RE: Are WE racists? (Full Version)

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maybemaybenot -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 5:00:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: porchia

nasty slave obviously the author of this comment fails to realize that Aids started when a white man decided to have intercourse with a monkey.   He got the virus from this monkey and passed it around to all of his human sex partners.   Ironic isn't it.   So misinformed and so uneducated the haters are!


Not to hijack this thread, BUT that is not how AIDS came to be. I will be brief since this is off topic.
Monkeys in Africa carry the SIV virus  <Simian Immunodeficiency Virus > There are several strains of this virus in various species of Monkeys. The SIVcpz is found in chimpanzees. This strain is almost identical to the human form of HIV.  The most respected theory is that Man contracted this from hunting and eating monkeys with various strains of CIV which crossed species. There are other other theories, but none of them are from having intercourse with a monkey. All the theories are that it is blood born, cross specied virus that went awry.

                   mbmbn




Lilmissbossy -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 6:52:49 PM)

Northerngent, i won't hold my breath for your answer as to where this unlevel playing field is since you've successfully avoided any answer so far.

Here's an example as to why I think your entire philosophy is wrong.

Pakistanis in England are unquestionably the biggest sufferers of racism, wouldn't you agree?  Yet as a whole, they are successful financially.

My point being that if the biggest sufferers of racism can work their way out of poverty, what excuse can you manufacture for everyone else who doesn't ? 

My guess is that in the cold light of day, those people simply do not possess the will, drive or ambition to work their way out. 

You get what you work for, not what someone with a social conscience decides to give you in order to maintain an undeserved balance.




meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 1:37:30 AM)

According to the home office statistics, the differnce in success between Indians, Pakistani and Bangladeshi immigrants is quite startling. Indians being one of the most successful immigrant groups and the Bangladeshi being one of the poorests. However, this could be because the Bangladeshi are looked down upon and dare I say discriminated against by other peoples from the Indian sub-continent.




Estring -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 1:47:16 AM)

Wow, you mean whites aren't the only people who can discriminate? You mean that Indians discriminate against people from Bangladesh?  Light skinned Brazilians discriminate against darker skinned Brazilians? Puerto Ricans and Mexicans do the same? Japanese discriminate against foreigners and other Asians such as Koreans and Chinese? Even Blacks look down on other darker Blacks? What a world!




meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 1:53:45 AM)

Another reason for poverty amongst the Asians is that many went to Britain to work in the textile industry and were left in isolated textile towns (with their white counterparts) when the textile industry collapsed. Having come from a coal and steel area where both indusries collapsed and left thousands jobless I have sympathy for them but the answer is to get out. Here, I am somewhat in agreement with NorthernGent, education is key but I don't know of anyone of any colour who is deprived of education in the UK. Also if NorthernGent goes around East London he will find many sweat shops. These are almost invariably owned by Asians employing Asians and it is not unusual to find people working between 60-80 hours for wages well below the minimal wage.

However, the vast majority of these Asian people were not victims of slavery which was where I believe, this thread began so they have not been kow towed over centuries by white oppression.




EnglishDomNW -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 1:54:53 AM)

There's too much emphasis placed on race altogether.  If it was all cured tomorrow, would people be more understanding of people who were overweight, or short, or bald, or underweight?  Anything that is a distinction between people is an excuse for discrimination.

Look at me, I'm English so I'm better than everyone.  Imagine how hard it is being nice to your inferiors 24 hours a day.





NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 2:13:06 AM)

missbossy,

No avoidance of the question, I just can't see the point in repeating myself.

But, here are a couple of links:

The first from the UK parliament on the disproporationate amount of black Britons in prison. The second from a charity that aims to highlight racial inequality. The third actually from the BBC - it tells a story when a part of the establishment, such as the BBC, is holding it's hands up and saying there is something wrong.


http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmhaff/193/19317.htm 

http://www.jrf.org.uk/knowledge/findings/socialpolicy/N69.asp Take not of this particular comment African men suffered severe disadvantage in spite of educational success: an African graduate was seven times more likely to be unemployed than a white graduate. Hardly a level playing field when a black Briton does not have the same employment opportunities where his/her educational success is on a par with whites.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2002/race/the_segregation_factor.stm This is a response to the Bradford riots, driven by inequality, and talks about employment and poverty inequality.

missbossy, if you're going to swerve the key issues and just pick out little bits and turn it into something that it is not then please don't bother replying. I take it you're English/British, why you can't accept that there is racial inequality in Britain is beyond me. It is a serious problem that needs to be resolved. If you don't recognise there is a problem then how can you solve that problem? Regardless of our comparatively good record of tolerance, the level of social inequality in Britain is an embarrasment and I suppose if a person has any ounce of deceny he/she will see it is just plain wrong and shouldn't be happening.

NorthernGent




meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 2:33:00 AM)

NorthernGent, you also have to address the issue as to why there is a much higher proportion of black prisoners than Asian prisoners if racism is as straight forward as you claim. Given that it is acccepted in Britain today (government stats) Asians are more likely to suffer from racism than Blacks, one would expect a far higher number of Asians in prison than Blacks which is not the case.

Having worked in prison, I didn't notice any more blacks than whites claiming to be there for something they hadn't done but I do accept that there appears to be harsher sentencing of Blacks than other groups in some areas. There is a large difference in sentencing habits by judges in varying areas of the country so the picture isn't uniform. The courts in SE London for example, have or had when I worked in the Probation Service, a far harsher sentencing regime than NE London. Courts in inner city areas appear to have harsher sentencing regimes than county areas. Whether this harsher sentencing regime has something to do with the local population being black, is difficult to say but these harsher sentencing areas don't seem to send so many Asians to prison. I won't deny there is probably something racist going on here but there is also something cultural that afflicts the inner city Black population.




NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 2:49:56 AM)

meatcleaver,

Even though the proportion of black Britons in prison is obscene it is not just law that is a problem. There is also crime, housing, pverty, education, workplace discrimination. All of these issues are covered in the three links I posted and they include Pakistanis and Bangladeshis who have had to set up their own businesses due to discrimination in the workplace and live in some of the worst housing in Britain in places like Oldham, Burnley and Bradford - resulting in riots. This is set against a backdrop of general inequality and racism.

The most disturbing finding is possibly the quote saying black British graduates are seven times less likely to find employment than white equivalents - in other words, same educational success, completely different opportunities. If you don't provide an incentive for people to succeed then the result will quite probably be crime, relative poverty and a feeling of alienation fostering resentment. Why bother abiding by socities norms if there is no incentive to do so?

It is easy for us to play it down because we don't suffer the discrimination day in, day out but if I was standing in ths shoes of a British muslim or a black Briton I would be pretty pissed off with the situation.




Lilmissbossy -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 3:09:16 AM)

As a whole, Pakistanis and Indians succeed perfectly well in the UK.
As a whole, they are the biggest victims of racism in the UK

The reason they're successful is because they stop this whole reliance thing.

Where you and I disagree is that you seem to be feeding the culture of reliance.

If a black graduate is relying on the white establishment to provide employment for him, maybe he should be taking a leaf out of other minorities books and provide the employment for himself.  Because the playing field of starting your own business in the UK is as level as it can be.

Once you then have enough people doing the same, you stop being reliant on the establishment because you have become the establishment.

I can't tell you how infuriating I find your quoting of riots as if that's somehow acceptable or even understandable behaviour.  No, it's really inexcusable behaviour.  You should be more concerned with the homes and businesses of the victims of those riots that got burned to the ground, not the idiots with the bricks and petrol bombs that took part in them.




EnglishDomNW -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 3:21:32 AM)

A quote from the very BBC link you posted.......


"Research by the Policy Studies Institute concludes that racism is one reason for ethnic minorities becoming self employed.
One way out of this predicament has been for Asians to set up in business for themselves.
For Pakistanis, says the study, running their own business means greater self esteem and greater independence. It also allowed them to perform their religious duties more freely. "




NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 3:23:59 AM)

missbossy,

There is no shame in being wrong. The stats from respected sources have been provided for you. Even the BBC, an integral part of the British establishment, is holding it's hands up and saying racial discimination is a serious problem in Britain.

If you still believe "on the whole, Pakistanis succeed perfectly well in the UK" then either you haven't read the articles or you have read them and decided to ignore them. My advice is to read, learn and understand.

NorthernGent 




meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 3:34:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

meatcleaver,

Even though the proportion of black Britons in prison is obscene it is not just law that is a problem. There is also crime, housing, pverty, education, workplace discrimination. All of these issues are covered in the three links I posted and they include Pakistanis and Bangladeshis who have had to set up their own businesses due to discrimination in the workplace and live in some of the worst housing in Britain in places like Oldham, Burnley and Bradford - resulting in riots. This is set against a backdrop of general inequality and racism.

The most disturbing finding is possibly the quote saying black British graduates are seven times less likely to find employment than white equivalents - in other words, same educational success, completely different opportunities. If you don't provide an incentive for people to succeed then the result will quite probably be crime, relative poverty and a feeling of alienation fostering resentment. Why bother abiding by socities norms if there is no incentive to do so?

It is easy for us to play it down because we don't suffer the discrimination day in, day out but if I was standing in ths shoes of a British muslim or a black Briton I would be pretty pissed off with the situation.


Having worked in a Black inner city area for ten years, there are a lot of complaints from the Black population about the amounts of police harrassment and the amount of black people in prison. At the same time the communities complain that the police don't do enough to stop drug and gun crime which is largely black on black. The police are damned if they do and damned if they don't and I'm no friend of the police but I can see they are put in a dilemma by the politicians and the community itself. They make arrests, then they are guilty of racial harrassment, they don't make arrests they are guilty of allowing 'no go' areas.

As for the worst housing subjected on the Asian population in Burnley, Oldham and Bradford. You will find that white working class are subject to the same housing. Bad housing is not a matter of racism but successive governments refusing to invest in public housing because middleclass Britain doesn't want an increase in tax and neither does it want any of its benefits diverted into investment in inner city areas.

There has been a report commisioned by the government and carried out by the LSE that states that while councils have been fullfilling their obligations to immigrants in regard to allocating money in benefits and housing, money has been reduced to the local white workingclass areas and so feeding resentment and racial tension. One of the reasons for the riots in the towns you mentioned.

If you look at the stats, most graduates are looking for work in the main metropolises and mainly London. Having been a graduate myself and looking for work in private companies at one time, the competition is very high. I did see a documentry on BBC about Black graduates facing a harder time getting work than white but one significant factor that didn't need to be highlighted was that white graduates, rather ironically, were far more willing to uproot and move to the otherside of the country than Black graduates but I don't deny there is probably something racially happening here but it doesn't tell the whole story.

The problem with looking at the headlines is that they don't tell the whole story and handwringing white middleclass do not acknowledge their indirect impact on the reasons for the statistics being as they are. Even Old and New labour have largely blamed white workingclass for racism while being unwilling to look beneath the surface and seeing it is their policies that magnify the obvious problems that there are.




NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 4:32:02 AM)

meatcleaver,

Your statement "As for the worst housing subjected on the Asian population in Burnley, Oldham and Bradford. You will find that white working class are subject to the same housing" - it is simply not true.

Have a look at this link from the Commission for Racial Equality http://www.cre.gov.uk/Default.aspx.LocID-0hgnew007.RefLocID-0hg00900c001002.Lang-EN.htm scroll down to housing and it states "67% of the ethnic minority population live in the 88 most deprived local authority districts, compared with 37% of the white population. Ethnic minorities are also six times more likely to be living in overcrowded conditions and are three times more likely to be homeless" - British whites are not subjected to the same poor hosuing conditions.

Your quote on working in black inner-city areas - while I don't doubt it, it is an annecdote rather than wide-ranging, empirical research. I personally wouldn't use it to support my argument.

All of the links posted show there is institutional racism in Britain. No wonder black Britons are struggling to climb the social ladder when black graduates are seven times less likely to find employment than whites of a similar educational standard.

When you say "I don't deny there is probably something racially happening here" - what exactly do you mean? Do you mean Britain is institutionally racist or Britain isn't? Come on meatcleaver, you're alomost there - just make the short step and substitute probably for definitely :-)

As for your comment on New and Old Labour policies magnifying the problem - that is open to debate and not really relevant to what we are discussing - that is, is Britain institutionally racist?

NorthernGent




meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 4:53:51 AM)

Look at the numbers and not the percentages. 67% ethnic minorities live in the 88 most deprived local authorities. Where do immigrants settle when they go to Britain? The inner city areas. But let's take two of those most deprived areas, Tower Hamlets and the Isle of Dogs and look where they are situated. Smack bang in the middle and within walking distance of the richest areas where their are the most available jobs in Britain.

37% of the white population is a huge number compared to the relatively small figure of 67% of the ethnic minorites. Aprox 20 million compared to 3.5 million. While the figures are disproportionate, this is largely due to the histories of the communities and the change in the economy, where money has moved out of cities towards greenfield sites rather than racism. Capital invests where there is the best returns. Years of social engineering has been unable to change the flow of capital. People have to follow capital and if they refuse to and are left behind it is not because of racism, though the accusation of racism is an easy get out of jail free card.

Why don't I live in a delapidated rundown Labour run workingclass area I grew up in? Because I didn't want to be trapped in a white ghetto so I got out. I couldn't find the job I wanted in London despite having a first and being multi-lingual. I moved on. If you sit where you are the world passes you by. You're implying that social engineering is in order but pray tell me when and where has social engineering worked? People enpower themselves and those that sit around and wait for handwringing white middleclasses to do anything about it will wait forever.

Is Britain institutionally racist? I don't believe in the term and I see it as another excuse to blame someone else for ones plight.




NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 5:01:27 AM)

meatcleaver,

Going around in circles. The stats are there, make of them what you will. Let's agree to disagree as this is in danger of being a 1000 page thread boring everyone into submission :-)

I've enjoyed the discussion, so all the best to you.

NorthernGent




meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 5:14:30 AM)

When I started my business (which is not a huge affair) in Hackney, which is not unknown to have a black population. I never got one application from a black person!

Do you know what black people in London call black policemen? Coonstable! It is not just a white problem that there is a disproportianate number of white policemen. etc etc etc.




Lilmissbossy -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 5:17:43 AM)

I'm not surprised this is one discussion you wouldn't follow through with northerngent.

Just in case you do return to it, here's my last post to you.

My solution to all this is that black people, like other minorities, work their way up through creating their own businesses and stop depending on the institutionally racist white establishment to provide jobs for them.

What's yours?  Because I bet it's either "positive discrimination" (the most racist thing of all) or has the word "give" liberally sprinkled throughout it.

There's a reason the white establishment is where it is.

They worked to get there.




NakisisaX -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 5:51:28 AM)

yes they worked hard to force others to do their work for them. real accomplishment there...




meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 6:12:21 AM)

The problem I have with NorthernGent is that he puts forward problems faced by ethnic minorities which I don't deny are there and then implies all the problems are due to white racism. The inherent problems in Britains inner cities are many and complex and many problems faced by the ethnic minorities are the same problem faced by white workingclass people in the same area. If  NorthernGent took out all the white people that live in the shires from his percentages he would probably find that the problems faced in the inner cities by the ethnic minorities and white workingclass are very similar. Lack of investment in public housing, lack of work due to the change in the economy and far too much money spent employing expensive social workers and bureaucrats to solve the problems but only increase the problems because they consume wealth that could be better spent on the problems at hand.

NorthernGent has admitted to being Old Labour. I used to be a member of the Old Labour and saw what was going on which is why I no longer would have anything to do with the Labour party. It never puts forward viable solutions but just carries on whinging about problems rather like NorthernGent does, whose only solution I have read is that it is the responsibilty of government to sort out problems and there in lays his dilemma. If you wait for government to find a solution you will wait forever and gives away ones attitude to society and that is that society owes you a living. Which to me is part of the problem.

Well I don't have anything to do with the Labour Party old or new because I no longer live in Britain but I wouldn't even if I lived there and I come from an old Labour background so I was not brought up to be hostile to the Labour Party, quite the opposite.




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