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RE: Protection or persecution? - 3/20/2014 7:45:39 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		I apologize. Based upon these parts of your post, I got the impression you didn't quite understand how things worked in a Grand Jury room.

I'm sure, after re-reading your post, you can understand my confusion?





quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

FR

A couple of things strike me about this. First, he hasn't been convicted yet, so it's a question of how a grand jury will react. I'm guessing that a half decent lawyer, assuming that the facts are as they've been reported, would be able to get the grand jury to throw it out pretty quickly.

...

I guess we have to trust the common sense of the grand jury?



Let me re-iterate and expand in light of my snip, here:

Most of the time, the only lawyer in a Grand Jury room is a prosecutor. Their role is not usually to get the Grand Jury to throw things out (although as Grand Juries are, basically, just tools of the state, I have seen prosecutors "tank" presentations to prevent a true bill being handed up).

It's usually the role of the defense attorney to get things "thrown out". Since defense attorneys rarely have any business in a Grand Jury room ...

Secondly, there is no "common sense of the Grand Jury". If the prosecutor stands at the front of the room and says: "Blah, blah, blah ... as your legal advisor, I am directing you to indict so that I can bring this to trial and prove to you that he did it.", the GJ would hand up a true bill.

Anyway ...

The GJ in this system is not even in the same zip code as any kind of test of guilt or innocence. It's not their role by a long shot.

I'm not sure how it works in Ohio (or if they still even use Grand Juries) but, in this case, since the young man is the "target" of the case, in most states, he wouldn't be required to testify in front of a GJ. While it's the young man's right to testify, if he chooses, he doesn't enjoy the same protections as he does in a courtroom.

It's for that reason that defense attorneys generally don't "allow" their clients to go in front of a GJ.

Back to oblivion with you.





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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Protection or persecution? - 3/20/2014 8:20:38 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Children...and he is one...need to learn to follow rules. If he had left his weapons at home as he should he would not be in this mess. People in this thread seem to forget his responsibility in his own problems...it was HIS fault. He knew the rules and willfully ignored them.

But

That said I do agree that zero tolerance policies are just as much an over reaction to fear as those that feel they need a gun with them at all times for personal protection. This is clearly an instance where zero tolerance does not serve its intended purpose.

How about just no tolerance within reason rules...so many times since these types of policies have been in place have children making innocent mistakes been punished beyond reason.

Damn what is it with us... why all the damn fear!!!

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Protection or persecution? - 3/20/2014 8:26:01 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		I think the worst part is that he's studying to be a firefighter (He already passed the law enforcement portion of his school's curriculum) and a Paramedic. He also volunteers on a rescue squad where, one would assume, he has been advised to carry certain emergency equipment with him. This could be a result of "good Samaritan" laws?

He may be in a bit of a "catch-22" here.

He's going to a technical high school that teaches in these fields. I would find it weird if 1/3 (or so) of the student body wasn't carrying a knife that's used for cutting seatbelts, etc. in their emergency kit in their car.

No. He pissed off some student (or teacher) and is being fucked with by some prissy, whiny, little bitch with an agenda.





_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Protection or persecution? - 3/20/2014 8:35:16 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		That all may be true...but he still broke the rules and he should have known... But don't get me wrong I think this is an over reaction and wrong as far as the felony charges are concerned. He certainly deserved to be expelled from school but that is as far as it should go...Reason should prevail.

He had a choice... go to school follow the rules... or not go to school. If say I am taking a course in law enforcement at my local community college that does not give me the right to carry a firearm on school grounds if it is against the rules... Even if I am taking weapons training on the side. The student... not the school... must accommodate the rules. The school has no control over what job he has or what he volunteers for... that is his responsibility.

Butch

ps... Damn I hate being an adult!

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/20/2014 9:25:27 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Protection or persecution? - 3/20/2014 8:43:31 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		*changed my mind*

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 3/20/2014 8:44:58 AM >

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Protection or persecution? - 3/20/2014 12:25:38 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		Hello from Oblivion!


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I apologize. Based upon these parts of your post, I got the impression you didn't quite understand how things worked in a Grand Jury room.

I'm sure, after re-reading your post, you can understand my confusion?


I have read enough of your posts to understand your confusion, it does come very easily to you, doesn't it.


quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

FR

A couple of things strike me about this. First, he hasn't been convicted yet, so it's a question of how a grand jury will react. I'm guessing that a half decent lawyer, assuming that the facts are as they've been reported, would be able to get the grand jury to throw it out pretty quickly.

...

I guess we have to trust the common sense of the grand jury?



Let me re-iterate and expand in light of my snip, here:

Most of the time, the only lawyer in a Grand Jury room is a prosecutor. Their role is not usually to get the Grand Jury to throw things out (although as Grand Juries are, basically, just tools of the state, I have seen prosecutors "tank" presentations to prevent a true bill being handed up).

It's usually the role of the defense attorney to get things "thrown out". Since defense attorneys rarely have any business in a Grand Jury room ...

Secondly, there is no "common sense of the Grand Jury". If the prosecutor stands at the front of the room and says: "Blah, blah, blah ... as your legal advisor, I am directing you to indict so that I can bring this to trial and prove to you that he did it.", the GJ would hand up a true bill.

Anyway ...

The GJ in this system is not even in the same zip code as any kind of test of guilt or innocence. It's not their role by a long shot.

I'm not sure how it works in Ohio (or if they still even use Grand Juries) but, in this case, since the young man is the "target" of the case, in most states, he wouldn't be required to testify in front of a GJ. While it's the young man's right to testify, if he chooses, he doesn't enjoy the same protections as he does in a courtroom.

It's for that reason that defense attorneys generally don't "allow" their clients to go in front of a GJ.

Back to oblivion with you.






I have no idea why you are getting yourself all bent out of shape, nor why you feel such a desperate need to take the patronising tone that you have chosen to take.

I am equally certain that someone with your extensive legal knowledge would accept the following facts as true;

1) This young man has not been convicted of a crime
2) The grand jury can throw his case out
3) If the grand jury does not throw his case out, he will have a trial

But, tell ya what... You're the best!

Hope that makes you feel heaps better about yourself!






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Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Protection or persecution? - 3/20/2014 12:30:47 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Children...and he is one...need to learn to follow rules. If he had left his weapons at home as he should he would not be in this mess. People in this thread seem to forget his responsibility in his own problems...it was HIS fault. He knew the rules and willfully ignored them.


I'm afraid I can't agree as nothing he had in his car could be construed as a weapon by reasonable evaluation with the exception of a non lethal stunner under lock and key in the glove compartment.

I would also consider the search and seizure of items safely secured in his personal vehicle a gross mis-use of authority.

Then, I'm an old fart that got his first pocket knife at age 8 and had a pocket knife with him all through school. And, during hunting season, often had a shotgun or rifle in the trunk as I would be going hunting with friends over the weekend and we would leave straight from school on Friday.

I'm a big believer that people should receive punishment for their behavior. Not for possessing an item that might, by a sick mind, be considered to be able to be used to harm someone.

______________________________________________________

I was taught many moons ago that a Grand Jury existed as a check to make sure that an action someone had been arrested for was actually a crime under current law as understood by a panel of regular citizens.

< Message edited by MercTech -- 3/20/2014 12:35:27 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Protection or persecution? - 3/20/2014 1:04:16 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

I was taught many moons ago that a Grand Jury existed as a check to make sure that an action someone had been arrested for was actually a crime under current law as understood by a panel of regular citizens.



That part is essentially correct. The only real function of a GJ is to determine whether or not a crime has been committed. They don't need a defendant/suspect.

Many times, a prosecutor will get an indictment because once they get a suspect, it is then easier to get warrants for search, surveillance, arrests ...





_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Protection or persecution? - 3/20/2014 1:32:14 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		That may be your ideas on what is a weapon and what is not...but it is not the schools... They have every right to make the rules and enforce them.. In many schools knives of any kind are not tolerated...he screwed up. That said I do believe that zero tolerance policies like this need to be amended with common sense judgments. This should not have gone past a meeting with administrators, the parents, if still in their care, and the boy.

The only debate should be on the severity of the punishment... there is no doubt to his guilt.

Making excuses will not work... like I said the school does not know his job and it is not their place to accommodate it. A knife is a knife no matter the configuration.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/20/2014 1:52:42 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Protection or persecution? - 3/20/2014 2:04:24 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

I was taught many moons ago that a Grand Jury existed as a check to make sure that an action someone had been arrested for was actually a crime under current law as understood by a panel of regular citizens.



That part is essentially correct. The only real function of a GJ is to determine whether or not a crime has been committed. They don't need a defendant/suspect.







I had thought that the absolute role of a Grand Jury was to conduct a basic test of the evidence to determine whether there was probable cause to believe that a suspect had committed a crime.

But, I stand corrected, and I apologise to DS.

Unless of course, he's talking shit.


_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Protection or persecution? - 3/20/2014 2:10:02 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_jury

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Protection or persecution? - 3/20/2014 2:51:18 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Ok guys, what do you think. Is this protection of students or ridiculous persecution?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/18/high-school-senior-jailed-kicked-out-school-and-may-lose-army-dream-because/?intcmp=obnetwork




No Recruiter is going to do anything but laugh at this.

And then put the kid in charge of a missile silo.

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Protection or persecution? - 3/20/2014 5:34:40 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Ok guys, what do you think. Is this protection of students or ridiculous persecution?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/18/high-school-senior-jailed-kicked-out-school-and-may-lose-army-dream-because/?intcmp=obnetwork




No Recruiter is going to do anything but laugh at this.

And then put the kid in charge of a missile silo.

According to the Huffington article posted earlier his enlistment has already been canceled
unless he gets an acquitted or the charges are dropped by then.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Protection or persecution? - 3/20/2014 8:24:57 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

That may be your ideas on what is a weapon and what is not...but it is not the schools... They have every right to make the rules and enforce them.. In many schools knives of any kind are not tolerated...he screwed up. That said I do believe that zero tolerance policies like this need to be amended with common sense judgments. This should not have gone past a meeting with administrators, the parents, if still in their care, and the boy.

The only debate should be on the severity of the punishment... there is no doubt to his guilt.

Making excuses will not work... like I said the school does not know his job and it is not their place to accommodate it. A knife is a knife no matter the configuration.

Butch


On the contrary; I totally challenge the right of a school administration to make up arbitrary rules on what is a weapon and what is not. What constitutes a weapon and what constitutes endangerment to the public is a matter for the rule of law and not administrative whim by school officials. i.e. In the jurisdiction I live in it is unlawful to carry a firearm on the property of a school (statewide statute) or to sell alcoholic beverages or tobacco within 500 feet of the boundary of school property (city zoning ordnance). Here, the kids could have been reprimanded for having material against school rules but there would have been no basis for legal charges with what he had locked in his car. The school would not have been able to search his car without his permission but would have had to call local law enforcement who would have to have reasonable probable cause to search his vehicle.

I see a huge debate over whether there is any legal basis to charges whatsoever. The most he should have received was a suspension for violation of school rules.

Felony charges for legal items kept in a location where they could harm no one is totally ridiculous.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Protection or persecution? - 3/20/2014 8:33:46 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

On the contrary; I totally challenge the right of a school administration to make up arbitrary rules on what is a weapon and what is not.


You can challenge all you want... they have the right... they enforced it...the law has backed it up...and there is nothing that can be done about it... there will be no successful court challenge... and this rule will only change if the school itself wants to change it.

They don't care nor need to care what we think is a weapon or whether we think the rule is fair.

Myself I agree with the rule but not when circumstances are not considered in its application. I think this should have been an administrative punishment such as a temporary expulsion along with a final warning that went no further than the school.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/20/2014 8:37:55 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Protection or persecution? - 3/20/2014 9:01:55 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

That may be your ideas on what is a weapon and what is not...but it is not the schools... They have every right to make the rules and enforce them.. In many schools knives of any kind are not tolerated...he screwed up. That said I do believe that zero tolerance policies like this need to be amended with common sense judgments. This should not have gone past a meeting with administrators, the parents, if still in their care, and the boy.

The only debate should be on the severity of the punishment... there is no doubt to his guilt.

Making excuses will not work... like I said the school does not know his job and it is not their place to accommodate it. A knife is a knife no matter the configuration.

Butch

He said he realizes that he made a mistake and isn't arguing with the suspension
But says the felony charges are ridiculous.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Protection or persecution? - 3/20/2014 9:03:18 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I agree...unless there is some important information we are not privy to.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Protection or persecution? - 3/20/2014 9:07:43 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I agree...unless there is some important information we are not privy to.

Butch

There is now opinion that should not be subject to change with the right information.
It is my opinion that the sun will come up in the morning
If I find out in ten minutes that it has exploded I would have to alter that view.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 58
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