RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend

RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (Full Version)

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thishereboi -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 5:51:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin But you can't say for sure he wouldn't have found another way either. So what? I am saying that the claim is nonsense, irrelevant conjecture at best. It's sole purpose is to obscure and confuse. If you go along with the lovers' quarrel scenario, then it is clear that Pistorius' easy access to weapons enabled him to get past the locked door and shoot whoever was on the other side of it. Would he have behaved in the same hot blooded fashion after a wait of 5, 10 or 15 minutes? There's no way of knowing for sure but it seems quite unlikely to me. Unless you can come up with a more plausible scenario, then this case is compelling evidence that easy access to guns facilitates murders and therefore access to guns should be limited. Limited to who ? If you guys over there want to limit guns then who am I to criticize ? I thought guns in South Africa were strictly regulated. I don't know what he was doing with one. I think some of you anti gun folks here are trying to apply some kind of logic to compare things that happen over here. So, what are you suggesting in regard to firearms availability and what limits are you talking about ? I see that you are no longer contesting my conclusion that " this case is compelling evidence that easy access to guns facilitates murders". Does this silence indicate that you have conceded the point and that you agree? This conclusion is a general one ie it is not limited to any particular place or culture. In the light of this knowledge, what action(s) should the US take to limit the availability of guns to those who would endanger others? His silence could mean he conceded the point or it could mean he has come to realize there is not point in arguing it since you seem to have made your mind up already. So are you going to answer his questions?

chatterbox24 -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 5:57:53 AM)
I have followed this story somewhat. What I have a hard time believing, is he was that out of his mind with fear? For someone who has been through what he has been, climbing the mountain he did with his disability, and having that much fear, does not make sense. I do not believe his story.

tweakabelle -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 6:05:29 AM)
The NRA and gun industry has succeeding in creating the myth that guns are central to US culture, freedom and history. It seems to me that that this myth needs to be challenged and reconsidered before any serious attempts at gun control and reducing gun violence will work in the USA. Other countries have similar levels of gun ownership without the attendant violence seen in the USA. To me this suggests that there is something in the culture/mythology of the US that feeds into the high rates of gun violence. Putting it crudely, somehow this enables or authorises Americans to reach for the gun as a solution much faster than citizens of other countries. In the meantime, I would be looking at measures that remove guns from the public sphere in urban areas. If guns are being used for home protection, there's no need for them to leave the house. Similarly if guns are being used for sporting purposes, there's no need to bandy them around the city is there? So I would be looking at measures that remove guns from daily life in urban areas, measures that would mean anyone toting a gun in an urban environment would need a substantial reason for doing so or face penalties.

chatterbox24 -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 6:18:23 AM)
Some people just don't have sense God have a goose. Hair brain tempers, paranoid fear, right wing fighters and boom peoples life changed forever. I believe people do have a right to protect themselves. But people walking around with guns in a holster, guns in the glove box is a bit SCAREY to say the least. I have a friend who has complete road rage, gets up on peoples tails, blows the horn, and drives ridiculously herself PERIOD. I said you need to stop it, one day you will tail gate and blow your horn at the wrong person on a bad day and they are going to settle it with rage, except their rage will stop it permenantly if you do not.

cloudboy -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 11:43:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The NRA and gun industry has succeeding in creating the myth that guns are central to US culture, freedom and history. It seems to me that that this myth needs to be challenged and reconsidered before any serious attempts at gun control and reducing gun violence will work in the USA. Other countries have similar levels of gun ownership without the attendant violence seen in the USA. To me this suggests that there is something in the culture/mythology of the US that feeds into the high rates of gun violence. Putting it crudely, somehow this enables or authorises Americans to reach for the gun as a solution much faster than citizens of other countries. In the meantime, I would be looking at measures that remove guns from the public sphere in urban areas. If guns are being used for home protection, there's no need for them to leave the house. Similarly if guns are being used for sporting purposes, there's no need to bandy them around the city is there? So I would be looking at measures that remove guns from daily life in urban areas, measures that would mean anyone toting a gun in an urban environment would need a substantial reason for doing so or face penalties. In the US political system, a small fanatical minority can control a national policy. The NRA is a text book example uniting manufactures and gun owners around the Second Amendment whereas there's no such body or motivation to argue otherwise on behalf of the general population.

BamaD -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 11:47:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The NRA and gun industry has succeeding in creating the myth that guns are central to US culture, freedom and history. It seems to me that that this myth needs to be challenged and reconsidered before any serious attempts at gun control and reducing gun violence will work in the USA. Other countries have similar levels of gun ownership without the attendant violence seen in the USA. To me this suggests that there is something in the culture/mythology of the US that feeds into the high rates of gun violence. Putting it crudely, somehow this enables or authorises Americans to reach for the gun as a solution much faster than citizens of other countries. In the meantime, I would be looking at measures that remove guns from the public sphere in urban areas. If guns are being used for home protection, there's no need for them to leave the house. Similarly if guns are being used for sporting purposes, there's no need to bandy them around the city is there? So I would be looking at measures that remove guns from daily life in urban areas, measures that would mean anyone toting a gun in an urban environment would need a substantial reason for doing so or face penalties. In the US political system, a small fanatical minority can control a national policy. The NRA is a text book example uniting manufactures and gun owners around the Second Amendment whereas there's no such body or motivation to argue otherwise on behalf of the general population. Have you heard of the Bloomberg group, or handgun control? They are vehemently anti gun. Of course I am inclined to think that anyone protecting Constitutional rights is standing up for the people.

accublond -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 12:01:19 PM)
Of course this is pretty much the system we had -- or were moving towards -- in this country for over a century, until the NRA and the Supreme Court convinced folks that somehow urban governments offended the constitution by setting reasonable firearm carry rules within their respective jurisdictions. But, it's a good compromise and I imagine when things calm down we'll get back to it... ==================================================================== quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The NRA and gun industry has succeeding in creating the myth that guns are central to US culture, freedom and history. It seems to me that that this myth needs to be challenged and reconsidered before any serious attempts at gun control and reducing gun violence will work in the USA. Other countries have similar levels of gun ownership without the attendant violence seen in the USA. To me this suggests that there is something in the culture/mythology of the US that feeds into the high rates of gun violence. Putting it crudely, somehow this enables or authorises Americans to reach for the gun as a solution much faster than citizens of other countries. In the meantime, I would be looking at measures that remove guns from the public sphere in urban areas. If guns are being used for home protection, there's no need for them to leave the house. Similarly if guns are being used for sporting purposes, there's no need to bandy them around the city is there? So I would be looking at measures that remove guns from daily life in urban areas, measures that would mean anyone toting a gun in an urban environment would need a substantial reason for doing so or face penalties.

PyrotheClown -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 12:06:08 PM)
is it fucked up that I'm amused at the fact that he may have been missing legs,but he was fully armed irony is a bitch sometimes

BamaD -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 3:41:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: accublond Of course this is pretty much the system we had -- or were moving towards -- in this country for over a century, until the NRA and the Supreme Court convinced folks that somehow urban governments offended the constitution by setting reasonable firearm carry rules within their respective jurisdictions. But, it's a good compromise and I imagine when things calm down we'll get back to it... ==================================================================== quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The NRA and gun industry has succeeding in creating the myth that guns are central to US culture, freedom and history. It seems to me that that this myth needs to be challenged and reconsidered before any serious attempts at gun control and reducing gun violence will work in the USA. Other countries have similar levels of gun ownership without the attendant violence seen in the USA. To me this suggests that there is something in the culture/mythology of the US that feeds into the high rates of gun violence. Putting it crudely, somehow this enables or authorises Americans to reach for the gun as a solution much faster than citizens of other countries. In the meantime, I would be looking at measures that remove guns from the public sphere in urban areas. If guns are being used for home protection, there's no need for them to leave the house. Similarly if guns are being used for sporting purposes, there's no need to bandy them around the city is there? So I would be looking at measures that remove guns from daily life in urban areas, measures that would mean anyone toting a gun in an urban environment would need a substantial reason for doing so or face penalties. Reasonable restrictions like the outright bans in D C and Chicago and the virtual ban in NYC? Those were not compromises they were an outright disregard for the Constitution.

BamaD -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 4:06:22 PM)
I remember, early in this thread, being chided for pointing out that this incident was being used as a stalking horse to promote gun control in the U S. Anyone with the gall to repeat that?

lovmuffin -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 4:16:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The NRA and gun industry has succeeding in creating the myth that guns are central to US culture, freedom and history. It seems to me that that this myth needs to be challenged and reconsidered before any serious attempts at gun control and reducing gun violence will work in the USA. "The gun has played a critical role in history, an invention that has been praised and denounced......served hero and villain alike.....and carries with it a moral responsibility. To understand the gun is to better understand history." The History Channel, Tales Of The Gun

lovmuffin -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 4:36:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The NRA and gun industry has succeeding in creating the myth that guns are central to US culture, freedom and history. It seems to me that that this myth needs to be challenged and reconsidered before any serious attempts at gun control and reducing gun violence will work in the USA. I challenge you to a duel[sm=blasted.gif] Pistols or swords ?

lovmuffin -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 4:55:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy In the US political system, a small fanatical minority can control a national policy. The NRA is a text book example uniting manufactures and gun owners around the Second Amendment whereas there's no such body or motivation to argue otherwise on behalf of the general population. In the US political system, a small fanatical minority can wipe out precious constitutional rights. Groups such as handgun control and liberal democrats are text book examples herding their flocks of sheep over the cliff in quest of their utopian vision. Though there is a body with the motivation to argue otherwise on behalf of gun owners and the liberty and freedom loving general public. That organization is the NRA. There, I fixed it for ya.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 5:06:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy In the US political system, a small fanatical minority can control a national policy. The NRA is a text book example uniting manufactures and gun owners around the Second Amendment whereas there's no such body or motivation to argue otherwise on behalf of the general population. In the US political system, a small fanatical minority can wipe out precious constitutional rights. Groups such as handgun control and liberal democrats are text book examples herding their flocks of sheep over the cliff in quest of their utopian vision. Though there is a body with the motivation to argue otherwise on behalf of gun owners and the liberty and freedom loving general public. That organization is the NRA. There, I fixed it for ya. Hey, I'll take utopian vision over gun-toting anarchy any day of the week…...[:D] quote: ".....if you take all the guns off the street you still will have a crime problem, whereas if you take the criminals off the street you cannot have a gun problem.” Jeff Cooper Was Pistorius a criminal before this incident? I didn't realize that about him. ETA to add second comment.

MercTech -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 5:07:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The NRA and gun industry has succeeding in creating the myth that guns are central to US culture, freedom and history. It seems to me that that this myth needs to be challenged and reconsidered before any serious attempts at gun control and reducing gun violence will work in the USA. Nope. The right to keep and bear arms pre-dates the founding of the NRA in 1871 by the better part of a century. http://www.nrahq.org/history.asp quote: Other countries have similar levels of gun ownership without the attendant violence seen in the USA. To me this suggests that there is something in the culture/mythology of the US that feeds into the high rates of gun violence. Putting it crudely, somehow this enables or authorises Americans to reach for the gun as a solution much faster than citizens of other countries. The reporting in the popular press certainly makes it seem that way to a casual observer. Remember, FUD sells! (FUD - Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) quote: In the meantime, I would be looking at measures that remove guns from the public sphere in urban areas. If guns are being used for home protection, there's no need for them to leave the house. Similarly if guns are being used for sporting purposes, there's no need to bandy them around the city is there? So I would be looking at measures that remove guns from daily life in urban areas, measures that would mean anyone toting a gun in an urban environment would need a substantial reason for doing so or face penalties. That has been done. And the homicide rate goes up with more restrictive firearms bans. Please note, I keep mentioning the "homicide" rate not the "use of firearm" rate. If you look at the number of homicides, the U.S. U.K. and Australia have very similar homicide rates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate Yet, the U.S. has the highest per capita gun ownership of anywhere in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country If lawful gun owners were the slavering maniacs the anti-firearm lobby and the sensationalist press would have you believe I think our homicide rate would not be comparable to countries like the U.K. or Australia who have very restrictive firearm controls. If I offend anyone by presenting facts after you have made up your mind, I apologize.

epiphiny43 -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 5:50:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The NRA and gun industry has succeeding in creating the myth that guns are central to US culture, freedom and history. It seems to me that that this myth needs to be challenged and reconsidered before any serious attempts at gun control and reducing gun violence will work in the USA. Nope. The right to keep and bear arms pre-dates the founding of the NRA in 1871 by the better part of a century. http://www.nrahq.org/history.asp quote: Other countries have similar levels of gun ownership without the attendant violence seen in the USA. To me this suggests that there is something in the culture/mythology of the US that feeds into the high rates of gun violence. Putting it crudely, somehow this enables or authorises Americans to reach for the gun as a solution much faster than citizens of other countries. The reporting in the popular press certainly makes it seem that way to a casual observer. Remember, FUD sells! (FUD - Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) quote: In the meantime, I would be looking at measures that remove guns from the public sphere in urban areas. If guns are being used for home protection, there's no need for them to leave the house. Similarly if guns are being used for sporting purposes, there's no need to bandy them around the city is there? So I would be looking at measures that remove guns from daily life in urban areas, measures that would mean anyone toting a gun in an urban environment would need a substantial reason for doing so or face penalties. .... Yet, the U.S. has the highest per capita gun ownership of anywhere in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country .... In the interest of statistical accuracy, (the problem is mentioned in the linked wikipedia article) the US has more total Guns, probably because there are so many firearm enthusiasts with multiple owned guns. Israel and Switzerland have to have more gun Owners (With a LOT more firepower!) as most adult males are 'active reserve' and keep both fully automatic shoulder arms and hand guns in their homes, or so the literature seems to indicate. What matters here is US total guns and gun ownership has been climbing since WWII while homicide rates generally and non-gang related gun deaths have strongly dropped, along with much general violence INCLUDING SCHOOL SHOOTINGS. These small details show evidence it is people, not guns, that commit violent crimes. The one city that united Federal prosecutors, local police and district attorneys in seeking maximum available sentences from all jurisdictions for illegal gun carry offenses showed dramatic drops in guns illegally on the street and gun use in violent offenses. One has to question all the other local and Federal officials who have declined to follow this practice?

lovmuffin -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 5:53:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess Hey, I'll take utopian vision over gun-toting anarchy any day of the week…...[:D] I would prefer gun-toting anarchy over tyranny[8D] quote: ORIGINAL: Was Pistorius a criminal before this incident? I didn't realize that about him. From what I understand reading previous posts on this thread, Pistorius was a hot head who unnecessarily discharged a firearm in a public place on 2 separate occasions.

tweakabelle -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/12/2014 6:21:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech Please note, I keep mentioning the "homicide" rate not the "use of firearm" rate. If you look at the number of homicides, the U.S. U.K. and Australia have very similar homicide rates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate Yet, the U.S. has the highest per capita gun ownership of anywhere in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country If lawful gun owners were the slavering maniacs the anti-firearm lobby and the sensationalist press would have you believe I think our homicide rate would not be comparable to countries like the U.K. or Australia who have very restrictive firearm controls. If I offend anyone by presenting facts after you have made up your mind, I apologize. I am at a loss to discern any basis for your claim that the homicide rates in the US, the UK and Australia are "very similar" in the data at the link you supplied. According to the data at the link you supplied (presumably to support your claim), the US has a murder rate of 4.8, the UK rate is 1.2 and the Australian rate is 1.0. The US rate is almost 5 times that of Australia, and 4 times that of the UK, so there is simply no way these rates can be described as "very similar". An accurate description of the comparative rates is the US rate is many times worse than those of the UK and Australia. More accurate and relevant data can be obtained from the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate site which lists: * the US firearm-related homicide rate as 3.6 per 100,000 in 2011; * the UK firearm-related homicide rate as 0.04 per 100,000 in 2010; and * the Australian firearm-related homicide rate as 0.13 per 100,000 in 2010; Again the US rate is many times worse than either the UK or the Australian rate. As you don't seem to have presented any facts, I suspect that the chances of your post offending anyone are minimal.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/13/2014 6:49:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess Hey, I'll take utopian vision over gun-toting anarchy any day of the week…...[:D] I would prefer gun-toting anarchy over tyranny[8D] quote: ORIGINAL: Was Pistorius a criminal before this incident? I didn't realize that about him. From what I understand reading previous posts on this thread, Pistorius was a hot head who unnecessarily discharged a firearm in a public place on 2 separate occasions. Does unnecessarily discharging a firearm in South Africa carry a long prison term?? If not, how would the outcome have been different UNLESS as a result of unnecessarily discharging a firearm he had his rights to have firearms taken away? I thought you didn't believe removing guns had any effect on gun violence. Are you saying he should have been jailed for life for unnecessarily discharging a firearm - because that is the only way to keep him from using a gun UNLESS you take the gun away. So which is it - remove him from society indefinitely for misusing a gun OR remove his right to own a gun? Personally, I'm not in favor of life sentences for anything but the most severe of crimes. How exactly do we take "all criminals off the street". Does that mean the 12 year old kid who shoplifts a package of candy gets life imprisonment. Are you saying put all gun owners in jail indefinitely because they could commit a crime with a gun in the future? I just don't understand take "all criminals off the street" as a societal strategy for dealing with crime. If we wait until someone has killed someone with a gun to take them off the street hasn't a death already occurred? How do we bring Pistorius's gf back to life? We would have had to have taken Pistorius off the street BEFORE and KEEP him off the street indefinitely. How does that work exactly? Life imprisonment for any type of gun violation (like discharging in a public place, carrying a concealed weapon when it isn't allowed, carrying an unregistered gun, not having your guns properly locked up at home, taking a gun somewhere where it isn't allowed, etc.) So we make even the most minor gun violation carry a life sentence? And somehow find the tax dollars to keep that many people behind bars for life. Personally, wouldn't it be easier (and a hell of lot cheaper) to just not have allowed Pistorius to own a gun i.e., take his gun rights away? Remove the gun from his home? ETA to remove an uneccesary adjective.

Lucylastic -> RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder of Girlfriend (3/13/2014 7:15:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle I am at a loss to discern any basis for your claim that the homicide rates in the US, the UK and Australia are "very similar" in the data at the link you supplied. According to the data at the link you supplied (presumably to support your claim), the US has a murder rate of 4.8, the UK rate is 1.2 and the Australian rate is 1.0. The US rate is almost 5 times that of Australia, and 4 times that of the UK, so there is simply no way these rates can be described as "very similar". An accurate description of the comparative rates is the US rate is many times worse than those of the UK and Australia. More accurate and relevant data can be obtained from the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate site which lists: * the US firearm-related homicide rate as 3.6 per 100,000 in 2011; * the UK firearm-related homicide rate as 0.04 per 100,000 in 2010; and * the Australian firearm-related homicide rate as 0.13 per 100,000 in 2010; Again the US rate is many times worse than either the UK or the Australian rate. As you don't seem to have presented any facts, I suspect that the chances of your post offending anyone are minimal. this......because 14,000 compared to 722(in the UK) is the same, even tho the population is 1/5 of the US Not in any realm of reality is it even close Canada is ranked 13 for number of guns per 100 citizens, yet has only a 1.6 per 100.000 deaths(662) from the wikipedia page in fact, UK< Canada, and Australia, combined for that year, had a total of 1505 total deaths by intentional homicide, while the US had 14,173. so, Not so much

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