RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing.

RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (Full Version)

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pg4g -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/8/2014 12:32:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana Just to be clear about something-we don't stop play because it hurts (WTF? I'm a sadist-that's the whole point of play)-we stop because of genuine safety/health issues. I definitely understand this view. I just have a question: what if they just couldn't handle the pain dished out, and this person didn't want to play ever again because you pushed too far? Personally, I don't have this issue. My pain limits are so astronomical I've never hit them. That, and I have a rule: never blame him for the pain you endure - it's what you asked for at the start of the relationship. So I wouldn't leave even if it was too much. I'd just tell him after the fact. But this is one point where I would be concerned when I'm in control and hurting someone. Is this a matter of reading your sub, asking questions, knowing how much they can take? Or is it just not really a concern for you, and she can leave if she doesn't like it? No judgements, just asking. [Edited for clarity]

UllrsIshtar -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/8/2014 2:01:24 AM)
~FR~ For casual play I completely agree with the linked post. It's a great way for casual play to be loads of fun, without creating too much risk for either party because they don't know each other very well. For the play I like most with people I know well it wouldn't work for me though. Safe words don't work for me at all in that style of play, as I like to push my boundaries to the point where -in the moment- I withdraw consent, and have the Top ignore me and continue anyways. I love getting to a play where I'm so completely fucked up out of my mind scared and in pain that I will say and do ANYTHING -including safe wording if one is available- to attempt to make him stop. Hell, I've even tried stuff like yelling 'safe word' before when we absolutely agreed there wouldn't be any. The thing is, if he actually does stop in that moment, I'll be disappointed 2 minutes later. I'm not as stoic as lw, and on top of that, I'm a big wimp. I can't take much pain without getting to the point where I start squirming around to try and get away, and no much further than that, I'll be yelling, begging, pleading off the top of my longs for him to stop. Safe words don't work for me, because the make the type of play I like to do impossible. Now of course, this puts him at a tremendous amount of risk... he better be fucking sure that when he ignores me withdrawing consent, I WILL actually still enjoy him continuing, and if I don't, have the honor to realize that him misinterpreting the situation is more my fault than him, so that I won't press charges. I keep telling him he's out of his mind to take those kinds of risks, but hey, he seems to be enjoying himself. [:D]

pg4g -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/8/2014 2:51:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar ~FR~ For casual play I completely agree with the linked post. It's a great way for casual play to be loads of fun, without creating too much risk for either party because they don't know each other very well. For the play I like most with people I know well it wouldn't work for me though. Safe words don't work for me at all in that style of play, as I like to push my boundaries to the point where -in the moment- I withdraw consent, and have the Top ignore me and continue anyways. I love getting to a play where I'm so completely fucked up out of my mind scared and in pain that I will say and do ANYTHING -including safe wording if one is available- to attempt to make him stop. Hell, I've even tried stuff like yelling 'safe word' before when we absolutely agreed there wouldn't be any. The thing is, if he actually does stop in that moment, I'll be disappointed 2 minutes later. I'm not as stoic as lw, and on top of that, I'm a big wimp. I can't take much pain without getting to the point where I start squirming around to try and get away, and no much further than that, I'll be yelling, begging, pleading off the top of my longs for him to stop. Safe words don't work for me, because the make the type of play I like to do impossible. Now of course, this puts him at a tremendous amount of risk... he better be fucking sure that when he ignores me withdrawing consent, I WILL actually still enjoy him continuing, and if I don't, have the honor to realize that him misinterpreting the situation is more my fault than him, so that I won't press charges. I keep telling him he's out of his mind to take those kinds of risks, but hey, he seems to be enjoying himself. [:D] Could not have said it better. Completely agree 100%.

LadyConstanze -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/8/2014 3:56:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: I screamed the safe word until I was hoarse. The response...it was a punishment so safe words were not allowed. Really? And that brings us to another problem with safe words. Are punishments allowed to be used with a safe word? If so what about the submissive who safe words just to stop the punishment? Or the submissive who over uses the safe word? If the Dom feels the sub is overusing the safe word, he can chose to not scene with her anymore. What he cannot do is continue the scene, because she has withdrawn consent. I'm sorry that happened to you. That's simply nuts, yes if somebody would always use the safeword because I'm not acting like a service top, then that would be the end of play. A polite "Thank you very much, see that rectangular thing there? We call that a door, please use it for the purpose it was intended..." But ignoring a safeword is just not an option... To be honest, my main concern when I play is simply that the masochistic bottom flies to high on endorphines and might not call out the safeword because things feel too good and he or she doesn't want to stop, so I don't want to rely on just the safeword but also make sure to read the body language and make sure there are no lasting injuries. Compare it to the spoil sport at parties who will tell somebody that they can't have another drink, because else they end in the hospital with alcohol poisoning... Doesn't always make you popular but I believe it's the responsible thing to handle things.

AlexisANew -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/8/2014 6:22:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana She'd be in a world of shit if she started crying, "Wolf." This is very, very pertinent for what I'm about to say. We never had a safeword because we don't dominate each other but one of the things we used to do was consensually fight. Sometimes, when I needed a breather, I would fain a faint. Crying wolf very nearly ended my life. quote: lilcracker Well written...however...I have never safe-worded with my partner. I do tell him if something is not right but most of the time I never have to because we started out slowly and through constant communication (not just during a scene) but just in normal conversation we have discussed things. He knows me very well and can tell by my body movements...my reactions and my tone of voice whether I am enjoying it...(green) getting a bit antsy (yellow) or I need it to stop (red). It very much depends on how rough you play. On the night of our incident which stopped us from ever play fighting again, I had my back to him, the moment was incredibly heated, adrenalin was at an all time high. quote: I am not totally a fan of safe-words. One because a safe-word is not a shield...like some people think....it's only going to work if the Top is going to follow through and allow the use of the safe word and it doesn't matter if (s)he agreed to it prior (s)he still holds the power...especially if one is bound and unable to escape...and yeah that did happen to me once. I screamed the safe word until I was hoarse. The response...it was a punishment so safe words were not allowed. Really? And that brings us to another problem with safe words. Like I said, we never had a safeword. If I'd had enough of fighting I'd just tell him and the same for him but that night I didn't have time to tell him I wanted to stop or that I was in trouble and oh boy was I in trouble. Before passing out and keep in mind, all he could see was the back of my head and I had very stupidly 'cried wolf' half a dozen times before and he was getting wise to it, all I uttered was the word, 'Red'. He knew in a nano second that something had gone wrong and immediately let go of the grip around my neck. My brain went into seizure and there was a serious risk of me having a heart attack. Fortunately for me he knew exactly what to do and the emergency services were with us in 4 minutes. I needed mechanical assistance to get me out of something that was going very wrong. I often wonder what would of happened if he'd held on that bit longer. What if I hadn't managed to say that one little word? What we both learnt about that night is, safewords work, so long as, like Kana says; they aren't over used.

Kana -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/8/2014 7:13:25 AM)
quote: I'm not as stoic as lw Who says LW is stoic? Beeeeooootttch cries,whines,begs, grovels, thrashes all over the place twisting to avoid the blows, funk, she is anything but stoic. Emotional Chernobyl would be closer to the truth. heeheehee quote: on top of that, I'm a big wimp Thats my gal quote: I can't take much pain without getting to the point where I start squirming around to try and get away, and no much further than that, I'll be yelling, begging, pleading off the top of my longs for him to stop. Yep quote: I definitely understand this view. I just have a question: what if they just couldn't handle the pain dished out, and this person didn't want to play ever again because you pushed too far? We talk it out and hash it through. It's happened once or twice. Not lots of fun. Lots of tears on her part.Emotional catharsis on mine. It pretty much sucks. But, and this is mission critical, we get through it, together. quote: Is this a matter of reading your sub, asking questions, knowing how much they can take? Or is it just not really a concern for you, and she can leave if she doesn't like it? Sometimes it's the former,occasionally the latter. All depends on my mood at the moments. Sometimes she's an It.Sometime a piece of meat that screams and has nice orifices. Other times she's a person who I care immensely about. Look,we're both human. We make mistakes., Sometimes these are big and sometimes small. When we fuck up, we do what's required to set things straight and then get back to, as Matthew McConaughey says, L.I.V.I.N. The critical fact is that our commitment to each other, to us, that holds true no matter what. No one is going anywhere. That trust, that bond, it's foundational shit.

shadowborn61 -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/8/2014 8:30:23 AM)
Ok after reading the posts that follow my last i think that if you are in a D/s relationship with a punishment dynamic then using a safeword to get out of a punishment would be wrong and if it continued then the Dominant should take a hard look at the relationship to see if they even want it to continue. The few couples that i know in a D/s relationship that do have a punishment dynamic (i don't know many locals yet) do not allow for a safeword during punishment but they have been together for some time and know and trust each other. However i do believe that a safeword is essential in the beginning of a relationship or for casual play. In the beginning the D and s need to build the communication as well as learn about each other and it can always be done away with at a later time when both are comfortable to do so. I feel that casual play without a safeword is foolish but then anytime you play casually you are taking a chance with someone who you may not know very well and who may not honor a safeword it is a chance you take. Maybe i am looking at this through the lens of little real experience but that's how i see it.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/8/2014 9:10:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana quote: I'm not as stoic as lw Who says LW is stoic? Beeeeooootttch cries,whines,begs, grovels, thrashes all over the place twisting to avoid the blows, funk, she is anything but stoic. Emotional Chernobyl would be closer to the truth. heeheehee You say she's stoic. [8D] You said that you only allow safewords for safety, not pain, and that you wouldn't accept a gall misusing a safeword and crying 'wolf'. That implies she's in control of herself, her head, and her emotions enough to obey that decree, which considering that it happens during torture, I'd absolutely call stoic. Hell, I'd evoke your boss himself from the pits of hell to make a deal for your, mine and my grandmother's soul if I knew it'd get your to stop. Me not crying 'wolf' if I know it's a guaranteed out ain't going to happen, I don't have that amount of self-control left in the moment... well not if you're doing it right that is. [:D]

LadyConstanze -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/8/2014 9:24:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shadowborn61 Ok after reading the posts that follow my last i think that if you are in a D/s relationship with a punishment dynamic then using a safeword to get out of a punishment would be wrong and if it continued then the Dominant should take a hard look at the relationship to see if they even want it to continue. The few couples that i know in a D/s relationship that do have a punishment dynamic (i don't know many locals yet) do not allow for a safeword during punishment but they have been together for some time and know and trust each other. However i do believe that a safeword is essential in the beginning of a relationship or for casual play. In the beginning the D and s need to build the communication as well as learn about each other and it can always be done away with at a later time when both are comfortable to do so. I feel that casual play without a safeword is foolish but then anytime you play casually you are taking a chance with someone who you may not know very well and who may not honor a safeword it is a chance you take. Maybe i am looking at this through the lens of little real experience but that's how i see it. Not really, if you are a sadist and you're in a BDSM relationship, you don't punish, this is our idea of a fun time, you especially don't punish a masochist with pain, that's like punishing a child with a trip to the sweet shop or the zoo...

UllrsIshtar -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/8/2014 9:26:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pg4g what if they just couldn't handle the pain dished out, and this person didn't want to play ever again because you pushed too far? But this is one point where I would be concerned when I'm in control and hurting someone. Is this a matter of reading your sub, asking questions, knowing how much they can take? Or is it just not really a concern for you, and she can leave if she doesn't like it? No judgements, just asking. It's the point my husband still worries about all the time. We've had it happen a couple of times that he pushed it too far, including an unintentional injury at one point (small tear in a shoulder muscle). If and when that happens, I accept that it was my responsibility to put him in a position where he didn't know he was taking it too far. Just like if I engaged in mixed martial arts fight I wouldn't blame my opponent for my injuries, or for going passed my limits. It was me who made the choice to put me in that situation the moment I stepped into the ring, or tell somebody I want to play with no limits. Unlike with most BDSMers, I consider my safety during play, especially extreme kind of play, fully my own responsibility, with the Top virtually having no responsibility. The way I manage my safety is by floods of information exchange prior to play, and by hopefully making the right judgement calls about which dude to play with. In the end though, if something goes wrong, and he misreads the situation, I consider it my fault for putting him in a situation where he couldn't accurately read it, or for picking the wrong man.

shadowborn61 -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/8/2014 2:00:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze quote: ORIGINAL: shadowborn61 Ok after reading the posts that follow my last i think that if you are in a D/s relationship with a punishment dynamic then using a safeword to get out of a punishment would be wrong and if it continued then the Dominant should take a hard look at the relationship to see if they even want it to continue. The few couples that i know in a D/s relationship that do have a punishment dynamic (i don't know many locals yet) do not allow for a safeword during punishment but they have been together for some time and know and trust each other. However i do believe that a safeword is essential in the beginning of a relationship or for casual play. In the beginning the D and s need to build the communication as well as learn about each other and it can always be done away with at a later time when both are comfortable to do so. I feel that casual play without a safeword is foolish but then anytime you play casually you are taking a chance with someone who you may not know very well and who may not honor a safeword it is a chance you take. Maybe i am looking at this through the lens of little real experience but that's how i see it. Not really, if you are a sadist and you're in a BDSM relationship, you don't punish, this is our idea of a fun time, you especially don't punish a masochist with pain, that's like punishing a child with a trip to the sweet shop or the zoo... I understand that quite well since i am a masochist and as i have said before with a proper warm up i can be quite the pain slut. But then on the other hand i have limited experience. The one Domme i have served found out that spanking me was not a punishment at all no matter what She used and She was very creative (though the hairbrush did take some getting used to).

LadyConstanze -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/8/2014 3:02:19 PM)
I met a few people who do play hard, and some I had to actually take down a notch or two, don't get me wrong, I love if somebody can take it, but I just couldn't live with myself knowing I caused lasting damage... Now if you can take a lot, get some versions of deep heat (my fave is Finalgon, the extra strong) have it applied to you (protect the family jewels) then she makes you sweat and she wears gloves for spanking (she doesn't want to sting her hands), it just might be a punishment but no lasting damage ;) I cured a "leather butt" with that stuff

DesFIP -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/8/2014 9:49:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shadowborn61 Ok after reading the posts that follow my last i think that if you are in a D/s relationship with a punishment dynamic then using a safeword to get out of a punishment would be wrong and if it continued then the Dominant should take a hard look at the relationship to see if they even want it to continue. Really? So if a sub has an asthma attack during punishment, then she deserves to die? And a dominant should be allowed to violate a hard limit because it's a punishment? From my pov, if a sub has to safeword during a punishment and it isn't something unexpected like an asthma attack, that would indicate the dominant was not trustworthy and and the sub should take a good, hard look at the relationship and see if she even wanted it to continue. Because unless you're trying to force someone to safeword, in order to know that they will do so if necessary, it says something uncomplimentary about a top who is so unobservant that he doesn't realize his partner is in trouble.

Nakhla -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/8/2014 10:09:04 PM)
I have used a safeword in the past, but the most useful safeword I had was one for relationship problems: if we felt we were headed for trouble or resentment, we'd time out for that. For play I've never needed it, I've usually just specified the issue e.g. "my feet are going numb; tingly". Safewording to the extent of the specified post sounds like a headache. And not using a safeword in time giving the dom a feeling equivalent to being raped? Frightening. Part of this for me is letting someone else make the decisions. In fact, that's most of it. Trusting their judgment and letting them have their fun with me. If I feel I'm in trouble, I'll let them know, but if I'm merely uncomfortable then that isn't a big deal, as I get most of my pleasure from their pleasure from theirs. I'm reminded again why I'm an awful match with service tops.

littlewonder -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/8/2014 10:24:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AlexisANew I agree with nyx84 but so long as people keep that safeword simple. If you start to fall unconscious you will be able to say 'RED' before you black out. Imo if someone can't see you are on the verge of blacking out, they shouldn't be playing. It's a simple thing to see really.

shadowborn61 -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/8/2014 10:39:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP quote: ORIGINAL: shadowborn61 Ok after reading the posts that follow my last i think that if you are in a D/s relationship with a punishment dynamic then using a safeword to get out of a punishment would be wrong and if it continued then the Dominant should take a hard look at the relationship to see if they even want it to continue. Really? So if a sub has an asthma attack during punishment, then she deserves to die? And a dominant should be allowed to violate a hard limit because it's a punishment? From my pov, if a sub has to safeword during a punishment and it isn't something unexpected like an asthma attack, that would indicate the dominant was not trustworthy and and the sub should take a good, hard look at the relationship and see if she even wanted it to continue. Because unless you're trying to force someone to safeword, in order to know that they will do so if necessary, it says something uncomplimentary about a top who is so unobservant that he doesn't realize his partner is in trouble. Of course if they need to use a safeword for something like that it is understandable. What i meant (and thought most here would understand) would be using the safeword for the sole purpose of avoiding punishment DUH! So what you are saying then if a sub uses a safeword when they have done something to deserve punishment just to avoid said punishment and they are not in any physical/mental danger that makes the Dominant untrustworthy? Please explain that one to me because i just don't get that at all.

pg4g -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/9/2014 1:32:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder quote: ORIGINAL: AlexisANew I agree with nyx84 but so long as people keep that safeword simple. If you start to fall unconscious you will be able to say 'RED' before you black out. Imo if someone can't see you are on the verge of blacking out, they shouldn't be playing. It's a simple thing to see really. Yep, agreed.

AlexisANew -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/9/2014 3:42:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder quote: ORIGINAL: AlexisANew I agree with nyx84 but so long as people keep that safeword simple. If you start to fall unconscious you will be able to say 'RED' before you black out. Imo if someone can't see you are on the verge of blacking out, they shouldn't be playing. It's a simple thing to see really. I think thats a bit harsh. Sometimes blacking out happens so quickly that even if you are facing them full on, you won't see any warning. It depends on the cause of the blackout. I once put a suture in a girl and she passed out. She'd had many needles and full piercings and I'd done them all. She wanted to try a suture and obviously I was concentrating on exactly that because you can't be looking at someone's face when you suture. Pierces and tattooists get fainters all the time. But anyway, I didn't write what I wrote lightly. I wasn't really trying to make a point other than my own experience. What we did would be frowned upon by a lot of people because our play is probably more fucked up than most. Actually its not an 'is' its a 'was' because since that day we haven't played since and that was years ago.

AAkasha -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/9/2014 3:11:37 PM)
When "safewords" replace good, old-fashioned CLEAR communication there is a problem. A bunch of codes - really? All it does is create drama and a perception of "this is a big deal I am using this special code word to communicate to someone and now I feel weird and uneasy" for some people. Safewords in a lot of cases are like "the cool kids' secret code" and you are in the club when you can use super special words in an circumstance where you should be able to instead articulate much more effectively, "I am feeling a little uneasy - can we stop and talk for a second?" The original purpose of a safeword was so that when a sub/bottom was saying "no! stop!" it was to say "I am not faking it; this isn't play, I am really in distress." You know - roleplaying. Someone pretending to be abducted or raped or who is possibly resisting during the entire thing. Meanwhile a lot of people into S&M now say "Oh, I don't roleplay what I do is real" and almost insinuate that playing a "role" is also for newbies or novices. I have no issue with couples that effectively use whatever codes work for them. Hell, go ahead and use morse code or make up your own entire language so long as you both like and use it. But I think for others, the use of "code word" or "safewords" just adds an element of "this is kind of big deal to interrupt my flow and ask permission to convey your fears and emotions" in a situation where no one is resisting, no one is roleplaying, and a simple and straightforward communication of what they are feeling is more effective. For people who "play" so intensely that safewords are a good idea, if they are NOT roleplaying and doing resistance play, isn't it even more critical that the submissive kind of keep an open flow of communication while they are interacting? For resistance playing and pretend "forced" S&M absolutely a code is necessary. But when threads about "roleplaying" come up, the vast majority say they don't roleplay and what they do is real. Yet many people have lots of codes set up. It seems like people feel S&M official if they use safewords or boast "Oh I always have safewords as part of my 'scene'" -- and for inexperienced people, the exact people who want to feel "S&M official" - they would be a hell of a lot better off to just use DIRECT communication as they figure stuff out. Unless they are roleplaying a non consensual act. Rant over. Akasha

FieryOpal -> RE: I'd like to get subs' takes on this writing. (3/9/2014 4:08:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha When "safewords" replace good, old-fashioned CLEAR communication there is a problem. A bunch of codes - really? All it does is create drama and a perception of "this is a big deal I am using this special code word to communicate to someone and now I feel weird and uneasy" for some people. Safewords in a lot of cases are like "the cool kids' secret code" and you are in the club when you can use super special words in an circumstance where you should be able to instead articulate much more effectively, "I am feeling a little uneasy - can we stop and talk for a second?" The original purpose of a safeword was so that when a sub/bottom was saying "no! stop!" it was to say "I am not faking it; this isn't play, I am really in distress." You know - roleplaying. Someone pretending to be abducted or raped or who is possibly resisting during the entire thing. Meanwhile a lot of people into S&M now say "Oh, I don't roleplay what I do is real" and almost insinuate that playing a "role" is also for newbies or novices. I have no issue with couples that effectively use whatever codes work for them. Hell, go ahead and use morse code or make up your own entire language so long as you both like and use it. But I think for others, the use of "code word" or "safewords" just adds an element of "this is kind of big deal to interrupt my flow and ask permission to convey your fears and emotions" in a situation where no one is resisting, no one is roleplaying, and a simple and straightforward communication of what they are feeling is more effective. For people who "play" so intensely that safewords are a good idea, if they are NOT roleplaying and doing resistance play, isn't it even more critical that the submissive kind of keep an open flow of communication while they are interacting? For resistance playing and pretend "forced" S&M absolutely a code is necessary. But when threads about "roleplaying" come up, the vast majority say they don't roleplay and what they do is real. Yet many people have lots of codes set up. It seems like people feel S&M official if they use safewords or boast "Oh I always have safewords as part of my 'scene'" -- and for inexperienced people, the exact people who want to feel "S&M official" - they would be a hell of a lot better off to just use DIRECT communication as they figure stuff out. Unless they are roleplaying a non consensual act. Rant over. Akasha Your position is quite valid, as well as those expressed by others, and I agree with everything you've said. Safewords should never replace open communication. But not everyone who plays is partnered up with their spouse/SO or in an established relationship dynamic. I could tell when my husband wasn't getting into an activity, which had nothing to do with safety or his discomfort and went well beyond those aspects of play. We already had sufficient trust and familiarity with one another for me to be able to read him, to know the difference between slight resistance, consensual-non-consent, how far to go with role-playing, when to push or introduce something new, when to move onto something else. Part of our dynamic was and probably always will be for me, my getting (further) turned on by his being turned on, and vice versa. The upward spiraling loop. Not only that, those who say they don't role play and that it's all for real, great. But whether they acknowledge the role-playing component in their interactions or not, they often incorporate "forced"/CNC elements into their play. I don't know anybody who doesn't to some extent, which doesn't mean there aren't those who have gotten past that level of "real"ness. Open-ended communication flow is key. I don't believe having a safeword system in place detracts from this.

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