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American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 6:59:51 AM   
vincentML


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Equal access to education? Good luck with that?

Students of color receive more punishment and have less access to experienced teachers beginning as early as preschool.

Black students in public schools are suspended at triple the rate as white students.

Proportionally more are referred to law enforcement and more are arrested for crimes in school.

More troubling: "Students with disabilities make up one-fourth of students referred to law enforcement or arrested, although they represent 13 percent of the student population. Students with disabilities are twice as likely to be suspended out of school than peers, with 13 percent of such students being sent home for misbehaving. One of four boy students of color who have disabilities and one in five girl students of color who have disabilities were suspended. Students of color include all non-white ethnic groups except Latino and Asian-American."

I realize this is a sensitive topic and people with divergent views might remain silent for fear of being labeled racist. I hope this will not happen here. I think this topic needs an open and fearless discussion. So, your thoughts please. Is the data the result of systematic racism in the schools as the article claims or are there other issues to be considered? What can be done to correct the problem?
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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 7:50:00 AM   
Zonie63


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I'd be interested in seeing the data broken down by region/state/district. It might give some insight as to where, specifically, this is happening to a higher degree than elsewhere. I can't tell if this phenomenon is across the board throughout America or if there may be some districts where this is happening much more (which would raise the overall national average).

I would also be interested in seeing any data from private or parochial schools.

This part of the article also struck me:

quote:

According to the new data, disparities begin as early as preschool. Black students make up 18 percent of preschool enrollment, but they comprise 48 percent of preschool students receiving more than one suspension out of school. White students, representing 43 percent of preschool students, only receive 26 percent of out-of-school suspensions more than once.


How the hell does somebody get suspended from preschool?

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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 8:19:49 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Equal access to education? Good luck with that?
Students of color receive more punishment and have less access to experienced teachers beginning as early as preschool.
Black students in public schools are suspended at triple the rate as white students.
Proportionally more are referred to law enforcement and more are arrested for crimes in school.
More troubling: "Students with disabilities make up one-fourth of students referred to law enforcement or arrested, although they represent 13 percent of the student population. Students with disabilities are twice as likely to be suspended out of school than peers, with 13 percent of such students being sent home for misbehaving. One of four boy students of color who have disabilities and one in five girl students of color who have disabilities were suspended. Students of color include all non-white ethnic groups except Latino and Asian-American."
I realize this is a sensitive topic and people with divergent views might remain silent for fear of being labeled racist. I hope this will not happen here. I think this topic needs an open and fearless discussion. So, your thoughts please. Is the data the result of systematic racism in the schools as the article claims or are there other issues to be considered? What can be done to correct the problem?
ARTICLE


What the HuffPo article doesn't address, is whether or not the investigation was proper. For instance, if 100% of all students that commit some action that requires law enforcement were referred to law enforcement, would it be racist if 75% of the students committing the action were white?

If only black students are being referred and other students aren't being referred, for the same issue, there may be truth to the racist claim. It might also have something to do with prior infractions, too. If no students are referred until their 3rd incident, and only one race has students getting 3 incidents, it's not a racist thing that only that race is being referred.

If blacks students commit more infractions than students of any other race, would it be a surprise for more black students to be corrected? Note that I'm not claiming they do, but questioning whether or not the investigation took everything into account.

As far as the teacher quality goes, that's not necessarily racist, either. Unions are, typically, based greatly on seniority. In a School District, if a teacher with higher seniority chooses to move out of an inner city, with students that are predominantly black, forcing the position to be filled by a teacher with less seniority, is that racist of the District, the seniority teacher, both, or neither? It can only be 2 of those 4. That's not on the District.

Would a School District want experienced or inexperienced teachers? I'm absolutely sure that most School Districts would rather have experienced teachers leading their students. If an experienced teacher decides to jump from a large city District to a suburban District, whose fault is that? If there isn't an experienced teacher to fill that void, isn't an inexperienced teacher more desirable to either not filling the position, or filling it with someone who isn't even trained as a teacher?

If you follow the links, you will eventually get to an Excel file (HERE) that shows the breakdowns. The file is a racial demographic survey, but doesn't prove any racism, as there is nothing showing that any race is being discriminated against. And, each table in the file has a listing of 4 caveats that pertain to some of the data in the table:
    quote:

    ‡ Estimate has been suppressed. Associated standard error exceeds 50 percent of the estimate.
    ! Associated standard error exceeds 30 percent of the estimate.  Interpret data with caution.
    ¡ Interpret data with caution.  Estimate has been flagged for large differences from other reported data sources from the U.S. Department of Education.
    1 Interpret data with Caution.  Estimate presented is a subtotal associated with a grand total that has been flagged for being different from other U.S. Department of Education data sources.


So, the data that has been presented may or may not even be accurate (which means it could be better or worse than presented).

I think we need to wait to see if the racial demographics of students that performed a certain act compared to the demographics of the District's response(s) to those students, shows there is racism in action or not.


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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 2:41:32 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I'd be interested in seeing the data broken down by region/state/district. It might give some insight as to where, specifically, this is happening to a higher degree than elsewhere. I can't tell if this phenomenon is across the board throughout America or if there may be some districts where this is happening much more (which would raise the overall national average).

I would also be interested in seeing any data from private or parochial schools.

This part of the article also struck me:

quote:

According to the new data, disparities begin as early as preschool. Black students make up 18 percent of preschool enrollment, but they comprise 48 percent of preschool students receiving more than one suspension out of school. White students, representing 43 percent of preschool students, only receive 26 percent of out-of-school suspensions more than once.


How the hell does somebody get suspended from preschool?

Here is a link to the most recent data. DATA 2011-2012
Unfortunately, you will find tables of data in different categories. One table will give you students punished by race for a school or school district but you will have to seek out a different table for enrollment by race. It is a Herculean task, I fear.

I find the preschool suspension data of interest because it hints at a framework of expectations that might follow these kids through the rest of their school experience.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 3/21/2014 2:47:38 PM >

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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 2:41:47 PM   
Phydeaux


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Oh probably less so than canadian ones:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crr.ca%2Fdivers-files%2Fen%2Fpub%2FfaSh%2FePubFaShRacScho.pdf&ei=x7EsU_WwBtPC2gWsoIDQBg&usg=AFQjCNE-q0RU0z0F23t0rfq3Pmn_kAcxLg&sig2=JRsK4cUBlydsRAokp-FomA&bvm=bv.62922401,d.b2I

http://wiki.ubc.ca/Racism_in_Canadian_Schools_%28Teaching_and_Learning%29


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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 2:51:59 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Black students in public schools are suspended at triple the rate as white students.

Whether that is "racist" or simply appropriate depends on what they're being suspended for and how that compares with what white kids get suspended for.

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/21/2014 2:54:39 PM >

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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 3:07:29 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

What the HuffPo article doesn't address, is whether or not the investigation was proper. For instance, if 100% of all students that commit some action that requires law enforcement were referred to law enforcement, would it be racist if 75% of the students committing the action were white?

If only black students are being referred and other students aren't being referred, for the same issue, there may be truth to the racist claim. It might also have something to do with prior infractions, too. If no students are referred until their 3rd incident, and only one race has students getting 3 incidents, it's not a racist thing that only that race is being referred.

If blacks students commit more infractions than students of any other race, would it be a surprise for more black students to be corrected? Note that I'm not claiming they do, but questioning whether or not the investigation took everything into account.

Let me point out that this is not a field study but a self-reporting collection of data submitted by all school districts, so I fail to see the relevance of a "proper investigation."

However, I do not discount the points you make about the behavior of the students. I don't think the data is available to get to such a fine understanding and as I pointed out above to Zonie these are only tables of raw data, and the tables are not collated (if that is the right word)

So, we are presented with raw data that reflects poorly on the ideal of equal access to education for children of color and children with disabilities. If we accept the data at face value we are left with the question of why is it so?

quote:

Would a School District want experienced or inexperienced teachers? I'm absolutely sure that most School Districts would rather have experienced teachers leading their students. If an experienced teacher decides to jump from a large city District to a suburban District, whose fault is that? If there isn't an experienced teacher to fill that void, isn't an inexperienced teacher more desirable to either not filling the position, or filling it with someone who isn't even trained as a teacher?


Yeah, this is an interesting issue. There are two sides to it. Starting my experience as a new teacher to Miami, FL (I had a few years teaching in suburban NJ schools) I was assigned to the first integrated faculty (by court order) in an all black student middle school. We were the first white teachers they had ever experienced. On the one hand there was a culture gap that I had to learn to bridge. On the other hand I had an enthusiasm that I lacked nearer to the end of my tenure when I experienced "burn out." So, I am not so sure having young teachers in poor schools is what makes the schools poor. There is much to be said for enthusiasm if it is properly guided. I was fortunate to get that guidance from an experienced Administrator.

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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 3:08:56 PM   
Musicmystery


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I've seen quite a few studies conclude "racism" that was better attributed to the socio-economic status of the population studied.

That status may well be exacerbated by racism--but the studies didn't consider that, to me, clearly more obvious hypothesis.

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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 3:13:33 PM   
GoddessManko


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Darn dangerous preschoolers. :)

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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 3:16:00 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Black students in public schools are suspended at triple the rate as white students.

Whether that is "racist" or simply appropriate depends on what they're being suspended for and how that compares with what white kids get suspended for.

K.





Yes, good point. If we assume the deeds merited discipline you are correct. But looking back through the "fog of war" it is difficult to tell if the student acted without cause or if he/she was provoked by some other student or by an impatient teacher. I think it would require a very in depth study of cases to learn the truth. So, we are left with the raw numbers and they suggest there is something wrong beyond what instigated the behavior. If black kids are acting out without provocation they are either a generation of thugs or there is more to the issue than we can perceive.

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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 3:21:03 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I've seen quite a few studies conclude "racism" that was better attributed to the socio-economic status of the population studied.

That status may well be exacerbated by racism--but the studies didn't consider that, to me, clearly more obvious hypothesis.

Yep, absolutely. But again, this is not a study. It is a collection of raw data. However, I agree it is a socio-economic issue the schools are faced with. They cannot change the demographics, however. So maybe there has to be changes in how the schools accept the students.

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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 3:22:08 PM   
Arturas


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quote:

Is the data the result of systematic racism in the schools as the article claims or are there other issues to be considered? What can be done to correct the problem?


No. It is not. There other issues. These boys get in trouble not because of the school but because they have no father or good male role model in the home, statistically.

On the other hand, I can understand why many think the schools are racist since they allow "white is beautiful" and "white power" T-shirts and buttons to be worn at schools and they now recognize "white history month" and support "white studies" groups and allow white boys to wear belts to hold their pants up to conceal their underwear. Imagine.

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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 3:24:03 PM   
DaddySatyr


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Different schools have different rules; although most have some form of "zero tolerance" bullshit. There are some differences, I'm sure.

Just as an example, a student in Hollister might bring a BB Gun to school and get suspended/expelled while a student in Fargo might do the same thing and get told to leave it in the principal's office.

It's a huge hill to climb but I'd rather see individual numbers from schools (or even districts, I suppose) but even in some of the bigger school systems, you can have schools that are almost entirely white and schools that are almost entirely non-white.

To me, that makes anything other than a very specific comparison kind of skewed.





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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 3:25:41 PM   
GoddessManko


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I had to threaten my niece's first kindergarten teacher's job. She called her a loser, I called the superintendent. (Only got the secretary).
She called me furiously ranting I risked her job, I was laughing in my mind. My niece switched classes, she's been on the honor roll ever since. She's also the highest reader in the fifth grade and always mentioned in the morning announcements. Was it racism? Likely. But it was only one teacher, her kindergarten one. She had other caucasian teachers and no issues. The one she has now is possibly racist but she can't really change the grades at this point, now can she? But yea, I dealt with it myself in high school. My gym teacher kept me off the honor roll. She failed most minority students. Had to take freaking gym to graduate and I legpress 450 lbs, and back then I was an ace vball player before moving to this school. :)

< Message edited by GoddessManko -- 3/21/2014 3:29:17 PM >


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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 8:49:54 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

What the HuffPo article doesn't address, is whether or not the investigation was proper. For instance, if 100% of all students that commit some action that requires law enforcement were referred to law enforcement, would it be racist if 75% of the students committing the action were white?
If only black students are being referred and other students aren't being referred, for the same issue, there may be truth to the racist claim. It might also have something to do with prior infractions, too. If no students are referred until their 3rd incident, and only one race has students getting 3 incidents, it's not a racist thing that only that race is being referred.
If blacks students commit more infractions than students of any other race, would it be a surprise for more black students to be corrected? Note that I'm not claiming they do, but questioning whether or not the investigation took everything into account.

Let me point out that this is not a field study but a self-reporting collection of data submitted by all school districts, so I fail to see the relevance of a "proper investigation."
However, I do not discount the points you make about the behavior of the students. I don't think the data is available to get to such a fine understanding and as I pointed out above to Zonie these are only tables of raw data, and the tables are not collated (if that is the right word)
So, we are presented with raw data that reflects poorly on the ideal of equal access to education for children of color and children with disabilities. If we accept the data at face value we are left with the question of why is it so?


But, we are being told it's racism. The data is being used to prove that it's racism. Worse yet, if there isn't a "proper investigation" into why this data is as it is, and policy is drafted based solely on the data, then it's going to be a disaster, unless we're ridiculously lucky they get it right.

Analysis is being drawn from the raw data, without investigation as to why. We're already being told it's racism. My contention is that it's inconclusive; neither proving nor disproving the racism claim.

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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 9:21:11 PM   
kdsub


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I am just wondering if you took black out of your post and replaced it with economically depressed if you would still have close to the same statistics?

In my area black students are held to the same rules and regulations as whites... They still have many more problems in school both with discipline and test scores...why?

It is not because these kids are stupid... or the school teachers are racists... I believe it is because of past discrimination in both jobs and education which now manifests itself in a poorer economic standards for blacks than whites in general.

Black children do not have the support or help in their studies as white children do... their parents are just not as well educated. Money makes a big difference as well... home laptops and tablets common among whites are harder to come by for blacks when there is not enough money in the budget. When kids get behind in studies they often get in trouble... it is a defense mechanism in my opinion and a reason for many of the discipline problems.

I really do believe that there is little racism, in my school anyway, and as the economic standards of African Americans rise so does the school performance of the children. As usual the schools reflect the problems of society but at least now they don't enforce them.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/21/2014 9:49:25 PM >


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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 9:53:00 PM   
JeffBC


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Yes, America as a whole is still incredibly racist... at least against blacks. I suspect it permeates our society. I was just reading some disturbing numbers (again) regarding our legal system and blacks.

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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 10:52:03 PM   
DomKen


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I love the pontificating. Did no one actually go and find the Department of Education report?
http://ocrdata.ed.gov/Home
You can actually look at individual school districts and even individual schools and the results are very troubling.

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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/21/2014 11:35:50 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Black students in public schools are suspended at triple the rate as white students.

Whether that is "racist" or simply appropriate depends on what they're being suspended for and how that compares with what white kids get suspended for.

Yes, good point. If we assume the deeds merited discipline you are correct. But looking back through the "fog of war" it is difficult to tell if the student acted without cause or if he/she was provoked by some other student or by an impatient teacher. I think it would require a very in depth study of cases to learn the truth. So, we are left with the raw numbers and they suggest there is something wrong beyond what instigated the behavior. If black kids are acting out without provocation they are either a generation of thugs or there is more to the issue than we can perceive.

Well, I can offer some input on what kinds of things white kids and black kids get suspended for:


Image credt: The Color of Discipline: Sources of Racial and Gender Disproportionality in School Punishment

However, the above source notes that offenses where blacks predominate, like disrespect, excessive noise, and threat involve subjective judgments, which provides an open door for the operation of stereotypes. And with regard to threat, at least, clear and competent threat assessment guidelines have proven beneficial:

Specifically, the report finds that:
●  Schools implementing threat assessment had smaller racial disparities in their long-term suspension rates; and
●  Threat assessment was associated with lower rates of out-of-school suspension overall: 15 percent fewer students received short-term suspensions and 25 percent fewer students received long-term suspensions in schools using threat assessment.
~Source

So we're making progress.

K.


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/21/2014 11:51:53 PM >

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RE: American Schools Still Racist? - 3/22/2014 12:46:15 AM   
Arturas


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quote:

it is difficult to tell if the student acted without cause or if he/she was provoked by some other student or by an impatient teacher. I think it would require a very in depth study of cases to learn the truth.


Threatening or using loud voice is not allowed no matter what the reason. You see, when you start making that kind of analysis then discipline goes out the door. Instead, you simply do not make allowances for what are subjectively presented causals and do not tolerate the outburst or the threat. Period. End of problem as opposed to apologizing for the behavior with subjective causals and going down that slippery slope. I am sure when our Math teacher held all the boys back after school in 7th grade clean the gym showers for several hours, he was "impatient" and very right to be, we screwed up.

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