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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 9:49:09 AM   
Lucylastic


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http://news.yahoo.com/man-shot-woman-porch-face-murder-trial-162441065.html

DEARBORN HEIGHTS, Mich. (AP) — A Detroit-area man who fatally shot a drunk, unarmed woman on his porch will stand trial for second-degree murder, a judge said Thursday, rejecting a self-defense argument for the killer's "bad choice."
There is no dispute that Theodore Wafer shot Renisha McBride, 19, through the screen of his front door in the early hours of Nov. 2. His attorneys said the 54-year-old man feared for his life, but Dearborn Heights Judge David Turfe said there were other ways to protect himself, including a phone call for help.
"This court recognizes you can't automatically penalize someone for making a bad decision when pressed to react quickly," the judge said. "But at the same time we can't allow one to use a bad decision as a shield to criminal prosecution.
"The defendant made a bad choice when there were other reasonable opportunities," Turfe said.
The standard for a court to order someone to trial in Michigan is not as high as beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the common, traditional threshold to win a criminal conviction. Prosecutors must show only a portion of their evidence at this stage. Indeed, Wafer apparently made a one-hour recorded statement to police, but it was not introduced, despite efforts by his lawyers.
Defense attorney Cheryl Carpenter said Wafer didn't intend to kill McBride, only protect himself. She referred to Michigan's 2006 self-defense law.
"If someone is breaking into a home there is a presumption that a homeowner can use deadly force," she argued.
"You don't know how many people are out there. ... There's violent banging on the front door. We have a man alone in his home," Carpenter said.
But Wayne County assistant prosecutor Danielle Hagaman-Clark said it's "ridiculous" to believe that Wafer was deeply afraid yet still decided to open the door and fire instead of first calling Dearborn Heights police.
"He shoved that shotgun in her face and pulled the trigger," Hagaman-Clark said.
Civil rights groups have suggested that race may have played a role in the shooting, but prosecutors presented no evidence to make that connection. Wafer is white, while McBride was black.
Wafer called 911 around 4:30 a.m. and said he had shot someone who was banging on his door. More than three hours earlier, McBride had crashed her car into a parked car in a residential neighborhood, about a half-mile away in Detroit.
A witness said McBride was bleeding and holding her head. She apparently walked away from the scene before an ambulance arrived. It's still unclear, at least publicly, what she did between the time of the car wreck and her arrival on Wafer's porch.
An autopsy found McBride had a blood-alcohol level of about 0.22, more than twice the legal limit for driving. She also had been smoking marijuana.
Her best friend, Amber Jenkins, 18, said they had been drinking vodka and playing cards seven to eight hours before the shooting was reported to 911.
Spectators, mostly McBride's family and friends, left the courtroom immediately after the judge's decision. Wafer, an airport maintenance worker, lingered and appeared dazed as he stood and looked out a courtroom window. He thanked his attorneys and left through a back door.
A second-degree murder conviction can carry a sentence of up to life in prison. A trial judge would have discretion.
Carpenter told reporters the ruling was a disappointment.
"We look forward to trial where you will get all of the evidence," she said.
Before hearing final arguments, the judge rejected Carpenter's request to play Wafer's recorded statement to police. It was not introduced by prosecutors when they presented evidence Wednesday.
Hagaman-Clark, citing Michigan court rules, successfully argued that the defense could play the video only if Wafer would agree to testify and open himself up to cross-examination.
"The videotaped statement is not subject to cross-examination," the prosecutor said.

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Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 10:28:00 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

A dark figure is stomping out of the dark with what appears to be a club in his hand. The dark figure does not respond to calls to stop and identify themselves.

What do you do?

...Your choice!


My choice was:

Sane A> Flip a light switch from inside the house turning on three spotlights mounted outside the house under the eave thus illuminating the situation while I was safely hidden. Then make an informed choice about the situation on account of being able to actually see what the fuck was going on and put my gun away because I wasn't actually in any danger.

That's what I did.

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 2:31:45 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Light switch is by the door you turn it on, the you walk into the light.
If the are harmless you move out of the light.
If not you don't live that long.


It's really fucked up that you can't come up to any solution to this easily solvable problem besides killing unarmed old men.

Three warnings trump Monday morning quarterbacking.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 2:35:53 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You are being silly again.
Being spotlighted does not make you safer.
I have a motion sensor, it is a Doberman.
I have better night vision than most people so I am at an advantage without the light.
And he ignored three warnings to stop
What does it take to get the significance of that through to you.
It's not like he thought there was something out there opened the door and cut loose.
He warned the man to stop advancing on him three times, three times can't you understand that?

I live in the real world. Any number of reasons could exist why a person might not respond to a verbal warning besides being a physical threat.  Shooting him was not necessary. Simply turning on a light would have ended the entire situation. Besides being demented the person could have been deaf, or in some sort of distress and been unable to respond.

So in your mind he gets the first shot and, if you are able, you might then be justified in defending yourself.
I live in the real world he clearly doesn't care about your warnings and can be reasonably assumed
to be hostile.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 2:43:44 PM   
kdsub


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Steel you just have to realize as I did that some people, even when fair minded on most subjects, loose their reason and to some extent their humanity when it comes to guns... There is no use arguing with closed minds that refuse to find fault with the obviously outrageous behavior of this man.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/4/2014 2:44:32 PM >


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(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 3:22:14 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You are being silly again.
Being spotlighted does not make you safer.
I have a motion sensor, it is a Doberman.
I have better night vision than most people so I am at an advantage without the light.
And he ignored three warnings to stop
What does it take to get the significance of that through to you.
It's not like he thought there was something out there opened the door and cut loose.
He warned the man to stop advancing on him three times, three times can't you understand that?

I live in the real world. Any number of reasons could exist why a person might not respond to a verbal warning besides being a physical threat.  Shooting him was not necessary. Simply turning on a light would have ended the entire situation. Besides being demented the person could have been deaf, or in some sort of distress and been unable to respond.

So in your mind he gets the first shot and, if you are able, you might then be justified in defending yourself.
I live in the real world he clearly doesn't care about your warnings and can be reasonably assumed
to be hostile.

You need help. Please seek it before some one gets hurt.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 3:43:21 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel






Quite a fruit salad on that guy. I bet you don't even realize that you added real credibility to the question of just how dangerous this demented man, hiding in the shadows and refusing to identify himself when repeatedly challenged, could have been.



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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 5:07:48 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Steel you just have to realize as I did that some people, even when fair minded on most subjects, loose their reason and to some extent their humanity when it comes to guns... There is no use arguing with closed minds that refuse to find fault with the obviously outrageous behavior of this man.

Butch

Funny thing is, to me, this is not about guns, it is about the right to self defense.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 5:14:03 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
You need help. Please seek it before some one gets hurt.


Please tell me when you think self defense is acceptable.
If you have to make up every possible excuse for the other guy
you can't defend yourself until he proves beyond any doubt that
he intends to hurt you he has to get the first shot or if you prefer the term
the first strike.
Thus while you can't seem to follow this that is what you have always argued for.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 5:16:56 PM   
deathtothepixies


Posts: 683
Joined: 2/19/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Steel you just have to realize as I did that some people, even when fair minded on most subjects, loose their reason and to some extent their humanity when it comes to guns... There is no use arguing with closed minds that refuse to find fault with the obviously outrageous behavior of this man.

Butch

Funny thing is, to me, this is not about guns, it is about the right to self defense.


start a thread about self defence then, this one is called senseless shooting

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 5:18:07 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Steel you just have to realize as I did that some people, even when fair minded on most subjects, loose their reason and to some extent their humanity when it comes to guns... There is no use arguing with closed minds that refuse to find fault with the obviously outrageous behavior of this man.

Butch

Funny thing is, to me, this is not about guns, it is about the right to self defense.


start a thread about self defence then, this one is called senseless shooting

Self defense means it wasn't senseless
That doesn't make it about guns it makes it about the justification of this specific incident.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 3/4/2014 5:20:17 PM >


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to deathtothepixies)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 5:20:43 PM   
deathtothepixies


Posts: 683
Joined: 2/19/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


he intends to hurt you

there we have it, the assumption of gun owners. For too many gun owners this is the bottom line and the only line

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 5:27:46 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


he intends to hurt you

there we have it, the assumption of gun owners. For too many gun owners this is the bottom line and the only line

That is not based on being a gun owner, it is based on spending a lifetime around cops.
It would have been more honest to give my whole quote where in gave qualifications to the part you took out of context.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 3/4/2014 5:35:17 PM >


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to deathtothepixies)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 5:32:10 PM   
deathtothepixies


Posts: 683
Joined: 2/19/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


he intends to hurt you

there we have it, the assumption of gun owners. For too many gun owners this is the bottom line and the only line

That is not based on being a gun owner, it is based on spending a lifetime around cops.

cops spend their lives dealing with criminals, most people aren't criminals. Do you even consider that your view of people might be biased by that? We're not all trying to kill you ffs

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 5:35:15 PM   
deathtothepixies


Posts: 683
Joined: 2/19/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


he intends to hurt you

there we have it, the assumption of gun owners. For too many gun owners this is the bottom line and the only line

That is not based on being a gun owner, it is based on spending a lifetime around cops.

cops spend their lives dealing with criminals, most people aren't criminals. Do you even consider that your view of people might be biased by that? We're not all trying to kill you ffs
ps. all three of your tag lines or whatever they are called are utter garbage and only help prove how one eyed you are about the world

(in reply to deathtothepixies)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 5:38:25 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


he intends to hurt you

there we have it, the assumption of gun owners. For too many gun owners this is the bottom line and the only line

That is not based on being a gun owner, it is based on spending a lifetime around cops.

cops spend their lives dealing with criminals, most people aren't criminals. Do you even consider that your view of people might be biased by that? We're not all trying to kill you ffs

Never said everyone was, just that certain specific actions lead a reasonable person to that conclusion.
It taught me to be as sure as possible before resorting to violence.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to deathtothepixies)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 5:38:55 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Joined: 8/27/2008
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I'm still waiting for a certain person to show that the homeowner had the superpower of being able to tell that the person banging on his door and ignoring spoken demands was actually an older man with a mental condition.

SIXTH REQUEST BOY

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 5:41:31 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
ps. all three of your tag lines or whatever they are called are utter garbage and only help prove how one eyed you are about the world

Is it Aristotle, Thomas Jefferson, or the Supreme Court that you dismiss as garbage.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to deathtothepixies)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 5:42:52 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline
FR
How nice that all the pro-gun people feel that shooting down someone simply because you thought they might be dangerous is okay. Most white males in this country vote Republican; they are definitely dangerous to my well-being; I guess I should just start taking them out. What am I waiting for. Seriously, this is what some of your arguments sound like. Hope all of you pro-gun types will be happy defending me when I shoot the next Republican I meet. What a sad state of affairs…..

< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 3/4/2014 5:43:20 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 6:04:21 PM   
PeonForHer


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Joined: 9/27/2008
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FR

What about a situation in which neither homeowner nor suspected intruder was remotely likely to have had a gun, say, because it was illegal for either party to have one?

Forget it. I'll get my coat . . . .

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Profile   Post #: 160
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