RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


Musicmystery -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/10/2014 10:24:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

The other factor here is that the victim was a white woman who was the shooter's girlfriend. Jurors and law enforcement officers are more sympathetic to white women, and the fact that it was his girlfriend negates most of the bases for "reasonable fear."

I like Bama's point, namely, how can you shoot someone whom you have not identified and who is in the bathroom behind a closed door. An intruder is not likely to head to the bathroom while committing a B&E.

Your examples of other shootings by men with law enforcement backgrounds were just --- (I don't have the words.)

And each one shot his own son. But he saw the target!




tweakabelle -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/10/2014 11:56:03 PM)

quote:

BamaD
Please explain how knowing how to use a butcher knife keeps someone from losing their temper and using
them against a loved one .
Explain to me how knowing how to use a butcher knife keeps someone from using them to "solve"
interpersonal problems.


A far more pertinent question is:

Explain to me how someone armed only with a butcher's knife could have used that weapon to get past a locked door and kill his victim sight unseen?

The argument being put to you is that easy access to guns facilitates crimes and murders. No one is arguing that guns in and of themselves cause crimes and murders.

In this particular case (as in the case of the cinema shooting discussed on another thread recently) easy access to a weapon during a stressful episode was the difference between common assault and a homicide. In all probability, had no firearm been present, the victims would still be alive today.

It would strengthen your case if you could choose to address the argument being put to you rather than opting to resort to misleading and mischevious strawman-type rebuttals.




Kithra -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/11/2014 1:06:21 AM)

Speaking purely on the specifics of this case, I do believe an argument could be made that owning a gun was contributory to the end result. Without a firearm, I think that it would have been a lot more difficult to harm Ms. Steenkamp through the closed and locked door. At the very least, there would have had to be a longer delay between thought and action. That delay might have allowed Pistorius to reconsider his actions (or he might have gotten angrier/more afraid. It's hard to tell which way it would have gone).




thishereboi -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/11/2014 7:17:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Still if he had used two brain cells he could have avoided this.


You think this South African should behave in a smarter way than the trigger happy Americans you constantly defend? There are many cases in the U.S. where if the shooter had just had two brain cells the death of an innocent person could have been avoided. What's different here that you are singing such a different song? So do you think Americans just lack brain cells to begin with, so there should be no expectation of proper thinking during confrontations in the U.S.? How sad that you have such a low opinion of Americans. [&:]


Which trigger happy american shot someone through a door? I think I missed that thread.




thishereboi -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/11/2014 7:25:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

If he wanted to murder his gf he would have found a way, you have displayed another symptom of gunaphobia,
namely the believe that murder flows from the instrument(if it is a firearm) rather than from the decision to kill.
You are not talking about this case (though I admit you think you are) but rather are trying to use this case to
promote you anti guns in the U S agenda. This case is no more than a stalking horse for you.



I am implying nothing of the sort. I am saying, based on the facts in front of us, she would not have been dead if there was no gun in the house. End of story. A gun culture promotes gun deaths.

You are the one who keeps raising the U.S. I am talking about SOUTH AFRICA where this case occurred.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/60561/18-people-get-murdered-every-day-in-south-africa-now-tell-me-how-guns-don-t-kill-people


So you are saying that the only reason he wanted to kill her was because he had a gun and could? Or are you saying that if he hadn't had a gun, he still would have wanted her dead but would not have been able to come up with another way to do it? Sorry but I am having a hard time believing that one. My guess is if he hadn't had a gun, she would have ended up slipping in the bathtub or something like that.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/11/2014 7:57:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Go back and read you were obsessed with my stand on American cases.
And to blame an inanimate object is irrational.

Uh no. I was talking about self defense with an intruder in the earlier posts NOT guns. And then I clearly stated: Now, of course, this is all somewhat moot, because the actual facts of this case don't support an intruder. I then also posted about a plausible motive for him being ANGRY at his gf.

Only after that did I start discussing how unfortunate it was that there was a gun in the house because under these set of facts: no intruder, argument with gf, they both would have been better off without a gun in the house. And I stand by that statement.

Guess you forgot this

"You think this South African should behave in a smarter way than the trigger
happy Americans you constantly defend? There are many cases in the U.S.
where if the shooter had just had two brain cells the death of an innocent person
could have been avoided. What's different here that you are singing such a different song?
So do you think Americans just lack brain cells to begin with, so there should be no expectation
of proper thinking during confrontations in the U.S.? How sad that you have such a low opinion of Americans."
"


Uh, that was post 17 and that was discussing SELF DEFENSE. Since post 25 I have not been talking about SELF DEFENSE because I learned more facts about the case and this is NOT a case about an intruder. Go back and read the thread and the posts IN ORDER. Since post 25 I have been talking about the facts at hand and about guns.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/11/2014 8:01:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

So you are saying that the only reason he wanted to kill her was because he had a gun and could? Or are you saying that if he hadn't had a gun, he still would have wanted her dead but would not have been able to come up with another way to do it? Sorry but I am having a hard time believing that one. My guess is if he hadn't had a gun, she would have ended up slipping in the bathtub or something like that.


She had two phones in the bathroom with her and could have easily called the police for help. Obviously she didn't think he would shoot her through the door. Something only a gun is capable of doing. How would he have killed her through the locked door without a gun? Is there another weapon you are thinking of? What does slipping in the bathtub have to do with this when she was locked in the bathroom by herself? Are you now saying she committed suicide?




Lucylastic -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/11/2014 8:09:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Still if he had used two brain cells he could have avoided this.


You think this South African should behave in a smarter way than the trigger happy Americans you constantly defend? There are many cases in the U.S. where if the shooter had just had two brain cells the death of an innocent person could have been avoided. What's different here that you are singing such a different song? So do you think Americans just lack brain cells to begin with, so there should be no expectation of proper thinking during confrontations in the U.S.? How sad that you have such a low opinion of Americans. [&:]




Which trigger happy american shot someone through a door? I think I missed that thread.


I brought it up several times in a couple of threads, but it was ignored by the gun nuts
http://news.yahoo.com/man-shot-woman-porch-face-murder-trial-162441065.html
edited to add link from one of them
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4650810
not a thread....I saw the disinterest and thought what point was there to start a whole thread on it
disinterest in facts in one thread is enough.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/11/2014 8:13:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Yes. I don't see any possible defense for Pistrious, he is either stupid beyond belief (negligent homicide)
or a cold blooded sob (murder)


He is neither. Pistorius is not a stupid man, and no one would describe him as such. Nothing in his bio suggests stupid.

From Wiki:

quote:

Oscar Pistorius was born to Henke and Sheila Pistorius on 22 November 1986 in Sandton, Johannesburg, in what was then Transvaal Province (now Gauteng Province) of South Africa.[1] He grew up in a Christian home,[10] and has an elder brother, Carl, and a younger sister, Aimée.[11][12] Pistorius credits his mother, who died at the age of 43 when Pistorius was 15 years old, as a major influence in his life.[13][14] He is a white South African with Italian ancestry from his mother's grandfather, an Italian emigrant to Kenya.[15][16]
Pistorius was born with fibular hemimelia (congenital absence of the fibula) in both legs. When he was 11 months old, his legs were amputated halfway between his knees and ankles.[3] He attended Constantia Kloof Primary School[17] and Pretoria Boys High School,[1][18] where he played rugby union in the school's third XV team.[19] He played water polo and tennis at provincial level between the ages of 11 and 13.[19] In addition, Pistorius took part in club Olympic wrestling,[19][20][21] and trained at Jannie Brooks's garage gym in Pretoria, South Africa.[22] After a serious rugby knee injury in June 2003, he was introduced to running in January 2004 while undergoing rehabilitation at the University of Pretoria's High Performance Centre[23] with coach Ampie Louw, and "never looked back".[19] His first racing blades were fitted by South African prosthetist Francois van der Watt. Because he was unable to find suitable running blades in Pretoria, van der Watt ordered some to be made by a local engineer. However, as these quickly broke, van der Watt referred Pistorius to American prosthetist and Paralympic sprinter Brian Frasure to be fitted for blades by Icelandic company Össur.[24][25]
Pistorius began studying for a Bachelor of Commerce (B.Com.)[11] in business management with sports science at the University of Pretoria in 2006.[19][20][26] In a June 2008 interview for his University's website, he joked: "I won't graduate soon. With all the training I have had to cut down on my subjects. Hopefully I'll finish by the time I'm 30!"[11] Asked by a journalist for his "sporting motto", he said: "You're not disabled by the disabilities you have, you are able by the abilities you have."[19]


In addition, a killing in the midst of a heated argument as it was does not meet the definition of killing in cold blood. Killing in cold blood implies with intention, but also without emotion.

This man is a very angry man. An angry man with a gun is dangerous. An angry man with a gun having an argument with his gf who he suspects of seeing someone else is obviously extremely dangerous. Cold-blooded? Hardly. He was very, very angry when he pulled that trigger. He was not thinking straight. And that's one of the reasons why it saddens me that there was a gun in the house. This is a man who started vomiting when the coroner described the fatal wounds in court. I don't think he ever would have stabbed her, or beaten her to a pulp. But a gun? A gun in his hand, and he is angry and she is behind a locked door. Soooooo very easy to just pull the trigger in the heat of the moment. So very easy…..[sm=2cents.gif]




lovmuffin -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/11/2014 8:15:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

FR

Someone explain to me how a gun in the home made Pistorius and his gf safer that night.

Someone explain to me how owning and knowing how to use a gun keeps people from losing their temper and shooting a loved one.

Someone explain to me how owning and knowing how to use a gun keeps people from using a gun to solve interpersonal disputes. [sm=2cents.gif]


1) It doesn't, Pistorius is a wack job who discharged his weapon in public places twice in the past without provication. He shouldn't possess guns. What's your point ?

2) It doesn't, what's your point ?

3) it doesn't, what's your point ?




thishereboi -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/11/2014 8:24:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Still if he had used two brain cells he could have avoided this.


You think this South African should behave in a smarter way than the trigger happy Americans you constantly defend? There are many cases in the U.S. where if the shooter had just had two brain cells the death of an innocent person could have been avoided. What's different here that you are singing such a different song? So do you think Americans just lack brain cells to begin with, so there should be no expectation of proper thinking during confrontations in the U.S.? How sad that you have such a low opinion of Americans. [&:]




Which trigger happy american shot someone through a door? I think I missed that thread.


I brought it up several times in a couple of threads, but it was ignored by the gun nuts
http://news.yahoo.com/man-shot-woman-porch-face-murder-trial-162441065.html
edited to add link from one of them
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4650810
not a thread....I saw the disinterest and thought what point was there to start a whole thread on it
disinterest in facts in one thread is enough.


I remember that, both the incident and your post. I also remembered that no one had commented on it and was kind of disgusted with myself for not doing so. That is why I was confused when she implied that he had defended someone like that. I thought maybe there had been a thread I had missed.


And since you brought it up again I just want to say that I hope they lock the bastard up. His defense against the racism charge was that he couldn't see her and didn't know she was black. So I have to ask...why the fuck would you shoot someone you can't see? And I guess in this case it would be the same question.




Lucylastic -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/11/2014 8:26:17 AM)

nope ...i also mentioned it here
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4582517
but as the king of gun threads has me on ignore, it went over his head




thishereboi -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/11/2014 8:30:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

nope ...i also mentioned it here
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4582517
but as the king of gun threads has me on ignore, it went over his head



Yes you did and no one defended him there either so I guess I didn't miss anything after all.




tweakabelle -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/11/2014 10:28:50 PM)

quote:

BamaD
If he wanted to murder his gf he would have found a way.


I have heard and seen this glib rationalisation repeated many times in gun threads. This claim is utter nonsense.

We have no way of knowing whether Pistorius would still have killed Ms Steenhagen had guns had been absent from the scenario - therefore we have no factual basis on which to mount a claim such as this.

Even if some basis could be established for this claim, would it apply to lovers' quarrels such as this case? I suspect not. It might apply to cold blooded murders - gangland killings, carefully planned murders, murders for profit or gain etc. - but not to crimes of passion.

Crimes of passion occur during short frantic bursts of uncontrollable passion and aggression, often followed by the deep remorse Pistorius is currently displaying. It seems to me that it is far more likely that, as occurs in most cases of lovers' quarrels, the murderous rage would dissipate after a few minutes. If the killer has no access to lethal weapons during their rage, the chances of them still murdering their lover after their rage has subsided are correspondingly far lower.

A violent lover's quarrel is one scenario that explains the known facts in the Pistorius case. The most plausible assertion seems to me to be that, had Pistorius had no access to lethal firearms, there would have been no murder. The locked door would have protected the girl until such time Pistorius' rage cooled off and she felt it safe to leave the bathroom.

This seems to be a clear case of the presence of lethal guns faciilitating murder, and as such, compelling evidence for controlling access to firearms.





lovmuffin -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/11/2014 10:41:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

nope ...i also mentioned it here
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4582517
but as the king of gun threads has me on ignore, it went over his head



I would never ignore you[;)]




lovmuffin -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/11/2014 10:51:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

BamaD
If he wanted to murder his gf he would have found a way.


I have heard and seen this glib rationalisation repeated many times in gun threads. This claim is utter nonsense.

We have no way of knowing whether Pistorius would still have killed Ms Steenhagen had guns had been absent from the scenario - therefore we have no factual basis on which to mount a claim such as this.

Even if some basis could be established for this claim, would it apply to lovers' quarrels such as this case? I suspect not. It might apply to cold blooded murders - gangland killings, carefully planned murders, murders for profit or gain etc. - but not to crimes of passion.

Crimes of passion occur during short frantic bursts of uncontrollable passion and aggression, often followed by the deep remorse Pistorius is currently displaying. It seems to me that it is far more likely that, as occurs in most cases of lovers' quarrels, the murderous rage would dissipate after a few minutes. If the killer has no access to lethal weapons during their rage, the chances of them still murdering their lover after their rage has subsided are correspondingly far lower.

A violent lover's quarrel is one scenario that explains the known facts in the Pistorius case. The most plausible assertion seems to me to be that, had Pistorius had no access to lethal firearms, there would have been no murder. The locked door would have protected the girl until such time Pistorius' rage cooled off and she felt it safe to leave the bathroom.

This seems to be a clear case of the presence of lethal guns faciilitating murder, and as such, compelling evidence for controlling access to firearms.



But you can't say for sure he wouldn't have found another way either. I think we can all agree this was a freakin murder and this idiot shouldn't have had possession of any firearms. In effect, his life is over.

FR and off topic but did you see that Vandersloot guy on the news ? He doesn't look so well. He's got 24 years to go in one of the most notorious prisons in the world before he's extradited to the US to face fraud charges.




tweakabelle -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/11/2014 11:47:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


But you can't say for sure he wouldn't have found another way either.

So what?

I am saying that the claim is nonsense, irrelevant conjecture at best. It's sole purpose is to obscure and confuse.

If you go along with the lovers' quarrel scenario, then it is clear that Pistorius' easy access to weapons enabled him to get past the locked door and shoot whoever was on the other side of it. Would he have behaved in the same hot blooded fashion after a wait of 5, 10 or 15 minutes? There's no way of knowing for sure but it seems quite unlikely to me.

Unless you can come up with a more plausible scenario, then this case is compelling evidence that easy access to guns facilitates murders and therefore access to guns should be limited.




lovmuffin -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 12:04:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


But you can't say for sure he wouldn't have found another way either.

So what?

I am saying that the claim is nonsense, irrelevant conjecture at best. It's sole purpose is to obscure and confuse.

If you go along with the lovers' quarrel scenario, then it is clear that Pistorius' easy access to weapons enabled him to get past the locked door and shoot whoever was on the other side of it. Would he have behaved in the same hot blooded fashion after a wait of 5, 10 or 15 minutes? There's no way of knowing for sure but it seems quite unlikely to me.

Unless you can come up with a more plausible scenario, then this case is compelling evidence that easy access to guns facilitates murders and therefore access to guns should be limited.


Limited to who ? If you guys over there want to limit guns then who am I to criticize ? I thought guns in South Africa were strictly regulated. I don't know what he was doing with one. I think some of you anti gun folks here are trying to apply some kind of logic to compare things that happen over here. So, what are you suggesting in regard to firearms availability and what limits are you talking about ?




tweakabelle -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 1:07:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


But you can't say for sure he wouldn't have found another way either.

So what?

I am saying that the claim is nonsense, irrelevant conjecture at best. It's sole purpose is to obscure and confuse.

If you go along with the lovers' quarrel scenario, then it is clear that Pistorius' easy access to weapons enabled him to get past the locked door and shoot whoever was on the other side of it. Would he have behaved in the same hot blooded fashion after a wait of 5, 10 or 15 minutes? There's no way of knowing for sure but it seems quite unlikely to me.

Unless you can come up with a more plausible scenario, then this case is compelling evidence that easy access to guns facilitates murders and therefore access to guns should be limited.


Limited to who ? If you guys over there want to limit guns then who am I to criticize ? I thought guns in South Africa were strictly regulated. I don't know what he was doing with one. I think some of you anti gun folks here are trying to apply some kind of logic to compare things that happen over here. So, what are you suggesting in regard to firearms availability and what limits are you talking about ?

I see that you are no longer contesting my conclusion that " this case is compelling evidence that easy access to guns facilitates murders". Does this silence indicate that you have conceded the point and that you agree? This conclusion is a general one ie it is not limited to any particular place or culture.

In the light of this knowledge, what action(s) should the US take to limit the availability of guns to those who would endanger others?




lovmuffin -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 1:26:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


But you can't say for sure he wouldn't have found another way either.

So what?

I am saying that the claim is nonsense, irrelevant conjecture at best. It's sole purpose is to obscure and confuse.

If you go along with the lovers' quarrel scenario, then it is clear that Pistorius' easy access to weapons enabled him to get past the locked door and shoot whoever was on the other side of it. Would he have behaved in the same hot blooded fashion after a wait of 5, 10 or 15 minutes? There's no way of knowing for sure but it seems quite unlikely to me.

Unless you can come up with a more plausible scenario, then this case is compelling evidence that easy access to guns facilitates murders and therefore access to guns should be limited.


Limited to who ? If you guys over there want to limit guns then who am I to criticize ? I thought guns in South Africa were strictly regulated. I don't know what he was doing with one. I think some of you anti gun folks here are trying to apply some kind of logic to compare things that happen over here. So, what are you suggesting in regard to firearms availability and what limits are you talking about ?

I see that you are no longer contesting my conclusion that " this case is compelling evidence that easy access to guns facilitates murders". Does this silence indicate that you have conceded the point and that you agree? This conclusion is a general one ie it is not limited to any particular place or culture.

In the light of this knowledge, what action(s) should the US take to limit the availability of guns to those who would endanger others?


Certainly guns make it easier to kill. That doesn't mean I want some kind of Obama/Biden/Clinton flavor of gun control in the US nor would I think any of it would curtail gun availability. And I don't necessarily agree that this psycho asshole in his rage wouldn't have kicked in the bathroom door and fucked her up. It seems to me that she should have been the one packin heat.

And yes, what action(s) do you think the US should take to limit the availability of guns to those who would endanger others? Not that I'll agree but I'm curious.




Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.0625