RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (Full Version)

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pg4g -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/6/2014 8:24:50 PM)

I have a military word - "Safeguard" - we are never allowed to use it for drills. Must be for emergencies. But if there's an emergency, I will instinctively call that word. So hey, it works for me.



shadowborn61 -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/6/2014 8:27:22 PM)

Obviously there are those who have no use for safe words but it all depends on the level of communication you have between the Dominant and the submissive. Personally i think some here are too dismissive of them but that's just my opinion.
Unless you know someone to the point that you can without fail read their body language or without fail know if the "no" or "stop" is real or playful then a safe word whatever it is is needed.
It doesn't matter what the word is as long as both parties know what it is and what it means.



nyx84 -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/6/2014 11:21:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I just think I would be too tongue tied and hazy in the head to remember a safeword when playing. I'd be dead by the time I could remember what it was lol...."eerrr...uuummm...fuck...I'm in pain...I'm having a heart attack! What the fuck is that word???? Fuck! No, that's not it!". [8D]


I'm the oppisit hear when I get tongue tied and hazy its harder for me to articulate myself and explain whats wrong. In that instance I can use my safe word and then try to figure out the words I need to say whats wrong.



AlexisANew -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/7/2014 4:01:27 AM)

I agree with nyx84 but so long as people keep that safeword simple. If you start to fall unconscious you will be able to say 'RED' before you black out.



LadyConstanze -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/7/2014 5:15:02 AM)

While I think safewords are wise, I think they can also lead the top to be careless, relying on the sub to safeword, if you're playing with a masochist, they might fly so high that they don't want to safeword, that at that particular moment the last thing on their mind is to stop the endorphine flow, so I wouldn't put all my trust in the bottom safewording...



shadowborn61 -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/7/2014 5:22:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

While I think safewords are wise, I think they can also lead the top to be careless, relying on the sub to safeword, if you're playing with a masochist, they might fly so high that they don't want to safeword, that at that particular moment the last thing on their mind is to stop the endorphine flow, so I wouldn't put all my trust in the bottom safewording...


This is why as a part of negotiation i ask that the Top/Dominant ask from time to time so i can give them a "green" to let them know i am still there.
It doesn't have to be often and that way the Top/Dominant can be sure i am still eager for whatever is next.



AlexisANew -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/7/2014 8:36:39 AM)

I agree about checking in and making sure everything is okay. Getting a sub into subspace and then continuing down the sadistic path is unwise imo. In my book, sadism and masochism is all good, so long as we are both communicating. Saying that, some subs will say 'yes' when they actually mean 'no' and this is where responsibility gets tricky. I was in such a situation with a sub some years ago. The play was actually fairly mild but she was a sensitive soul and so I kept checking in, making sure she was happy to continue. She gave me all the right signals, the satisfied smiles and the right body language but when the scene was over, curled into ball and cried her heart out. I know this sometimes happens and that's when good after-care comes in. I was floored when she turned to me and said, 'you completely overstepped the mark. You pushed me too far. When I asked her why she had given me all the right signals each time I'd communicated with her, she simply said, 'I'm too submissive to say otherwise'.

Sometimes you do all the right things and still get it wrong. That particular incident sent me into serious Domme drop and made me very nervous about scening with anyone for a while and since that time I have never scened with anyone who refuses to take an ounce of responsibility.




FieryOpal -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/7/2014 10:59:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: shadowborn61

Obviously there are those who have no use for safe words but it all depends on the level of communication you have between the Dominant and the submissive. Personally i think some here are too dismissive of them but that's just my opinion.
Unless you know someone to the point that you can without fail read their body language or without fail know if the "no" or "stop" is real or playful then a safe word whatever it is is needed.
It doesn't matter what the word is as long as both parties know what it is and what it means.

Also what you mentioned earlier about using "Green," which I use as giving the green light as in "go," and proceed onwards.

littlewonder, there are times when subs/bottoms can't verbalize (or vocalize, in which case they should use a safety signal), and get out a full sentence, or don't want to interrupt the mood. Your cognitive abilities must be awesome, but not everybody's are.

AlexisANew referred to "Red," which is so easy to remember (or so I've gleaned), and that's what I have my sub use. In theory, because I've never had to get past a "Yellow," as in "Ouch, these nipple clamps/clothespins are too freaking tight," although an Ouch usually does mean Ouch, but not always to stop what I'm doing.
Plus, it's a lot simpler for him to say "Green" than "You can turn up the speed on the vibrator now."



Kana -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/7/2014 1:12:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nyx84


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I just think I would be too tongue tied and hazy in the head to remember a safeword when playing. I'd be dead by the time I could remember what it was lol...."eerrr...uuummm...fuck...I'm in pain...I'm having a heart attack! What the fuck is that word???? Fuck! No, that's not it!". [8D]


I'm the oppisit hear when I get tongue tied and hazy its harder for me to articulate myself and explain whats wrong. In that instance I can use my safe word and then try to figure out the words I need to say whats wrong.

Heck-Mouse forgets to breathe!
A safe word is out of the question.

Just to be clear about something-we don't stop play because it hurts (WTF? I'm a sadist-that's the whole point of play)-we stop because of genuine safety/health issues.
She'd be in a world of shit if she started crying, "Wolf."

As for emotional states,yep, we've stopped because of that.We've also downshifted or altered the tone of the play. Sometimes it's within a larger play-I'll notice she's having trouble handling something, work with her,soothe her, lots of touches, some breathing exercise and then move back into harder play again.
(In fact,I kinda like that.Bring her up and down again and again until she's riding a freaking roller coaster and lost in emotion)
Other times I've either slowly brought things to a halt or switched gears,move from straight up hard play into something softer.
A good Dom should live by the Marine credo-Improvise, adapt, overcome :-)



shiftyw -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/7/2014 1:38:29 PM)

Thanks for your perspective Kana and LW.

I have so rarely safeworded out of pain.
With PTSD its almost always emotional...but we dont often stop outright but shift or change activities...he has been with me for 4 years now and I rarely safeword because he can usually read me or if he is in doubt he will check in with me...I dont Think it breaks the mood.. I think its loving.



FieryOpal -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/7/2014 2:36:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
<snip>
A good Dom should live by the Marine credo-Improvise, adapt, overcome :-)

Ya know, sometimes I think there are Dominants who expect their s-types to do more than their fair share of the improvising, adapting and overcoming, and that these aren't advantageous or quality traits for Dominants - heck, everybody - to learn as important life skills. Who was it who said Adapt or Perish?

Btw littlewonder, I was giving you a compliment in case you may not have known that for sure, given that I assumed you have experienced subspace on a regular basis. [;)]



Kana -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/7/2014 3:59:17 PM)

quote:

I rarely safeword because he can usually read me or if he is in doubt he will check in with me

This is us.
We've been together a long time.Sometimes we see the other better than we see ourselves.
I'm pretty good at reading her-her moods, her headspace, her body language and unspoken signals.
That said, yeah, I've misread her once or twice and totally screwed the pooch.
On the rare instance that happens, I apologize, do what I can to make things right, and we move on.
Together.



lilcracker -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/7/2014 5:49:00 PM)

Well written...however...I have never safe-worded with my partner. I do tell him if something is not right but most of the time I never have to because we started out slowly and through constant communication (not just during a scene) but just in normal conversation we have discussed things. He knows me very well and can tell by my body movements...my reactions and my tone of voice whether I am enjoying it...(green) getting a bit antsy (yellow) or I need it to stop (red).


I am not totally a fan of safe-words. One because a safe-word is not a shield...like some people think....it's only going to work if the Top is going to follow through and allow the use of the safe word and it doesn't matter if (s)he agreed to it prior (s)he still holds the power...especially if one is bound and unable to escape...and yeah that did happen to me once. I screamed the safe word until I was hoarse. The response...it was a punishment so safe words were not allowed. Really? And that brings us to another problem with safe words.

Are punishments allowed to be used with a safe word? If so what about the submissive who safe words just to stop the punishment? Or the submissive who over uses the safe word? It sort of goes both ways here. Then we wind up with topics like this.


I would rather have a partner who knows the difference between....please stop (I have had enough it really hurts) and please stop ( I am loving this and want you to keep going) just by the tone of my voice....then to play a kinky game of red light green light.



LeatherBentOne51 -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/7/2014 5:52:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

While I think safewords are wise, I think they can also lead the top to be careless, relying on the sub to safeword, if you're playing with a masochist, they might fly so high that they don't want to safeword, that at that particular moment the last thing on their mind is to stop the endorphine flow, so I wouldn't put all my trust in the bottom safewording...



I definitely agree. I subbed for 5yrs in real, and the Domme I played with stopped a scene because she thought I had reached that point. It was an outdoor scene with knifeplay and when she got to the cane, she realized I was far too gone on the endorphins by then.



DesFIP -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/7/2014 6:19:52 PM)

My problem with safewords is that limits what we're going to do so that I can be sure I'm able to safeword if necessary.

So no subspace because I go nonverbal in subspace.

It also means nothing new because when we do new stuff, I occasionally hit a trigger and shut down.

If there's a problem and I can express it, I will. However, I also need to know that he's watching out for me. That he's not putting all the burden for this going well on me and that if there's a problem, I'm not going to be blamed for not safewording.

I need to know that he will check my skin color/temp when tied and undo me even when I'm begging to stay tied. Because it wasn't until ten minutes later when my hand started pins and needles that I understood why he had untied me.

And I need to know that I can trust him to notice if I'm cringing and rigid which means there's an emotional problem.

Having two of us involved means we're both invested in things going well. I think that's better than it all being one person's responsibility.



shadowborn61 -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/7/2014 8:19:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lilcracker

I am not totally a fan of safe-words. One because a safe-word is not a shield...like some people think....it's only going to work if the Top is going to follow through and allow the use of the safe word and it doesn't matter if (s)he agreed to it prior (s)he still holds the power...especially if one is bound and unable to escape...and yeah that did happen to me once. I screamed the safe word until I was hoarse. The response...it was a punishment so safe words were not allowed. Really? And that brings us to another problem with safe words.

Are punishments allowed to be used with a safe word? If so what about the submissive who safe words just to stop the punishment? Or the submissive who over uses the safe word? It sort of goes both ways here. Then we wind up with topics like this.

Ok so you negotiated the scene and both agreed one the safe word right? Then you use the safe word and the dominant punished you for using it when they had agreed to having one?
That asshole should be in jail for assault PERIOD.
Not only did they violate your consent but then then assaulted you for trying to stop something you did not want to happen. Please please tell me this was not someone you thought you knew well.
A safe word is most definitely not supposed to be a shield because you should never need a shield to be safe, It is meant to be a form of communication and if ignored then that is a very serious matter and the one who violated you should have been arrested.
It to me is the same thing as a woman saying no to sex and the man just takes her anyway that is rape no matter how you look at it and not the fault of the victim.
There is absolutely no excuse for intentionally violating anyone's consent.



kalikshama -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/7/2014 8:27:23 PM)

quote:

I screamed the safe word until I was hoarse. The response...it was a punishment so safe words were not allowed. Really? And that brings us to another problem with safe words.

Are punishments allowed to be used with a safe word? If so what about the submissive who safe words just to stop the punishment? Or the submissive who over uses the safe word?


If the Dom feels the sub is overusing the safe word, he can chose to not scene with her anymore. What he cannot do is continue the scene, because she has withdrawn consent.

I'm sorry that happened to you.



Kana -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/7/2014 10:19:04 PM)

quote:

Are punishments allowed to be used with a safe word?

Nope.No safe wording during consequences. But I also run them so there are no safety issues that could lead to a safe word.
quote:

If so what about the submissive who safe words just to stop the punishment?

Wouldn't listen. See above. Also see my comments re why I allow the use of safewords-i.e. for safety,not pain.
quote:

Or the submissive who over uses the safe word?

I'd say that she was using it for selfish, self centered reasons and, as such, that doing so is an act of dishonesty.
It would erode the trust, just like the little boy that cries "wolf."
If overdone, it would probably end the relationship.
At some point,overuse becomes her attempting to dictate the scene to me and that crap don't fly.

I'll also note that I've never hit this issue. Maybe it's who I choose to play with but the gals I've interacted with tend to err on the other side-they want to impress, they want to "make Master happy" so if anything they call it less often than they should,especially at the beginning.
Hence, I communicate a lot, especially when we are new or reasonably new to each other and I'm still trying to learn her reactions/tells



GoddessManko -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/7/2014 11:52:50 PM)

That was just incredible! Thank you for sharing. It was shocking for me seeing a Domme be vulnerable and emotional and so expressive to a sub in the most beautiful way. I'll probably read it a few times more. I actually logged into my old Fet account to check it out and the author (curiosity got the better of me). Almost makes me regret not using safe words but then never really needed them. Thankfully most subs (if not all) had toys of their own that told me of their previous experience and where to push the envelope. That would be my advice to any Dom: familiarize self with sub's toy and respect limits for cripes sakes man...don't let good subs go rogue!



FieryOpal -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/8/2014 12:24:44 AM)

Glad I went back to check on what GoddessManko was referring to, since I'm not on FL, nor do I plan to sign up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

For those not on Fet, or who do not like to click on links, etc:

Thank You for Saying Red!

(Sorry for this being disjointed as hell. I was just trying to spit this out quickly, and hope to revise it later.) Also, TW for brief mentions of rape and consent violations.

This is to the subs, slaves, bottoms, switches, masochists, and other people that want someone to “do stuff to you”.

Thank you for saying red. Thank you for saying yellow. Thank you for saying “I changed my mind.” Thank you for reminding me that my hand was drifting awfully close to the area we agreed was off-limits.

I’m sorry that someone made you feel that your worth as a person was based in how much of a beating you can take.

I’m sorry that someone told you that you were being a “bad sub” or “topping from the bottom” when you told them there was a problem.

I’m sorry that someone tried to convince you that nobody would play with someone who had “so many stupid rules”.

Thank you for being strong.

I’m a sadist. I want to hurt you, and I’m going to have fun doing it. I want to do all the horrible things you've got locked away in that "secret" folder of bookmarks. And I'll giggle while I do it.

But only with your consent.

It’s one of my biggest nightmares to accidentally cross that line. I’ve been raped and even the worst time still didn’t feel as bad as the time a partner told me “Yeah…I didn’t actually like that, but I felt like I shouldn’t say no. I didn’t want you to get mad.” I was devastated. I cried. I hated myself. Recovery has taken a long time, but I’m still scared.

I’m not the only one. Lots of tops I’ve spoken to want to know “If a yes isn’t enough to be absolutely sure about consent, how are we supposed to know?” We don’t want to abuse you; we want to have fun, and we want YOU to enjoy yourself.

I’ve said it a lot: If I don’t know you can say No, then your yes doesn’t mean anything to me.

So when I hear you say Red, Yellow, “That’s not what we agreed to”, or even “This isn’t working for me”, YOU are the one I want to play with. Not the “super-bottom” on the stage telling everyone how much they can take. Definitely not the person I just met who keeps telling I can “do whatever I want” to them because they “trust me so much already”.
You: the one who asks “I kind of want to try needles, but I’ve never done it, so could we just try one, and then see if I want more instead of jumping straight to a whole scene?”
You: the one who calls Red, Yellow, or uses Stop and No for their actual meanings, and isn’t ashamed of it.
You: the one who mentions that your hand is going a little numb so I can adjust the restraints. That mentions I got a little close to your spine.
You: the one who wants to negotiate things we WANT to do, not just have a list of hard limits, and trust in my psychic powers to pace the scene.
You: the one who asks me how much experience I’ve got, and asks to see my safety equipment before the scene starts.
You: the one who asks to watch me play with someone else first.
You: the one who thinks to throw a “green” in from time to time so I know you’re still enjoying yourself.
You: the one who says that certain types of play are reserved for once we know each other better.
You: the one who wants a friend/partner along to watch. And who wants to play in public.

Why? Because I can trust you with my biggest fear, and know you’ll honor that. We can negotiate everything in detail, and play there. Or we can play around in a much larger category, and I know it’s going to be okay.

You are the ones that let me go to extremes, and try new and amazing and intense things. And I’m safe.

I can't thank you enough for being you.

In a closely bonded relationship, or once two partners have become attuned to one another, it's not uncommon for safewording to get bypassed. While married, we had discussed it briefly but there wasn't any need with us to implement this since there was always constant feedback going on. We were only taking baby steps then. It's only with a couple subs I had afterwards that I put this system in place, mainly as a matter of protocol. I felt I had a responsibility in the beginning stages to give my sub any and every tool at his disposal to engender trust between us, and I prefer to err on the side of caution. There are times when someone at first might not be be fully forthcoming about health issues or what their triggers are, and they may not be fully aware of these themselves.



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