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[Poll]

Justified use of deadly force


Prevent a rape
  16% (27)
Prevent bodily injury to self or family member
  17% (28)
Protect home from intruders
  11% (18)
Protect private property.
  3% (6)
Protect self from armed attack
  18% (30)
Protect self from attack
  14% (23)
Finding an intruder in your home
  8% (14)
Stop a trespasser
  2% (4)
Stop someone attempting to break into your home.
  5% (9)


Total Votes : 159
(last vote on : 3/25/2014 8:09:38 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 9:21:36 AM   
MasterCaneman


Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

I am amazed at how lightly some people seem to view ending another person's life, and also risking their own. Life is precious and short. Do you really want human blood, another person's life, on your hands, if you can easily avoid it? Do you value your own life so little that you're willing to risk it fighting over replaceable stuff?

If somebody looks scary to you and is not attacking you, don't follow them and start a fight with them just because they seem like a "violent criminal". If they are actually a violent criminal, you're being totally stupid and risking your own life, and if they're not, you've murdered an innocent person.

If somebody wants your wallet, man, it's not worth risking your life fighting over it. Cancel your credit cards and let them keep the $40 in cash you had in there.


Hmmm, I carry an licensed pistol just about every time I walk out the door, yet I don't seem to recall ever thinking that I'm looking forward to 'ending another person's life'. My weapon is present to stop someone from assaulting, robbing, or killing me for what I have.

I don't fantasize about shooting and killing people. I know what happens afterward. Issuing a blanket statement that it's 'wrong' to defend yourself is in itself wrong. We all have the basic human rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and mine is staying above ground and in one piece, more or less. And if it's necessary to protect me and mine, I have no problem with pulling a trigger again, and can say with all sincerity that all I'll feel is recoil.

Edited to remove an incident in the past I do not feel appropriate to discuss on a public forum.

< Message edited by MasterCaneman -- 3/21/2014 9:24:06 AM >

_____________________________

Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ambition.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

Goddess Wrangler



(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 9:22:19 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It really isn't. That's your propensity for extremes.

And you promised to put me on hide.

See, you *really* can't read.

No such promise. I said it was a good idea.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 9:26:28 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It really isn't. That's your propensity for extremes.

And you promised to put me on hide.

See, you *really* can't read.

No such promise. I said it was a good idea.

My mistake I thought a person as brilliant as you would follow up on a good idea.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 9:30:26 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

I am amazed at how lightly some people seem to view ending another person's life, and also risking their own. Life is precious and short. Do you really want human blood, another person's life, on your hands, if you can easily avoid it? Do you value your own life so little that you're willing to risk it fighting over replaceable stuff?

If somebody looks scary to you and is not attacking you, don't follow them and start a fight with them just because they seem like a "violent criminal". If they are actually a violent criminal, you're being totally stupid and risking your own life, and if they're not, you've murdered an innocent person.

If somebody wants your wallet, man, it's not worth risking your life fighting over it. Cancel your credit cards and let them keep the $40 in cash you had in there.

Does this mean I can't "reasonably" defend until they shoot at me or stab me?
Not trying to be snarky but what, in your mind justifies self defense?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 9:49:19 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Does this mean I can't "reasonably" defend until they shoot at me or stab me?
Not trying to be snarky but what, in your mind justifies self defense?

No, it means when they make that final lunge at you or just that fraction of a second before they pull their trigger - not just because they are being threatening with a gun or still more than one pace away from you holding a knife.

I think what others are suggesting is that you appear to be a little hasty in when to make that final judgement call.
You always seem to suggest that you have to kill them first or they automatically get first strike/shot.
What we are saying is there is always that split-second before that happens is when you shoot, not before and obviously not after.
You don't seem to be able to make that sort of very fine judgement.
And in all the threads where you seem to side with the shooter, there always seems to be a more defensive action or scare tactic they could have taken rather than shoot the person in a deadly fashion.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 9:52:44 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It really isn't. That's your propensity for extremes.

And you promised to put me on hide.

See, you *really* can't read.

No such promise. I said it was a good idea.

My mistake I thought a person as brilliant as you would follow up on a good idea.

Nothing's stopping you from hitting "hide" either. It *was* your idea, after all.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 10:23:34 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Does this mean I can't "reasonably" defend until they shoot at me or stab me?
Not trying to be snarky but what, in your mind justifies self defense?

No, it means when they make that final lunge at you or just that fraction of a second before they pull their trigger - not just because they are being threatening with a gun or still more than one pace away from you holding a knife.

I think what others are suggesting is that you appear to be a little hasty in when to make that final judgement call.
You always seem to suggest that you have to kill them first or they automatically get first strike/shot.
What we are saying is there is always that split-second before that happens is when you shoot, not before and obviously not after.
You don't seem to be able to make that sort of very fine judgement.
And in all the threads where you seem to side with the shooter, there always seems to be a more defensive action or scare tactic they could have taken rather than shoot the person in a deadly fashion.


Actually I have pointed out that in real life situations I have had to make those very decisions
and by making them understand that I am as fully capable of dealing out deadly force as they
are AVOIDED violence by waiting as long as you, with only theory to lean on, I would have let
them decide to push it over that boundary and been forced into violence.


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 10:24:55 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It really isn't. That's your propensity for extremes.

And you promised to put me on hide.

See, you *really* can't read.

No such promise. I said it was a good idea.

My mistake I thought a person as brilliant as you would follow up on a good idea.

Nothing's stopping you from hitting "hide" either. It *was* your idea, after all.

So you can snark all you want without any backtalk from me?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 10:31:07 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Actually I have pointed out that in real life situations I have had to make those very decisions
and by making them understand that I am as fully capable of dealing out deadly force as they
are AVOIDED violence by waiting as long as you, with only theory to lean on, I would have let
them decide to push it over that boundary and been forced into violence.

Perhaps you can explain why then, when given various scenarios in the news where there is pretty much always a way out but the shooter did the dumb-ass thing and killed an innocent person, that you almost always defend the shooter??

And, as we have seen, they often come up with some excuse under the asinine SYG laws and walk away with it??

All too often we see this in the news where, as far as I'm concerned, a murderer walks free or isn't even prosecuted.


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 3/21/2014 10:32:44 AM >

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 10:33:12 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Actually I have pointed out that in real life situations I have had to make those very decisions
and by making them understand that I am as fully capable of dealing out deadly force as they
are AVOIDED violence by waiting as long as you, with only theory to lean on, I would have let
them decide to push it over that boundary and been forced into violence.

Perhaps you can explain why then, when given various scenarios news where there is pretty much always a way out but the shooter did the dumb-ass thing and killed an innocent person, that you almost always defend the shooter??

And, as we have seen, they often come up with some excuse under the asinine SYG laws and walk away with it??

All too often we see this is the news where, as far as I'm concerned, a murderer walks free or isn't even prosecuted.


You mistake imperfect tactics for criminal behavior.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 10:37:40 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Actually I have pointed out that in real life situations I have had to make those very decisions
and by making them understand that I am as fully capable of dealing out deadly force as they
are AVOIDED violence by waiting as long as you, with only theory to lean on, I would have let
them decide to push it over that boundary and been forced into violence.

Perhaps you can explain why then, when given various scenarios news where there is pretty much always a way out but the shooter did the dumb-ass thing and killed an innocent person, that you almost always defend the shooter??

And, as we have seen, they often come up with some excuse under the asinine SYG laws and walk away with it??

All too often we see this is the news where, as far as I'm concerned, a murderer walks free or isn't even prosecuted.


You mistake imperfect tactics for criminal behavior.

No, I mistake a murderer being let to walk free under stupid laws when they should be hanged or at least tried for manslaughter if nothing else.

Your sig line sums you up very nicely "God created man, Colonel Colt made them equal".
Typical pro-gun nutter who takes the extreme position and usually takes the shooter's side.


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 10:46:07 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Actually I have pointed out that in real life situations I have had to make those very decisions
and by making them understand that I am as fully capable of dealing out deadly force as they
are AVOIDED violence by waiting as long as you, with only theory to lean on, I would have let
them decide to push it over that boundary and been forced into violence.

Perhaps you can explain why then, when given various scenarios news where there is pretty much always a way out but the shooter did the dumb-ass thing and killed an innocent person, that you almost always defend the shooter??

And, as we have seen, they often come up with some excuse under the asinine SYG laws and walk away with it??

All too often we see this is the news where, as far as I'm concerned, a murderer walks free or isn't even prosecuted.


You mistake imperfect tactics for criminal behavior.

No, I mistake a murderer being let to walk free under stupid laws when they should be hanged or at least tried for manslaughter if nothing else.

Your sig line sums you up very nicely "God created man, Colonel Colt made them equal".
Typical pro-gun nutter who takes the extreme position and usually takes the shooter's side.



Gun nutter how open minded of you.
We disagree so I think you are wrong.
We disagree so you say I am nuts, who is
taking the extreme position?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 10:52:58 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Gun nutter how open minded of you.
We disagree so I think you are wrong.
We disagree so you say I am nuts, who is
taking the extreme position?

Check the stats for gun deaths of the US and the UK.
Now tell me who is living in a psychopathic gun-nutters society.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 11:05:23 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Gun nutter how open minded of you.
We disagree so I think you are wrong.
We disagree so you say I am nuts, who is
taking the extreme position?

Check the stats for gun deaths of the US and the UK.
Now tell me who is living in a psychopathic gun-nutters society.

Are you saying that the fact that I know your murder rate
which was always far lower than ours has not been affected
by gun laws while our murder rate has dropped precipitously
without them makes me a psychopath?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 11:18:22 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Does this mean I can't "reasonably" defend until they shoot at me or stab me?
Not trying to be snarky but what, in your mind justifies self defense?

No, it means when they make that final lunge at you or just that fraction of a second before they pull their trigger - not just because they are being threatening with a gun or still more than one pace away from you holding a knife.

I think what others are suggesting is that you appear to be a little hasty in when to make that final judgement call.
You always seem to suggest that you have to kill them first or they automatically get first strike/shot.
What we are saying is there is always that split-second before that happens is when you shoot, not before and obviously not after.
You don't seem to be able to make that sort of very fine judgement.
And in all the threads where you seem to side with the shooter, there always seems to be a more defensive action or scare tactic they could have taken rather than shoot the person in a deadly fashion.


If you wait till their finger is tightening on the trigger you get shot even if you shoot them.
If you wait till they charge or start slashing with a knife you get cut even if you shoot them.
Doesn't it make sense to let them know that it is going to cost them big time if they go that
route.
Doesn't it make sense to take action if, when advised of the cost, they persist?
I have repeatedly AVOIDED violence by making they aware of the cost.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 3/21/2014 11:19:50 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 11:48:54 AM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Does this mean I can't "reasonably" defend until they shoot at me or stab me?
Not trying to be snarky but what, in your mind justifies self defense?

No, it means when they make that final lunge at you or just that fraction of a second before they pull their trigger - not just because they are being threatening with a gun or still more than one pace away from you holding a knife.



I'm not sure how you would know the split second when a threatening person with a gun is going to shoot you. If he is threatening, has a gun and goes for it or starts to point it at you, ya take em out. You don't try to determine the split second time frame he's going to pull the trigger. Where are you coming up with that ?

The knife, that's a maybe but even then if the guy is 5 paces away and starts coming at you, what would you think his intent is ? Some people are crazy like that, especially if you're holding a gun. More than 5 paces you could point your gun and may have time for a verbal warning but if he keeps coming you're probably going to shoot.

Of course the armed attacker scenerio doesn't really compare to the shooting incidents we've been discussing on these threads and forgive me if I don't take your tactical advice.


_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 11:56:33 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		A lot of the disputed shootings involve someone without a firearm. I certainly take your point if it's a shoot-out. But otherwise, while granting you may not know whether he's packing, the later point is more common in these factors.

And sometimes it can't be avoided. Locally, a woman high on bath salts, with a history of drug abuse, tried to knife her dog, strangle her kid, and was crazed on the village streets. Deputies tried to control the situation, but she kept attacking, so they tazed her, and called an ambulance. In her already challenged state, she died at the hospital. This is, while unfortunate, an appropriate use of deterrent force by the officers, who did try to diffuse the situation as peacefully as they could.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 12:20:18 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

It's all the slavering over what people would do with, say, an intruder, that gets me. It smacks too much of joyful aggression dressed up as righteous defence - so many 'solutions', in other words, waiting in eager anticipation of the problem one day coming along to fit them.

That is like saying that using my seatbelt is slavering for a car wreck
Or working out in advance the best way to get out of a fire means you are
waiting for a house fire with eager anticipation


If I'd ever seen a thread on here about comparing seat belts, with pictures of each poster's seat belt, demonstrating the lovingly-detailed stitching of each and general craftsmanship, along with comments like 'Mine can hold a force 50/500/500 Gs, what can yours hold?' . . . I might agree that yours is a fair comparison. And if you and others were once to talk about your guns as ugly things that do an ugly, but occasionally necessary, job (let alone the ugliest of all jobs - as I see it) . . . my opinion might alter.


_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 1:30:10 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

It's all the slavering over what people would do with, say, an intruder, that gets me. It smacks too much of joyful aggression dressed up as righteous defence - so many 'solutions', in other words, waiting in eager anticipation of the problem one day coming along to fit them.

That is like saying that using my seatbelt is slavering for a car wreck
Or working out in advance the best way to get out of a fire means you are
waiting for a house fire with eager anticipation


If I'd ever seen a thread on here about comparing seat belts, with pictures of each poster's seat belt, demonstrating the lovingly-detailed stitching of each and general craftsmanship, along with comments like 'Mine can hold a force 50/500/500 Gs, what can yours hold?' . . . I might agree that yours is a fair comparison. And if you and others were once to talk about your guns as ugly things that do an ugly, but occasionally necessary, job (let alone the ugliest of all jobs - as I see it) . . . my opinion might alter.


So you see that I am right except for my failure to hold firearms in the same distain you do.
Well that is something.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/21/2014 1:34:39 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
So you see that I am right except for my failure to hold firearms in the same distain you do.
Well that is something.

I disagree. I'm pretty content with calling American culture highly violent. It shows up pretty much everywhere including our mass media. Peon's characterization of "slavering" is perhaps unflattering but not without merit. Of course, that's pretty much entirely orthogonal to a discussion of guns. Adding or removing guns won't change that attribute of our culture.

Aswad made a similar comment. There was a thread where some person had done something horrendous and everyone wanted to <insert horrific torture here>. His comment was simply that the root of the problem seemed to be demonstrated in the very thread discussing it. We're down with torture. We allow our government to do it. We fantasize about it ourselves.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 120
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