I have changed my slaves nature in several areas over the pat year. Because she is "willing and able to change to suit their [her] desires and preferences"


There are many things you can do to condition and educate -- provided you have a sub willing to be conditioned and educated.

Like most people, my sub is not always willing to change. He has become more malleable to change over time.

As for the OP's last paragraph:

quote:

However I have noticed another school of thought whereby some Doms are not willing to change a sub or believe that any change should come about naturally. They will stick to what they know the sub likes or can handle, rather than attempting any overt changes.


I think most dominants want to effect change, it's part of what makes them dominant, thinking they can engender a positive paradigm shift in another person. Wanting a person to change and being unwilling to do anything about it is passive-aggressive to me.

I don't know anyone who likes passive-aggressive.

Changes of behavior do not always have to be major paradigm shifts, sometimes they're very simple.

In my relationship with Himself, I tend to be the talkative one, no big surprise there. Sometimes he just says, 'Stop talking.'

< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 2/21/2014 5:59:18 AM >

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