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RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/8/2014 8:24:55 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

I used to be a Christian (haven't we talked about that before?) While not every atheist used to be a christian it is very very common. What you'll find is that stereotypically atheists know more about Christianity than the average Christian and that's not just random. Learning too much about Christianity is what caused a lot of us too deconvert.

So it's not that my comment is "ill informed", I've been there and done that, I do get it. I just wish that you'd get it too.


I don't think you and I have ever discussed this but i do understand what you are saying as a personal belief... but why not let them have their beliefs without snide remarks?

Since you knew what she was saying it makes your comments all the more hurtful for no good reason at all.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/8/2014 8:25:15 PM >

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RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/8/2014 8:25:09 PM   
Rawni


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Not at all Rawni... it is a simple fact that if you do not have faith you cannot understand being saved... I just pointed that out. They both made comments that did not match what Lorraine was saying. I don't know any other way to say it but direct... and honestly as i always am.

Butch


You stated that acceptance of God is being saved didn't you?

First of all according to the bible, acceptance of God can only come by way of Jesus Christ according to most Christians. Now, I know people that accept Christ and do not believe that he was the son of god, but they accept god and believe in Jesus. Then we have people that accept god, without Jesus and have older documents that they believe in.

So... how can you know that these people do not have an understanding of being saved? If there is one true way... and only one true word of god... then a whole lot of people are going to be surprised, including some of those that accepted god by way of his son Jesus. You have to read the whole book to get that and if you believe one part, you need to believe the other parts in my opinion and then some of those saved... shall be very surprised on their judgement day when god/jesus says... I never knew you... for one reason or another.

Therefore I still see your contempt for others that do not receive saving as you believe it should take place and therefore they are not saved and cannot understand it.



< Message edited by Rawni -- 3/8/2014 8:27:30 PM >

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RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/8/2014 8:33:49 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rawni

First of all according to the bible, acceptance of God can only come by way of Jesus Christ.... Then we have people that accept god, without Jesus and have older documents that they believe in.

I've always been fond of a Zen teaching story that I read somewhere. A neophyte approaches his Abbot and begs of him how best to teach the truths of the Sutras. The Abbot's reply is, "Burn them."

K.

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RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/8/2014 8:34:51 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
As a man of faith I understand what being saved means... you could not because you don't believe... Yet it did not stop you from making an ill informed comment...I was just pointing that out to stef.


I used to be a Christian (haven't we talked about that before?) While not every atheist used to be a christian it is very very common. What you'll find is that stereotypically atheists know more about Christianity than the average Christian and that's not just random. Learning too much about Christianity is what caused a lot of us too deconvert.

So it's not that my comment is "ill informed", I've been there and done that, I do get it. I just wish that you'd get it too.

This.

seconded

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RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/8/2014 8:35:25 PM   
Rawni


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RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/9/2014 7:02:12 AM   
chatterbox24


Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline 		Christian does not equate poor. Just because you are a Christian does not mean a life agony and pain and deprivation, scraping for money. It doesn't mean living a life of pain, and living for the day of Heaven while you are miserable on earth. I will admit evangelist, many of them, live in excess, having more then they really need. Remember they are just people! For every insincere Christian, there are those who are sincere. I have no problem with the leader of a ministry living in comfort. When is the last time any of us dug a well for a village so they have clean water, or fed the children so they wouldn't starve, or started a school, even in dangerous areas so others can have a better life. A person doesn't have to be a Christian to do good things, that is true, but overall it is alot of Christian organizations who actively strive to do such things.
Believing, studying and becoming more prolific of the word, builds. I will just put it this way, its like having an internal treasure chest when fed it grows, and works its way outward for the benefit of others AND YOURSELF. Its like knowing something others don't, but without belief, one will never understand. NEVER. We know something you don't.
A lot of christians never get to that place because they don't want to put the work in to get there, they are tight fisted and don't want to part with their money because although they want to believe they are skeptics. I, myself, don't tithe like I should, and its not just about the offering plate, it can be as simple as helping a neighbor, who you might not even particularly like. I can share this, I have never parted with my money in the name of the Lord whether for betterment of myself, a friend, a stranger, or even who I consider an enemy and not been paid back 10 fold, whether by unbelievable happenings, things just falling into place or actual money. I never regret it.

< Message edited by chatterbox24 -- 3/9/2014 7:15:51 AM >

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RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/9/2014 9:11:12 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I can see it is totally beyond your comprehension.

Terms like Ill informed and ignorant accurately describe your understanding of our position. Please take a moment and recognize that. Not having walked in our shoes you don't understand our motivations.

While I expect it's comforting to tell yourself we don't understand, that's not the case. I spent the first half of my life as a Christian and others here have reported similar stories. We aren't speaking out because we understand less than you, we're speaking out because we understand more.

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RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/9/2014 10:03:31 PM   
LorraineCA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
You do realize that in the early church, ministers rarely had more than a mud brick home with a dirt floor. But these TV preachers seem to need the ultimate in homes?


I understand what you are saying. I also understand that the TV evangelists stole money from the ministry to pay for their expensive homes and other expenses. Some TV evangelists paid for prostitution. However, Joel Osteen is unique in that he doesn't accept anything from the church. So he spends his money to buy or build a large beautiful home. When Oprah visited his house even she said that she doesn't believe in the "poverty mindset" that people have about the gospels. She even said that God wants us to prosper and be wealthy.

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RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/10/2014 5:19:42 AM   
chatterbox24


Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline 		Im right your wrong. IM always right. Didn't you know that? RIght as rain. I will never be wrong as long as I live. ITs not in my vocabulary. DId I tell you I disagree? Yes IM right, definitely, for sure. No doubt about it..........around the mulberry bush we go.
I actually do understand, and IM sorry it was a bad experience. I left a few times, and then came back. NO arguments that you feel I don't understand.
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I can see it is totally beyond your comprehension.

Terms like Ill informed and ignorant accurately describe your understanding of our position. Please take a moment and recognize that. Not having walked in our shoes you don't understand our motivations.

While I expect it's comforting to tell yourself we don't understand, that's not the case. I spent the first half of my life as a Christian and others here have reported similar stories. We aren't speaking out because we understand less than you, we're speaking out because we understand more.



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My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/10/2014 5:27:18 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I spent the first half of my life as a Christian and others here have reported similar stories. We aren't speaking out because we understand less than you, we're speaking out because we understand more.

This claim that you "understand more" about Christianity than Christians do is not something I've ever seen demonstrated in any of your nearly 5,000 posts. And given that Christianity exists in many different forms, it seems pure hubris for you to indulge in imagining that your limited personal experience equips you to make such a sweeping claim. But that said, I don't mean to question your rejection of Christianity, because one thing all its forms share in common is a belief that pride leads to destruction.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/10/2014 6:04:47 AM >

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RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/10/2014 10:03:48 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
I actually do understand, and IM sorry it was a bad experience.

Nope, that's not why. You and kd care to pull anything else off the offensive list of lies christians tell themselves about atheists before recognizing that you don't understand where I'm coming from?


quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
I left a few times, and then came back. NO arguments that you feel I don't understand.


If you do get where I'm coming from than by all means explain rational skepticism and within that framework how the null hypothesis applies to your position.

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RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/10/2014 10:38:12 AM   
chatterbox24


Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline 		I'm not sure what offensive lies you think I make about you or your belief system, they just might not be what you think.
If one doesn't believe or have faith in a higher realm, then there is only rational thought. Which would make skepticism trump any faith in that concept. Skepticism and only self belief or worldly knowledge rules without the faith I speak of. I will not totally claim to understand you but I will try my best not to judge you or call you a liar. I have no beef with you.
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
I actually do understand, and IM sorry it was a bad experience.

Nope, that's not why. You and kd care to pull anything else off the offensive list of lies christians tell themselves about atheists before recognizing that you don't understand where I'm coming from?


quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
I left a few times, and then came back. NO arguments that you feel I don't understand.


If you do get where I'm coming from than by all means explain rational skepticism and within that framework how the null hypothesis applies to your position.



_____________________________

I am like a box of chocolates, you never know what variety you are going to get on any given day.

My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/10/2014 10:40:48 AM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


You do realize that in the early church, ministers rarely had more than a mud brick home with a dirt floor. But these TV preachers seem to need the ultimate in homes?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drMMBE6KRbI


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RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/10/2014 10:53:06 AM   
chatterbox24


Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline 		What about a Timex bought on sale? Hmmmmm, not sure. Funny woman with video
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


You do realize that in the early church, ministers rarely had more than a mud brick home with a dirt floor. But these TV preachers seem to need the ultimate in homes?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drMMBE6KRbI




_____________________________

I am like a box of chocolates, you never know what variety you are going to get on any given day.

My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/10/2014 8:41:16 PM   
GotSteel


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Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
I'm not sure what offensive lies you think I make about you or your belief system, they just might not be what you think.


This:
quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
I actually do understand, and IM sorry it was a bad experience.

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RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/10/2014 10:00:38 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LorraineCA

7 million people a week watch him and listen to his sermons. He has spiritually saved millions of people. He has the largest congregation in the USA. (40,000 people a week enter his church.) He was featured and praised on Oprah. Yet, in the forums whenever his name comes up people have nothing but bad things to say about him? Why?


Because they're jealous.

He seems like a decent fellow, but people determined to have an agenda will pick on every possible person with religion as their basis for life. That is his basis. (Clearly).

This guy seems real (to me).

Is he the next Billy Graham? Who knows.

A lot of folks will cut him up solely because he's not...and they will even presuppose his ascension, even as he's never claimed anything such.

He seems like a decent fellow but....anyone with a reasonable chance at decency (and some success in life), will be cut to shreds by those who have never succeeded at anything.

It's kinda like that bit about....don't date a guy who can't be kind to a waitress/waiter.

Don't listen to anyone who opts to tear down a preacher solely because they're successful or....carry a Bible.

I wouldn't attend his church if it was the last church on the planet because....I (personally) find large churches anathema.

He's still a (seemingly) decent fellow who (seemingly) actually believes what he sells.

I don't think he's a crook at all.

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RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/11/2014 8:58:31 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
If you do get where I'm coming from than by all means explain rational skepticism and within that framework how the null hypothesis applies to your position.


quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
If one doesn't believe or have faith in a higher realm, then there is only rational thought. Which would make skepticism trump any faith in that concept. Skepticism and only self belief or worldly knowledge rules without the faith I speak of. I will not totally claim to understand you but I will try my best not to judge you or call you a liar. I have no beef with you.


Can anyone translate anything having to do with my question out of that response?

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RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/11/2014 9:09:43 AM   
GotSteel


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Status: offline 		Alternatively people may just be taking issue with the prosperity gospel.

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RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/11/2014 9:20:05 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Alternatively people may just be taking issue with the prosperity gospel.



Someone did.

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RE: Pastor Joel Osteen - 3/11/2014 9:22:59 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LorraineCA


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
You do realize that in the early church, ministers rarely had more than a mud brick home with a dirt floor. But these TV preachers seem to need the ultimate in homes?


I understand what you are saying. I also understand that the TV evangelists stole money from the ministry to pay for their expensive homes and other expenses. Some TV evangelists paid for prostitution. However, Joel Osteen is unique in that he doesn't accept anything from the church. So he spends his money to buy or build a large beautiful home. When Oprah visited his house even she said that she doesn't believe in the "poverty mindset" that people have about the gospels. She even said that God wants us to prosper and be wealthy.




While I really hate the preachers who use religion to scam people out of money, I am not sure this is much better. I have a hard time understanding how someone can claim to want to help others but feels the need to put that kind of money into a home. Now if you told me he had remolded it so that he can use it to house the poor I might feel differently, but I don't think that is the case here. While I agree that God wants us to prosper I don't think he meant we should be living in mansions. In my opinion if you are claiming to be a minister of God, you shouldn't be living like you are rich. If you are something is wrong somewhere.

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