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lovmuffin -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 11:08:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGANAL: Musicmystery
.....at least charges considered...


You really don't think they are considering that ?

quote:

ORIGINAL:
..... I *do* support responsible *control* of firearms and law enforcement -- stamped ammunition, for example, safety classes, background checks in all instances. I'm not fond of concealed carry or handguns for that matter, but can live with sensible legislation. And reality is, most gun owners are responsible. It's the idiots that make legislation necessary, just as, say, drunk driving laws. I know...enter the tired Constitution argument, pretending regulated isn't in there. Let's not do that yet again.


What is stamped ammunition and for what purpose ?

I'm all for background checks but other than that I don't hear much of anything sensible coming from the gun control types.

The word regulated in the Second Amendment has nothing to do with regulating guns.

Stamped ammo makes it too expensive for most people to own.


According to my information it could add up to as much as 8.50 per gun but I only looked at one source and I hadn't been familiar with the issue. I could see it costing more because manufacturers would have tool up for it. This was being proposed in CA. Ruger and S&W have said if the legislation goes through, they won't sell guns there. I can't see how it would be worth a whole lot for all the trouble.




BamaD -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 11:52:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGANAL: Musicmystery
.....at least charges considered...


You really don't think they are considering that ?

quote:

ORIGINAL:
..... I *do* support responsible *control* of firearms and law enforcement -- stamped ammunition, for example, safety classes, background checks in all instances. I'm not fond of concealed carry or handguns for that matter, but can live with sensible legislation. And reality is, most gun owners are responsible. It's the idiots that make legislation necessary, just as, say, drunk driving laws. I know...enter the tired Constitution argument, pretending regulated isn't in there. Let's not do that yet again.


What is stamped ammunition and for what purpose ?

I'm all for background checks but other than that I don't hear much of anything sensible coming from the gun control types.

The word regulated in the Second Amendment has nothing to do with regulating guns.

Stamped ammo makes it too expensive for most people to own.


According to my information it could add up to as much as 8.50 per gun but I only looked at one source and I hadn't been familiar with the issue. I could see it costing more because manufacturers would have tool up for it. This was being proposed in CA. Ruger and S&W have said if the legislation goes through, they won't sell guns there. I can't see how it would be worth a whole lot for all the trouble.


That would be microstamping of the firearm, not the ammo.
I have seen much higher estimates.
Also it is useless for revolvers as they don't leave shell casings laying around.
On top of this the creator of the technology says it is not yet dependable.




lovmuffin -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 12:08:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGANAL: Musicmystery
.....at least charges considered...


You really don't think they are considering that ?

quote:

ORIGINAL:
..... I *do* support responsible *control* of firearms and law enforcement -- stamped ammunition, for example, safety classes, background checks in all instances. I'm not fond of concealed carry or handguns for that matter, but can live with sensible legislation. And reality is, most gun owners are responsible. It's the idiots that make legislation necessary, just as, say, drunk driving laws. I know...enter the tired Constitution argument, pretending regulated isn't in there. Let's not do that yet again.


What is stamped ammunition and for what purpose ?

I'm all for background checks but other than that I don't hear much of anything sensible coming from the gun control types.

The word regulated in the Second Amendment has nothing to do with regulating guns.

Stamped ammo makes it too expensive for most people to own.


According to my information it could add up to as much as 8.50 per gun but I only looked at one source and I hadn't been familiar with the issue. I could see it costing more because manufacturers would have tool up for it. This was being proposed in CA. Ruger and S&W have said if the legislation goes through, they won't sell guns there. I can't see how it would be worth a whole lot for all the trouble.


That would be microstamping of the firearm, not the ammo.
I have seen much higher estimates.
Also it is useless for revolvers as they don't leave shell casings laying around.
On top of this the creator of the technology says it is not yet dependable.


I'm aware of this ballistic fingerprint thing where they put some kind of microscopic tags in the powder mix so they can be traced to a particular lot of ammo. I'm sure you can see the obvious flaws in that scheme.




BamaD -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 12:15:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGANAL: Musicmystery
.....at least charges considered...


You really don't think they are considering that ?

quote:

ORIGINAL:
..... I *do* support responsible *control* of firearms and law enforcement -- stamped ammunition, for example, safety classes, background checks in all instances. I'm not fond of concealed carry or handguns for that matter, but can live with sensible legislation. And reality is, most gun owners are responsible. It's the idiots that make legislation necessary, just as, say, drunk driving laws. I know...enter the tired Constitution argument, pretending regulated isn't in there. Let's not do that yet again.


What is stamped ammunition and for what purpose ?

I'm all for background checks but other than that I don't hear much of anything sensible coming from the gun control types.

The word regulated in the Second Amendment has nothing to do with regulating guns.

Stamped ammo makes it too expensive for most people to own.


According to my information it could add up to as much as 8.50 per gun but I only looked at one source and I hadn't been familiar with the issue. I could see it costing more because manufacturers would have tool up for it. This was being proposed in CA. Ruger and S&W have said if the legislation goes through, they won't sell guns there. I can't see how it would be worth a whole lot for all the trouble.


That would be microstamping of the firearm, not the ammo.
I have seen much higher estimates.
Also it is useless for revolvers as they don't leave shell casings laying around.
On top of this the creator of the technology says it is not yet dependable.


I'm aware of this ballistic fingerprint thing where they put some kind of microscopic tags in the powder mix so they can be traced to a particular lot of ammo. I'm sure you can see the obvious flaws in that scheme.

The concept worked so well in Oklahoma City.




MercTech -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 12:27:28 PM)

Micro-stamping ammunition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_microstamping

Actually, casings can be tracked to the gun they were fired from already. Chamber markings are commonly used for ballistic matching as well as expended bullets.

Many jurisdictions that require registration of firearms require an exemplar of a fired round and casing for the firearm being registered.

The opponents to this being a requirement oppose not the micro-stamping but the huge expensive unfunded mandate to keep a database of all the legal firearms in existence. And, the fact that such a program would be rendered ineffective with unlawful weapons by 5 minutes with a file.

To me, this sounds like one of those ideas that sound good at first but when thought through would provide no appreciable benefit in practice.

Rather like the micro-tags required in explosives. About seven years after they started doing that; it was found that you could find micro-tags all over the bloody place that were tracked from sites where explosives were used lawfully.

got interested in explosive tags after finding some in air samples for asbestos. The tags rather jump out at you when you look through a polarized microscope. After finding out what the tiny pieces of metal with code numbers on them were; it was really a WTF moment as the air samples were from an asbestos rip-out in the basement of a 1920s build post office.





BamaD -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 12:51:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Micro-stamping ammunition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_microstamping

Actually, casings can be tracked to the gun they were fired from already. Chamber markings are commonly used for ballistic matching as well as expended bullets.

Many jurisdictions that require registration of firearms require an exemplar of a fired round and casing for the firearm being registered.

The opponents to this being a requirement oppose not the micro-stamping but the huge expensive unfunded mandate to keep a database of all the legal firearms in existence. And, the fact that such a program would be rendered ineffective with unlawful weapons by 5 minutes with a file.

To me, this sounds like one of those ideas that sound good at first but when thought through would provide no appreciable benefit in practice.

Rather like the micro-tags required in explosives. About seven years after they started doing that; it was found that you could find micro-tags all over the bloody place that were tracked from sites where explosives were used lawfully.

got interested in explosive tags after finding some in air samples for asbestos. The tags rather jump out at you when you look through a polarized microscope. After finding out what the tiny pieces of metal with code numbers on them were; it was really a WTF moment as the air samples were from an asbestos rip-out in the basement of a 1920s build post office.



Exactly it creates a new tracking system who's only value would be a de facto registration not of guns but of gun owners.




BamaD -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 12:54:00 PM)

FR

While this has been interesting it has nothing to do with the case.




lovmuffin -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 1:27:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

While this has been interesting it has nothing to do with the case.


Actually it does to some degree. I had the impression that the poster I was responding too thinks because of this and other cases, he has a particular flavor of gun control that will help in stopping these kinds of shootings. I'm sure you've noticed that its mostly the same ones who favor some kind of additional gun control measures who are always condemning the shooter. Speaking for myself I would go out of my way not to shoot someone for any reason. I would run, back away or whatever. However I wasn't there and we don't have all the details. As usual, some people are putting thoughts in this guys head and making shit up.




jlf1961 -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 2:21:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


Actually it does to some degree. I had the impression that the poster I was responding too thinks because of this and other cases, he has a particular flavor of gun control that will help in stopping these kinds of shootings. I'm sure you've noticed that its mostly the same ones who favor some kind of additional gun control measures who are always condemning the shooter. Speaking for myself I would go out of my way not to shoot someone for any reason. I would run, back away or whatever. However I wasn't there and we don't have all the details. As usual, some people are putting thoughts in this guys head and making shit up.


How in the hell is ammo going to stop this kind of shooting?




BamaD -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 2:22:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

While this has been interesting it has nothing to do with the case.


Actually it does to some degree. I had the impression that the poster I was responding too thinks because of this and other cases, he has a particular flavor of gun control that will help in stopping these kinds of shootings. I'm sure you've noticed that its mostly the same ones who favor some kind of additional gun control measures who are always condemning the shooter. Speaking for myself I would go out of my way not to shoot someone for any reason. I would run, back away or whatever. However I wasn't there and we don't have all the details. As usual, some people are putting thoughts in this guys head and making shit up.

I made the statement because he wants to change it to a conversation about gun control
not about a man with no place to back off to shooting a kid trying to take the gun from him.
I admit freely that the father didn't handle this perfectly.
I would have had the kid on his knees, back to me, fingers interlocked behind his head.
This would have virtually eliminated the kid getting stupid.
Jerome Brockway, the A-Tech superintendent, declined to discuss the case and referred questions to the county prosecutor.

"We charge [people] with everything that we feel they are guilty of, and in this case, he is guilty of a felony," Harold Specht, the chief assistant prosecutor at the Ashtabula County prosecutor's office, told HuffPost.

Specht said the charge is related only to the knife found inside Wiser's vehicle. The teen is not facing charges for possession of the stun gun or the Airsoft guns.

"I was in jail for almost 13 days," Wiser said. "The first bond hearing I went to was on December 15. The judge ordered me [to be] held on a half million-dollar bond, pending a psychological evaluation. I did that and passed. They found I was not suicidal, homicidal or a threat to anybody. My attorney brought it up in front of a different judge, who let me out on a $50,000 bond and an ankle monitor. I was released from jail on Christmas Eve."

Wiser acknowledges he should not have had any of the items on school property and said he is willing to accept punishment for that; however, he does not feel a felony charge is fitting, considering the circumstances.

"There are kids at my school all the time who get caught with knives and are suspended," he said. "My school is very rural, and people carry knives. I can accept the fact that there was a lapse in judgment, and I can accept a punishment, but I have already been expelled from both the tech school and my home school. The Army -- I was enrolled in the Future Soldiers program and was scheduled to ship out in August -- has discharged me, pending a not guilty verdict or dropped charges without prejudice."
A VIDEO FROM WISER'S YOUTUBE PAGE: (Story Continues Below)
Wiser said the conditions of his bond also prohibit him from having any contact with his grandfather, who is dying from cancer.

"The one judge I went in front of told me to remove any firearms from my parents' house and put them at my grandpa's house," Wiser said. "The next judge freaked out about me even knowing what a gun is and put a no contact order against me and my grandparents. My grandfather is dying right now, and I am not allowed within 500 feet of him."

Specht said his office believes the felony charge is justified and has no plans to reduce the charge.

"There are all these school occurrences where people are shot, people are killed by other students," Specht said. "We see it every day … so we don't take these things lightly. … We have to be sure that we don't have a potential for something like that to happen here."

Wiser said he takes offense to the comparison.

"I was enlisted in the Army and went to school to be [a] police officer and fireman," he explained. "Why are they trying to paint me as a potential school shooter? I never had any intentions of hurting a soul."

Wiser's attorney, William Bobulsky, did not return calls for comment from HuffPost.

There was a petition on change.org that demanded the charges be reduced to a misdemeanor. Within 48 hours, the petition garnered 1,349 signatures; however, Wiser said he had to ask that the petition be taken down.

"The court threatened to hold sanctions against me and my lawyer," he said. "I guess the prosecutor was upset because his inbox had been flooded with emails as a result of the petition."

Specht admitted he is aware of the controversy surrounding the case, but he believes he can prove the justification behind the charge when it goes to court.

"I know that there's a load of people out here that just think we're the devil because we're allegedly ruining this young kid's life, and that's not the case at all," he said. "If this goes to trial, it will certainly come out in the wash."

Wiser is scheduled to appear in court again on April 1 for a pretrial hearing. A jury trial is tentatively scheduled for June 11.

Attorney Colin Maher, owner and managing member of The Maher Law Firm in Columbus, Ohio, said the case could go either way once it is given to a jury.

"[Would] a jury consider a four-inch knife as a weapon? I think it would be difficult…but with a jury, you never know," Maher conceded.

For now, Wiser's future remains in the balance.

"Never in my life did I think this would happen," Wiser said. "I dedicated my life to public service, and now a four-inch pocketknife could ruin everything."




lovmuffin -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 3:36:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


Actually it does to some degree. I had the impression that the poster I was responding too thinks because of this and other cases, he has a particular flavor of gun control that will help in stopping these kinds of shootings. I'm sure you've noticed that its mostly the same ones who favor some kind of additional gun control measures who are always condemning the shooter. Speaking for myself I would go out of my way not to shoot someone for any reason. I would run, back away or whatever. However I wasn't there and we don't have all the details. As usual, some people are putting thoughts in this guys head and making shit up.


How in the hell is ammo going to stop this kind of shooting?


I don't have a clue, its just another scheme in the gun control flavor of the week.




angelikaJ -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 4:53:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

I appreciate your clarifying things.

I do want to point out that if we cut the dad some slack for possibly having a faulty physiological response, then don't we have to cut the same slack for the boy for lowering his arms?
Humans don't always do the most logical things when in life or death situations.

If we give the kid a pass for tying to take the gun don't we have to give the father a pass for shooting
him?


We know the kid moved his hands.
We don't know he went for the gun.




Politesub53 -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 5:00:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I read that he heard noises, I didn't see anything that implied those sounds were of his daughter having sex. Maybe you could provide a link since you seem to have read about it.


I didnt read about it, I stated the obvious. The girl didnt seem to be in a state of distress, the boy was in her bedroom after being invited.....

You work it out, it isnt difficult.




Musicmystery -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 5:27:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


Actually it does to some degree. I had the impression that the poster I was responding too thinks because of this and other cases, he has a particular flavor of gun control that will help in stopping these kinds of shootings. I'm sure you've noticed that its mostly the same ones who favor some kind of additional gun control measures who are always condemning the shooter. Speaking for myself I would go out of my way not to shoot someone for any reason. I would run, back away or whatever. However I wasn't there and we don't have all the details. As usual, some people are putting thoughts in this guys head and making shit up.


How in the hell is ammo going to stop this kind of shooting?

It's not. lovmuf didn't like the question I asked, and so ran with an irrelevant tangent pulled from one of the examples of a completely different point.

Posting as usual here.




Musicmystery -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 5:29:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR
People are willing to do things they don't want to do if they have to.


The trouble is, he didn't have to.

Monday morning quarterbacking is so cool.

Back at ya.




Musicmystery -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 5:31:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Link to the police reports please

What? The statements from the authorities to the media not good enough?

Not if they don't say he is a mad dog killer

The reason you and your pal see yourself surrounded by unreasonable people is your propensity to paint extremes. There's never middle ground, no sense of proportion, no allowance for degrees, just black and white simplicity. Statements like these.

And while you two are riled up about knee jerk responses to killings, whether you realize it or not, you *do* automatically side with anyone holding a gun in these situations, and hence, spin information to support that rationalization, convinced you're surrounded by demons determined to come for your guns, and that if they're limited in any fashion, that equals no more guns.

Dad's not a mad dog. He's an idiot. Having a gun made him a deadly idiot. Yup, I get, and so does everyone else, that the actions and words of the daughter and dead kid didn't help, to say the least, but any dad with a lick of sense knows his kids are not reliable sources of information, especially when there's another teen in the bed. Jesus fucking Christ. Hello! And no one is even saying he's guilty--they're saying he should be tried, at least charges considered. It's the "he's an innocent victim" rhetoric that riles.

Surprise -- I'm not in favor of eliminating guns. My (very responsible) neighbors frequently own guns -- generally *useful* guns, primarily hunting rifles, and if not guns, hunting bows. I *do* support responsible *control* of firearms and law enforcement -- stamped ammunition, for example, safety classes, background checks in all instances. I'm not fond of concealed carry or handguns for that matter, but can live with sensible legislation. And reality is, most gun owners are responsible. It's the idiots that make legislation necessary, just as, say, drunk driving laws. I know...enter the tired Constitution argument, pretending regulated isn't in there. Let's not do that yet again.

When I see the NRA and/or gun owners stepping up and saying not "No gun control!" but "The guy was an idiot--we need to prevent this so that guns are safe for honest Americans," I'll be interested and, depending on what they come up with, even supportive.

Until then, you guys own the knee jerk, like it or not.




I and every other pro gun person on here have declared some shootings to be indefensible

Really! What are they? Do tell!
quote:

you and the antis on the other hand have never found a shooting they couldn't find an excuse
for condemning.

That's exactly the propensity to paint extremes I was just talking about. Thanks for demonstrating.




BamaD -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 6:11:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

I appreciate your clarifying things.

I do want to point out that if we cut the dad some slack for possibly having a faulty physiological response, then don't we have to cut the same slack for the boy for lowering his arms?
Humans don't always do the most logical things when in life or death situations.

If we give the kid a pass for tying to take the gun don't we have to give the father a pass for shooting
him?


We know the kid moved his hands.
We don't know he went for the gun.


A. We don't know he didn't go for the gun.
B. We don't know it didn't look exactly like going for the gun.
C. We don't know the father couldn't instantly think of something else the kid had in mind.
D. We do know that anyone who makes a sudden move when a gun is being held on them
is an idiot.
E. We also know that if the father was looking to shoot him he would have been dead before
that happened.




BamaD -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 6:16:29 PM)

"Really! What are they? Do tell!"

Dunn in Florida, Rodriquez in Texas, the guy in Missouri who shot the "floater"
The guy in KS who shot someone walking their dog the guy in WS who shot a kid for going through
his garbage, and of course the Pistorius case.

Name seven you thought were legit, name seven that any of the anti gun crowd thought were legit.




deathtothepixies -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 6:19:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD



A. We don't know he didn't go for the gun.
B. We don't know it didn't look exactly like going for the gun.
C. We don't know the father couldn't instantly think of something else the kid had in mind.
D. We do know that anyone who makes a sudden move when a gun is being held on them
is an idiot.
E. We also know that if the father was looking to shoot him he would have been dead before
that happened.


I see you are channelling Donald Rumsfeld now....

we don't know he didn't
we don't know it didn't
we don't know he couldn't

seems like there's an awful lot of things "we" don't know.

One thing we do know, there's going to be a funeral for a kid




Musicmystery -> RE: Another shooting of an unarmed teen... (3/19/2014 6:23:46 PM)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/19/us/in-150-shootings-the-fbi-deemed-agents-faultless.html?_r=0




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