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Zonie63 -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/16/2014 9:01:40 AM)
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ORIGINAL: njlauren
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ORIGINAL: Zonie63
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ORIGINAL: njlauren
It is funny, people of Faith, especially Christians, go on and on about how the Church and faith shaped western civilization, was so influential on the shaping of our civilization, how "God fearing Christian men" founded the US, yet suddenly when it comes to the darkness that was the holocaust, it was like "don't blame Christianity, don't blame the church", and that is an utter bullshit copout.
I would not credit Christianity with shaping Western Civilization, nor would I blame Christianity for its failures and atrocities - at least not entirely. I'm definitely a critic of religion and Christianity, but I also try to guard against unfairly singling them out or scapegoating Christians as a group. As I suggested in an earlier post, politicians will use religion or whatever philosophical ideal they can latch onto to gain power, wealth, etc. The Holocaust was more the result of malignant nationalism, which has some significant ideological conflicts with religion.
Western civilization was shaped by many things, starting with the Ancient Greeks, the Romans, but Christianity became the predominant force in western europe and its various facets were closely tied in with how things evolved,up until the reformation there was no such thing as a split between nation and state, the political and the religious were tied. Likewise, in terms of education, until the 18th century all the universities and schools were tied to religion, when Newton was at Cambridge he became ordained Clergy, there was no separation. When the church decided someone was blasphemous, they turned the person over to the civic authorities to be punished (I love when Catholics tell me "the church didn't punish people, civic authorities did".........like, who do you think accused them?). Christianity in its many forms did, the political reformations of the enlightenment, of people like Locke and Rousseau, in large part came about when the protestant split happened, and the idea that a person had the direct connection to God, rather than needing church and clergy, also led to the idea of a ruler's power coming to him through the people, who in turn had been blessed by God; whereas the dominant thought before the reformation, preached by the church, was that Rulers got their power through God directly and ruled by divine intervention (divine right of Kings), so the changes in Christianity affected western civilization. The ideas of charity that run through western civilization (and don't exist, for example, as strongly in cultures like Japan and China, whose dominant religions do not preach as strongly protecting the weak and poor) came from Christian belief. Christianity was tied up heavily in education, with the universities and such, private universities only started coming about in the 19th century, secular univerisities, so religion influenced so many things, and in Europe it was Christianity.
I wouldn't deny any of the above, although I noticed that you specified "western Europe" where Christianity was influential. I'm curious as to why you would not include central or eastern Europe in your analysis.
Europeans did not automatically convert to Christianity; it was a long process which took centuries before all of Europe was Christianized. Christianity itself had to compromise and make deals in order to please the masses enough so that they would convert, which is part of the reason we celebrate Christmas and Easter, which carry elements from old Pagan beliefs. It's also why Christians are allowed to eat pork, even though their religious scriptures clearly say it's forbidden.
So, it might be more a chicken-egg question, whether Christianity influenced Europe or whether it was the other way around. When we have pictures of Christianity's Savior who looks like a white guy from northern Europe, it makes one wonder where the "influence" actually comes from.
Ironically, when you really look at it, Christianity is really nothing more than a sect of Judaism, not a completely separate religion.
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As far as the holocaust, calling it nationalism is true, but also very, very not the whole picture. The holocaust came about because the Jews were blamed for the loss in WWI, that the Germans were a superior nation of superior people and the only way they lost, they were betrayed; but what that leaves out is why the Jews were singled out, why it became about them primarily. The nationalism is a no brainer, William Manchester in his "Arms of Krupp" points out that after Germany unified after smashing the French in 1870, the Germans, after centuries of being the whipping boy of europe, the weak sister, suddenly rallied around the Prussians and adopted this idea of being 'superior', an illusion that came crashing to the ground in 1918. The allies stupidly did not occupy Germany (one of the biggest mistakes in history), so the military, trying to cover their asses, told people "we were never occupied, we never lost, we were betrayed")..and guess who was responsible? Right, the Jews, and want to know what was commonly said."Well, how could we ever trust the Jews, after all it was the Jews who betrayed our Savior".....the fact that they were looking for a scapegoat is nationalism, the fact they turned to the Jews as the scapegoat was long held anti semitism, and much of that came from the support the churches gave to anti semitism.
Again, I wouldn't deny that some of this is at work, although there were other influences operating in Germany at the time. For example, you mentioned above that Christianity preached charity and helping the weak and poor, although German philosophers such as Nietzsche were decidedly against the idea of helping the weak and poor. In past eras, the religious authorities tried to rule over multiple nations at once - as a guiding, overriding international influence, yet the rise of nationalistic ideals were running counter to that. Concurrently, liberalism, capitalism, and socialism also appealed to those who had grown weary of religious despotism.
There were also political divisions. It didn't matter whether they believed in the same religion or not, they still had the same political squabbles over land and wealth which would have existed under any religion or no religion. The religion may be used as a pretext or an excuse for violence, persecution, and murder, but it may not be the actual root cause of the problem. There had been violence and murder in Europe and elsewhere before anyone even heard of Christianity, so the explanation as to the cause must lie elsewhere.
I agree with your analysis of Germany's unification and rise of nationalism leading to WW1, although I'm a bit perplexed that you seem to minimize its influence by saying it's "very, very not the whole picture." I agree it's not the whole picture, but I think it's a larger part of it. The reason I can't blame the religion entirely is because there were many times and places where Jewish people were treated better, even though they were still living under Christian governments and in Christian-majority countries.
I don't see anything about Christianity that requires its adherents to be anti-Semitic, and in many European societies, many Jews had reached positions of respectability, education, science, industry, finance, art, music - including Germany, where they made enormous contributions. They thought they had assimilated and that they were accepted in that society, even though it was Christian and even though there was some measure of anti-Semitism. They believed that they were still German citizens with rights, but once Hitler rose to power, that all changed.
Hitler's own religious views were somewhat vague - not exactly "Christian," and they were likely heading in a direction which would have taken them to their pre-Christian pagan religions. He considered Christianity to be a "Jewish religion," and his anti-Semitism was so strong that, had he succeeded in his objectives, it would have logically meant the elimination of Christianity as well, due to its Jewish origins. I think there were some attempts to set up a "National Socialist Church" of some kind, although I don't think that really caught on too well.
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