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RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/7/2014 8:46:32 AM   
MasterCaneman


Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline 		This may be a simplistic answer, but our club attorney advised us this: if it happens, tell the officer you took 'one step back', which satisfies the legal requirement of 'retreat' in NYS.

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The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

Goddess Wrangler



(in reply to Zonie63)
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RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/7/2014 9:20:43 AM   
altoonamaster


Posts: 184
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		bottom line is simply this break into someones house to rob or hurt pay the penatly

(in reply to Zonie63)
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RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/7/2014 7:36:23 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		The fundamental human right of self defense exists quite separately from the 2nd Amendment, Joether. It exists with or without a firearm. The 2nd deals with the security of a free state. I believe, as the framers did, that guns among the people serve as one hell of a good deterrent to tyranny. Where we hit the crossover is that gun ownership is a specific individual right in this country, and they are also an excellent tool for self-defense, among other things.





_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to joether)
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RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/7/2014 9:54:16 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

And if you want the details of the court ruling about blanket handgun bans being unlawful, follow the link.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/07-290

And it does link the fundamental right of self defense to the second amendment by the way the decision was worded.
quote:


The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition—in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute—would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional. Because Heller conceded at oral argument that the D. C. licensing law is permissible if it is not enforced arbitrarily and capriciously, the Court assumes that a license will satisfy his prayer for relief and does not address the licensing requirement. Assuming he is not disqualified from exercising Second Amendment rights, the District must permit Heller to register his handgun and must issue him a license to carry it in the home. Pp. 56–64.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/7/2014 10:07:28 PM   
LorraineCA


Posts: 114
Joined: 12/10/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Okay, some asshole breaks into my home at 3AM, you prefer I offer coffee?


I'm taking a Law Enforcement class and someone asked a similar question. If someone breaks into your house, goes to the refrigerator, sits at the table and is eating and then the homeowner enters the room. If the intruder is non-threatening all you can do is call the police (and/or tell him to leave.) You can not block his/her exit, you can not point a gun at him/her and tell him to stay put. You can not harm him/her in anyway or threaten him/her. I live in Los Angeles, CA

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/7/2014 10:34:39 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Take a better class.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to LorraineCA)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/7/2014 10:47:11 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I'm taking a Law Enforcement class and someone asked a similar question. If someone breaks into your house, goes to the refrigerator, sits at the table and is eating and then the homeowner enters the room. If the intruder is non-threatening all you can do is call the police (and/or tell him to leave.) You can not block his/her exit, you can not point a gun at him/her and tell him to stay put. You can not harm him/her in anyway or threaten him/her. I live in Los Angeles, CA


And in some states, if you have a sign put up reading "Posted: No Trespassing", you have the right to use force, including deadly force, to defend your property as the sign has already provided legal warning. Yep, Granny Clampett can fire rock salt in your bum without having to call a warning and you never enter her kitchen uninvited.

California law often bears no resemblance to law in the rest of the country. i.e. Sacramento statutes that provide for mandatory jail time and fines for smoking tobacco in public but firing up a doobie while holding less than two ounces is no harm, no foul. At least they accepted a reality check over the proposed law requiring all children 12 and under to have a tracking RFID put into their body. (2005 when I was out there doing some work for SMUD)

A buddy of mine that is a gun rights advocate in the San Francisco area sent me a link to a recent San Diego court case you might find interesting for your law enforcement class.
http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/content/view.php?pk_id=0000000722

The 9th circuit court included in their opinion on restrictive gun control laws in San Diego County includes a really good historical overview on the subject. It even makes a passing reference to the racist roots of gun control legislation.

Cited Clayton Cramer work overview here: http://libcom.org/library/racist-roots-gun-control-clayton-e-cramer


(in reply to LorraineCA)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/8/2014 7:04:55 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Okay, some asshole breaks into my home at 3AM, you prefer I offer coffee?


I'm not aware of a single case that people are upset about where that happened. In these problem cases a real common denominator is that the person didn't stand their ground, the shooter actively advanced and escalated the situation often hunting an unarmed victim down.

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/8/2014 8:58:32 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

The fundamental human right of self defense exists quite separately from the 2nd Amendment, Joether. It exists with or without a firearm. The 2nd deals with the security of a free state. I believe, as the framers did, that guns among the people serve as one hell of a good deterrent to tyranny. Where we hit the crossover is that gun ownership is a specific individual right in this country, and they are also an excellent tool for self-defense, among other things.





Even a dog is allowed the right of self defense shouldn't people have as many rights as a dog.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/8/2014 9:00:14 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LorraineCA


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Okay, some asshole breaks into my home at 3AM, you prefer I offer coffee?


I'm taking a Law Enforcement class and someone asked a similar question. If someone breaks into your house, goes to the refrigerator, sits at the table and is eating and then the homeowner enters the room. If the intruder is non-threatening all you can do is call the police (and/or tell him to leave.) You can not block his/her exit, you can not point a gun at him/her and tell him to stay put. You can not harm him/her in anyway or threaten him/her. I live in Los Angeles, CA


That seemed totally bizarre until you pointed out that you live in CA.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to LorraineCA)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/8/2014 9:04:22 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Okay, some asshole breaks into my home at 3AM, you prefer I offer coffee?


I'm not aware of a single case that people are upset about where that happened. In these problem cases a real common denominator is that the person didn't stand their ground, the shooter actively advanced and escalated the situation often hunting an unarmed victim down.

Wrong while you may or may not have participated in it all your allies were up in arms wanting a man to be jailed for shooting an intruder who pushed into their home at 1 am

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/9/2014 12:44:55 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		Home invasion?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/10/us/home-invasion-gun-rights/

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2014/03/08/flesh-eating-bacteria-kills-man-who-survived-brutal-home-invasion/

http://www.chillicothegazette.com/article/20140307/NEWS01/303070006/Police-investigating-home-invasion-shooting-Church-Street

http://www.lcsun-news.com/las_cruces-news/ci_24855106/las-cruces-fighter-joe-torrez-preparing-legal-defense

http://www.msnewsnow.com/story/24465866/elderly-couple-shot-during-home-invasion

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/02/naked-man-shot-choking-dog-miami_n_2395851.html

http://www.azfamily.com/news/Phoenix-homeowner-reportedly-shoots-and-kills-alleged-intruder-185438952.html

http://www.wbbjtv.com/news/local/Homeowner-Shoots-at-Burglars-185179482.html

Open carry?

http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/11/off-duty-cop-shoots-and-kills-a-teen-robbing-him-at-gunpoint-video/#ixzz2tKwaOIiC%22



(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/9/2014 2:15:16 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
That seemed totally bizarre until you pointed out that you live in CA.



I'm in CA as well, and it's a rather twisted reading of how the law works here - hence my advice that she find a better class on the subject.

The key bit is finding the intruder to be non-threatening. That is entirely at the discretion of the lawful resident of the premises. Entering the residence without authorization is the crossing of the rubicon. That in itself is all the threat needed, and all the proof required of intent to do harm. There is no need for an intruder to do anything more than that, for a resident to legally end that person, by means of a gun, or the big end of a pool cue, or with the bare hands wrapped around the throat.


_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/10/2014 9:25:33 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Wrong while you may or may not have participated in it all your allies were up in arms wanting a man to be jailed for shooting an intruder who pushed into their home at 1 am


Can you cite any evidence of that?


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/10/2014 12:16:18 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Wrong while you may or may not have participated in it all your allies were up in arms wanting a man to be jailed for shooting an intruder who pushed into their home at 1 am


Can you cite any evidence of that?



look at the Maryland stand your ground thread.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/10/2014 12:32:56 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LorraineCA
I'm taking a Law Enforcement class and someone asked a similar question. If someone breaks into your house, goes to the refrigerator, sits at the table and is eating and then the homeowner enters the room. If the intruder is non-threatening all you can do is call the police (and/or tell him to leave.) You can not block his/her exit, you can not point a gun at him/her and tell him to stay put. You can not harm him/her in anyway or threaten him/her. I live in Los Angeles, CA



Take the comments here with a big dollop of salt.

If your class on law enforcement is doing it right; they will be teaching the statutes and interpretations on your region.

Now, whether those statutes and interpretations are just and acceptable is a subject for a political science or philosophy class.

(in reply to LorraineCA)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/10/2014 12:51:07 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
That seemed totally bizarre until you pointed out that you live in CA.



I'm in CA as well, and it's a rather twisted reading of how the law works here - hence my advice that she find a better class on the subject.

The key bit is finding the intruder to be non-threatening. That is entirely at the discretion of the lawful resident of the premises. Entering the residence without authorization is the crossing of the rubicon. That in itself is all the threat needed, and all the proof required of intent to do harm. There is no need for an intruder to do anything more than that, for a resident to legally end that person, by means of a gun, or the big end of a pool cue, or with the bare hands wrapped around the throat.


I accept you greater knowledge of CA law. Here we mostly hear about nutcases like this professor.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/10/2014 12:57:24 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The "fear" factor is relative to environment.

That's lame. Fear and reality frequently differ.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/10/2014 12:57:47 PM   
altoonamaster


Posts: 184
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		okay i offer pie and coffee then shoot him?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/10/2014 12:59:22 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Even a dog is allowed the right of self defense shouldn't people have as many rights as a dog.

A silly tangent, and untrue. A dog bites, and it's all over.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 40
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