RE: Are WE racists?

RE: Are WE racists? (Full Version)

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NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 5:21:33 AM)
meatcleaver, Your quote: People respond to experience and while judging an entire race on the actions of a couple of people is irrational, emotions are not rational thoughts nor does an intellectual understanding of why one has such emotions prevent such emotions. To respond differently to ones experiences is a process, one doesn't have a switch in ones brain to flick for the 'right' or 'socially correct' emotional response. Modifying ones behaviour is a lot easier than modifying ones emotional responses. I thought SirKenin was just being candid about his emotional responses, he didn't say he stopped dealing with members of the mentioned race or that he threatened them. Your dancing around the issue here. SirKenin's dealings with other members of the same race are not the issue. The issue is he is pre-judging an entire race on the actions of two people. That is racism, pure and simple - no point dressing it up as something else. Racism should not be tolerated. Does SirKenin afford this charity to other groups? Are all white americans not to be trusted, are the Irish all IRA members not to be trusted? It doesn't make any sense. If SirKenin was consistent and said "I have no trust in the British because recently a British man murdered an American woman" then you could argue he is not respecting one group of people above another - but that doesn't appear to be the case. Also your above comment seems to be based on the premise that racism is a natural reaction. If this is the case, you are offering an opinion, that is not a statement of fact. I don't deny there is racism for a moment but it is not the concrete boots that many like Northerngent would have us believe. I never said anything of the sort. You have misundertsood me. Britain has a comparatively good record of tolerance but there is not a level playing-field in Britain and that is not offering an opinion it is a fact supported by socio-economic statistics. The brain without the heart is just as dumb as the heart without the brain, all function and little purpose. You will defend a blatantly racist comment and then accuse someone who believes in empathy with all people, regardless of background, of having no heart. Strange logic. meatcleaver, we're going around in circles with this and could be here in 2015 making the same points the way we're going so best to draw a line under it and call it a draw (or a tie in the US). NorthernGent

Level -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 5:38:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent When Britiain hands a level playing field to all of it's citizens then the ethnic minorities will have their chance to compete and earn representation. Until then, representation is achieved despite the imbalance. NorthernGent How would you propose seeing this come about?

porchia -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 5:58:51 AM)
meatcleaver---i tend to agree with NorthernGent---He raises some very valid points.

meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 5:58:56 AM)
You can have your definitions of racism and go around accusing everyone of being racist. You won't achieve your theoretical aims by alienating the people you want to convert. The problem with 'racism should not be tolerated' is that you are working with a definition that not everyone agrees with and what is and is not racism is subjective, except when blatant. There are so many shades in human intercourse that winning hearts and minds is far more important than making people jump through socially acceptable hoops. When troops in the Falklands were ordered to stop calling the locals 'Bennies', they started to call them 'Stills' as in 'Still Bennies'. Ordering how people should think is counter productive.

meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 6:04:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent When Britiain hands a level playing field to all of it's citizens then the ethnic minorities will have their chance to compete and earn representation. Until then, representation is achieved despite the imbalance. NorthernGent How would you propose seeing this come about? No doubt a leftwing dictatorship that knows what is best for the people while having little understanding of human behaviour and motivations. Jeez, I had my belly full of leftwingers who know best where I grew up. Couldn't wait to get out of the suffocating hell hole.

Lilmissbossy -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 6:17:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Where we disagree is this: I believe in order to earn something you need a level playing-field/equal opportunity. You need a chance in life. Without equal opportunity, there will always be an imbalance. Where is this imbalance, northerngent, or this unlevel playing field? I would like to read some detailed evidence of its existence rather than just say it exists. quote: If you look at the grass roots of Britain, there is a higher rate of poverty amongst ethnic minorities than whites (as a percentage of the respective populations). This is because of 40/50 years of discrimination in the workplace and wider society. I'm sorry, I just don't buy this excuse at all. If that were true then what is to stop those very poverty stricken minorities from building their own way out of that poverty by hard work by creating moneyspinning businesses within their own community? Lots of minorities do that without some mythical white people holding them back. It just seems to me to be politically correct excuse-making to say otherwise. quote: When Britiain hands a level playing field to all of it's citizens then the ethnic minorities will have their chance to compete and earn representation. Why does Britain need to hand anybody anything? It seems to me you are relying on catchphrases rather than detailed examples of how this mythical unlevel playing field is holding anyone back. What would you suggest to make the playing field level (that ISN'T a handout to someone who has done nothing to earn it?) quote: One piece of free advice - post about what is being said not what you would like me to say i.e I worry that what you and people with similar viewpoints are advocating is give black people representation in high office to maintain a racial balance' instead of instilling the belief that you need to work for it. I never said anything like it. Give people a chance in life, the opportunity and they'll thrive. Here's some free advice in return. Count how many times in your postings you talk about "giving people" something. You need to stop thinking that in order for people to better their lives we have to somehow donate to that life. There is already equal opportunity in Britain, no matter how politically correct it might be to pretend otherwise. The playing field is already level. It has been for years.

Level -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 6:20:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent When Britiain hands a level playing field to all of it's citizens then the ethnic minorities will have their chance to compete and earn representation. Until then, representation is achieved despite the imbalance. NorthernGent How would you propose seeing this come about? No doubt a leftwing dictatorship that knows what is best for the people while having little understanding of human behaviour and motivations. Jeez, I had my belly full of leftwingers who know best where I grew up. Couldn't wait to get out of the suffocating hell hole. LOL meatcleaver. I hear you. It's one reason I let my subscription to The Nation go; many in the left are just as censorous, close-minded, and fascist as some on the right. They're open-minded as long as you agree with them.

popeye1250 -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 8:16:08 AM)
Gent, "pedantic? There are three races; "Mongoloid", "Caucasoid", "Negroid". That's all. I didn't make up the rules. Being of Irish descent I can't go around calling myself a different "race" by referring to myself as "Celtic". "Celtic" is an Ethnic group just like "Hispanic", "Tarter", or "Saxon" And again, race is not determined by skin color. There are two guys here from Manchester, England who own a tobacco shop who are Pakistani with dark skin. Other than that they have Caucaision features. I'm getting pretty dark now too sitting in the sun everyday here by the pool! Some people try to pull the "race card" where none exists.

NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 9:28:54 AM)
popeye, You seem reasonable enough so I'll reply to you. Am I pulling the race card? Not really. I'm pointing out that someone who will judge an entire race on the actions of two people is racist. No major revelation is it. Some people are getting hysterical about it. To be honest, I'm losing interest, fast, because it is the same old tired replies - "You must be a socialist", "Typical left-winger" etc. We all know about the negative connotations attached to the left in the US - "reds under the bed" etc - communists completely demonised without understanding their politics. That is the last post from me on the subject. One point of order I can't resist :-) There was a recent study conducted in the British Isles - tested people's DNA from Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales. The evidence suggests that the Irish and Scottish are no more Celtic than the English - the Irish and Scots invented this Celtic tag in the 17th century as a means of distancing themselves from England. The study found that Wales was the one country where there today's inhabitants have more Celtic blood than the rest. It just goes to show, we're not as different as we're led to believe. NorthernGent

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 11:23:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent You seem reasonable enough so I'll reply to you. Am I pulling the race card? Not really. I'm pointing out that someone who will judge an entire race on the actions of two people is racist. No major revelation is it. Some people are getting hysterical about it. I think maybe it has something to do with the pool of people we interact with daily. If I walk outside. I'm going to see probably 8 white people for every black person. I'm see about 1 asian person for every 8 black people. So, that sorta explains it. If you've known only 10 pakistani's let's say in your life and 2 of them ripped you off. Well, that's a full 20 percent of your contact with that "culture" (culture in racism is often used in situations it shouldn't). So, why wouldn't a person become paranoid about doing business with someone that was brought up in the same culture. If twenty percent of the time someone raised in a particular culture has burned you, you might think twice. Same thing let's say I hire someone from france, and I get blown away that they want a two hour long lunch(don't know heard they like lunches, never met a french person, actually). Well, I hire another person from france, they to demand a two hour long lunch because that is how it was done back home. I'm not going to hire any more french people! If anything he isn't a racist, he'd have a adversion to the business ethics displayed in particular regions of the world, and passed through culture. So, unless you are denying certain cultures exhibit different values and standards, then he's not a racist. It isn't even skin color, it isn't languange. It's he's been ripped off by two people in a particular country. Nigeria is a hub for scamming, should I take that prince in those e-mails at face value, next time. Whatever. I really don't think to many people are racist. Most of the time if you ask them. They have a problem with the culture. Culture doesn't equal race. Race being in the context of Racism as used in this discussion equal to the outward appearance of physical features like skin color, nose size, lips, etc.... That's racist, how, it gets muddled with someone not wanting to do business within a certain culture is different. I sell on ebay right, I won't ship to Nigeria, why it's the scam capital of the world, that's why. Am I racist for not wanting to get ripped off? If so, I guess our definitions are different.

SirKenin -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 12:14:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Your dancing around the issue here. SirKenin's dealings with other members of the same race are not the issue. The issue is he is pre-judging an entire race on the actions of two people. That is racism, pure and simple - no point dressing it up as something else. Racism should not be tolerated. Does SirKenin afford this charity to other groups? Are all white americans not to be trusted, are the Irish all IRA members not to be trusted? It doesn't make any sense. If SirKenin was consistent and said "I have no trust in the British because recently a British man murdered an American woman" then you could argue he is not respecting one group of people above another - but that doesn't appear to be the case. You know what your problem is? You singled out one particular thing I said and have not got the foggiest of notions what My world view is. You sit there all high and mighty, pretending to know what someone is all about without having all the facts while judging other people that do the same thing to you. Quite frankly, I do not think you have any brains at all. I think the saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" holds especially true to you. So, for the record, I do not discriminate against Pakistanis. I do not hate them or dislike them. I give them a fair opportunity in business dealings, but I am cautious until I have had sufficient experience to prove that I have no need to be. At this point I do not. If you have a problem with that, that is your issue, but keep your "racism" bullshit to yourself, thankyou. A wise man gets all the facts before s/he opens his/her mouth.

popeye1250 -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 12:23:03 PM)
Gent, did you just call me an Anglo-Saxon?

NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 12:34:48 PM)
popeye, In a word, yes. A terrible affliction I know but you'll just have to cope like the rest of us :-) SirKenin, My comments were solely based on your comments that "you don't want to tar them all with the same brush" but "you are now wary of all of them". If you don't want allegations of racism coming your way best not to make racist comments. Nothing to do with being high and mighty - don't get an inferiority complex just because I'm English :-) There's nothing special about us. Kind Regards

popeye1250 -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 12:36:02 PM)
Gent, I don't believe I called you a "leftist" just that I think your philosophy is more grounded in socialism than in being a "leftist." I don't think you'd have much in common with the "leftists" in the U.S. but they're a whole differant breed. Think Barbara Streisand! lol I just think that the word "race" is bandied around too much these days especially by groups that are not in fact, a different "race", Hispanics for example in their efforts to try to stay in the U.S. I'm really not interested in what a person's race is if they're in the U.S. illegally. Their race is the least of their problems. We Deport ALL "races" equally!

meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 1:30:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent , My comments were solely based on your comments that "you don't want to tar them all with the same brush" but "you are now wary of all of them". If you don't want allegations of racism coming your way best not to make racist comments. Nothing to do with being high and mighty - don't get an inferiority complex just because I'm English :-) There's nothing special about us. Kind Regards Now this is your problem, you take one comment by someone who has mentioned an experience that has affected them and then you accuse them of being a racist without even knowing anything about them or their life. HOW VERY STALINIST! Are you sure you aren't a social worker? In my experience of lefties, they are all very well versed in the talk but when it comes to the walk they are somewhat crippled!

popeye1250 -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 1:38:40 PM)
When someone is in handcuffs and in the custody of an Immigration Officer and about to be deported their "race", "religion" or "ethnicity" is really a moot point at that time isn't it?

meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 1:39:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent My comments were solely based on your comments that "you don't want to tar them all with the same brush" but "you are now wary of all of them". If you don't want allegations of racism coming your way best not to make racist comments. Nothing to do with being high and mighty - don't get an inferiority complex just because I'm English :-) There's nothing special about us. Kind Regards Really, this Stalinist sort of accusation reminds me of when I worked in the Probation Service (I was not a Probation Officer). I remember a PO accusing one young bloke of being a racist because of one innoxuous comment that didn't fit in with the social work party line and accused him of being a racist. The funny thing was, this young bloke not only had a black wife and lived with his black in-laws and lived in a neighbourhood with a large black population, he pointed out to the Probation Officer that it is her that chooses to go back to her white middleclass suburbs after work and leave all the black people behind so she had no credibility to talk to him about race relations. And rightly so.

NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 4:19:53 PM)
popeye, Fair enough. Socialism is an international movement - it crosses national boundaries so in that respect I could appear to be a Socialist. I can assure you I have values that mark me out as not being socialist. I am in Britain what we call "Old Labour". I believe in hard work, enterprise but also a level playing-field i.e. giving everyone the same opportunity. Also, when someone is having a hard time with life I don't believe in writing them off - society has a duty to care for all of it's citizens. Your point about someone being in the US illegally - I always find this baffling - why does it matter if immigrants are legal or illegal? If some fella in the US is trying to earn a living in a state miles from you what is the big deal? I could understand if you object to Government exploitation but I can't get my head around why you would object on a personal level. NorthernGent

meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 4:35:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent popeye, Fair enough. Socialism is an international movement - it crosses national boundaries so in that respect I could appear to be a Socialist. I can assure you I have values that mark me out as not being socialist. I am in Britain what we call "Old Labour". I believe in hard work, enterprise but also a level playing-field i.e. giving everyone the same opportunity. Also, when someone is having a hard time with life I don't believe in writing them off - society has a duty to care for all of it's citizens. Coming from an old Labour northern background myself, I have to admit to not being able to get out of the place quick enough. I failed to notice any level playing field or efforts by the local establishment to make one but what I did notice was a class ridden and corrupt old Labour Party whose mafia was always in power by default because people blindly voted for them. It was all very depressing. Now they have a corrupt New Labour Party with many of the faces of Old Labour having bought new suits. All smacked of a little bit east European to me.

Level -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/15/2006 4:37:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent popeye, Fair enough. Socialism is an international movement - it crosses national boundaries so in that respect I could appear to be a Socialist. I can assure you I have values that mark me out as not being socialist. I am in Britain what we call "Old Labour". I believe in hard work, enterprise but also a level playing-field i.e. giving everyone the same opportunity. Also, when someone is having a hard time with life I don't believe in writing them off - society has a duty to care for all of it's citizens. Your point about someone being in the US illegally - I always find this baffling - why does it matter if immigrants are legal or illegal? If some fella in the US is trying to earn a living in a state miles from you what is the big deal? I could understand if you object to Government exploitation but I can't get my head around why you would object on a personal level. NorthernGent It's a respect for the rule of law on one hand. Exploitation, as you mentioned, is another (and not by the government).

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