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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/29/2014 11:17:08 AM

dcnovice

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I wondered if anyone would remember that.

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/29/2014 11:20:18 AM

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A rating system based on any arbitrary point is the beginning to censorship. There have already been successful efforts at removing the n-word from Huckleberry Finn, which were unnecessary since the whole point to Twain's "excessive" use of the word was to promote civilized discussion and to eliminate it eventually. I'm another one who read way above my grade level and all sorts of books when I was a kid. Among them was Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land, which had graphic sex and descriptions of poly relationships. Those went way over my 10 year old head But part of Valentine Michael Smith's message stuck with me and that was that everything is good as long as nobody is seriously hurt and all consent to whatever is going on. Sounds kinda familiar, don't it?

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/29/2014 1:13:08 PM

njlauren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger

A rating system based on any arbitrary point is the beginning to censorship. There have already been successful efforts at removing the n-word from Huckleberry Finn, which were unnecessary since the whole point to Twain's "excessive" use of the word was to promote civilized discussion and to eliminate it eventually. I'm another one who read way above my grade level and all sorts of books when I was a kid. Among them was Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land, which had graphic sex and descriptions of poly relationships. Those went way over my 10 year old head But part of Valentine Michael Smith's message stuck with me and that was that everything is good as long as nobody is seriously hurt and all consent to whatever is going on. Sounds kinda familiar, don't it?

You hit the nail on the head with that thinking, because to censor books, you need to have a basis to censor them, that says "this book is good", "This books is bad".

The problem is the rating system used reflects the values of those who create them. I think of movie ratings and how fucked up they are. A PG13 movie can have some really sick scenes in it, with violence, but the ratings people can give an R or worse to a movie with sex in it (among other things, the "family values crowd" screams and yells about sex in movies, about gays being portrayed as normal, etc, but seem to have no problems with violence, there have been several great articles written about the religious right that pointed out that the same parent who objected to sex in movies, thought it was fine for young kids to watch violent war movies and such). I would much rather a kid watch sex or hear 'bad words' then see the kind of violence I have seen in some movies that were rated PG or PG13.

So you can have a book someone rates "adult", let's say 8 of 10, because it has scenes with sex in them but give a young adult rating (let's say Hunger Games) that has some really nasty violence and killing in it....

If parents have questions about books, they can read places like Good Reads and see what people say about the contents, you get a much better idea of what is in the book from a cross section like that, and you also judge people's objections. Rather than the book being given an 8 cause the rater didn't like images of gay sex, a parent could read that reviewers were objecting to gays being seen as 'normal' and realize the bias of the person writing it, or if someone else went on a harrang because the book didn't support "feminist" language, whatever...you can at least see biases at work there, with a rating, you can't.

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/29/2014 1:38:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger

A rating system based on any arbitrary point is the beginning to censorship. There have already been successful efforts at removing the n-word from Huckleberry Finn, which were unnecessary since the whole point to Twain's "excessive" use of the word was to promote civilized discussion and to eliminate it eventually.

Even if that wasn't the point, it seems weird to me to remove it. Why can't we look at books as products of their time and use them as a starting point to discuss cultural differences and such?

I don't know if she's well known outside the UK, but Enid Blyton wrote a ton of children's books during her lifetime and she comes in for a lot of criticism for all sorts of reasons like class and gender roles. But a number of her works, even for very young children, seem to be censored now. I got my daughter a modern copy of a book I read when I was five or so and some elements of the story had been censored to remove any reference to children getting hit as discipline at school. Some of her books also remove one of the characters who is seen as a racist stereotype. I'd much rather my child read the original and we have a conversation about changing attitudes than someone else decides for me what my child is too fragile to cope with.

Censoring things denies us the opportunity to reflect on tough issues in a safe environment, and that's something that's really good for kids.

I guess that goes back to Jeff's comment about kids needing parents rather than books needing restrictions.

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/29/2014 2:00:07 PM

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I really wish this was a topic about media censorship because I could really get into it.
I heard rap music for the first time when I was 13. It was Snoop Doggy Dog and I thought it was the most shocking thing I had ever heard in my life. My mouth literally dropped throughout one of his entire songs in shock. My niece told me her teachers sometimes cuss and one used the "p" word.
Well, that didn't sit well with me because I grew up in such a STRICT and disciplined sort of society. Unfortunately it's why I feel I sometimes am not sure how to act or react to people here.
Our teachers broke rulers on our legs, here students address them as peers. That alone blew my mind, believe it or not. It was a culture shock, yes.
My niece is very American and so I have to accept she will grow up in a culturally exploratory sort of way and be exposed to things I would never dream of at her age.
I love it here, I love the people here. It taught me the beauty of diversity and though imperfect, people will sometimes fight and crawl to do what they deem to be the right thing.
As far as books or movies go, I have never seen Roots. Apparently that's a big deal because I'm black but I wrote a 27 page paper on slavery, I don't see the value in rehashing it visually but I'm going to try to see 12 Years a slave if I can to see all the hullabaloo about Lupita beyond her fashion savvy. I'm not thrilled about the idea of my niece or other young minds reading Huck Finn because I believe it is dated. However it is very mild compared to disciplinary actions I have read about at the height of the Transatlantic trade so not a huge deal, hopefully they get through the novel quickly.
I think real world exposure is going to happen, bottom line.But before it happens kids should be eased into knowing what it means, what it represents and have their own set of beliefs carved in stone, come what may. That's the job of the parents but as they get older it's inevitable they will get influenced by their peers, just a part of growing up.
Do I think a child should read anything? We all know there are limits everywhere in life including in this area.I think the decision is for the parents. During my time living on a nudist colony there were entire families there. Is it my job to tell others how to raise their kids? No. But it is to know those kids will possibly be interacting with the ones in my family.

I think acceptance of different sexes, religions, cultures etc is important and that shouldn't be censored. I realized how close minded I was when I was 16, it was my first day at a public school and I saw a goth for the first time and was shocked no one else was freaked out by it. Then she sat behind me in science class and realized she was actually a nice girl. Empathy and understanding is important for everyone (I'm working on it!). Should they subscribe to everything? Not necessarily. Should they experiment? Within reasonable boundaries. I think kids are impressionable in terms of sex, and some girls think getting wasted to pass out and have 20 guys gang bang her is "sexual liberation", when it's not. It's comfort with yourself, your body and your choices in personal relationships.
More important than censorship is knowledge that these things exist and some guidance and scope in what it all means and not to glorify bad behavior.
If your child finds your illicit literature that's one thing.But to thumb the pages with them or read it to them as bedtime stories is something different entirely. Pushing the envelope is fine, but how far? And there IS such a thing as TOO FAR.
Sorry to go into a tangent beyond literature, I just thought starting another thread would be silly.

< Message edited by GoddessManko -- 3/29/2014 2:14:15 PM >

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/29/2014 3:39:36 PM

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It is a tough call.. I was a very precocious reader as a child. I read books about topics and with content that my parents probably would NOT have liked; to a degree I attribute some of my kinky tendencies towards this. The one plus

back then there was no "google" so I could not easily find the answers to some questions! On the other hand...I feel I was exposed to concepts, ideas, history early on and became more aware of the world.

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/29/2014 3:58:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss

It is a tough call.. I was a very precocious reader as a child. I read books about topics and with content that my parents probably would NOT have liked; to a degree I attribute some of my kinky tendencies towards this. The one plus back then there was no "google" so I could not easily find the answers to some questions! On the other hand...I feel I was exposed to concepts, ideas, history early on and became more aware of the world.

So how is that a tough call? It sounds more like the absence of censorship did you a lot more good than harm.

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/29/2014 7:15:20 PM

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Actually, the only book I've ever interfered with my kids reading is Night by Elie Wiesel. It's such a disturbing book that I insisted it be read only in daytime, so as not to cause nightmares.

A very important book but also very upsetting.

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/29/2014 7:35:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: amaidiamond

Hi everyone,

I was chatting about the infamous "50 Shades" the other day and into my head popped something I had not thought of before. We as a society have age restrictions on certain products, Films that show graphic scenes, Magazines with sexual pictures, websites with erotic written content etc etc.... but nothing in regards to books.

Now whatever your thoughts on 50 shades and books of its ilk, there is no denying that some of the content is very explicit. Graphic sex scenes, BDSM etc... and not just that book, other books containing murder, violence, child molestation etc. If these books were movies they would have an 18/R rating slapped on them fast as anything.

There is also the question of how much impact books, and the written word can shape a person. Using 50 Shades again as an example, the main male character is a rather disturbed individual with pretty major issues and yet millions of women are swooning over him and his written actions, could reading something like that book lead to for example a young person growing up to be a certain way under the belief it is how women/men want them to be)

So, should books be regulated? How young is too young? If an young person should go to a store and wish to purchase a copy of 50 Shades etc is it appropriate to sell it to them?

I am interested in everyone's opinion, I am not yet sure which side of the fence I stand on as I see both good and bad points to each option but it is something that has had me thinking.

One phrase stands out "we as a society...". No, I do not believe that 'we as a society' should place age restrictions on reading material. I am one of those people that believes the adults responsible are the ones that place restrictions. My mother did, I did with my children.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 3/29/2014 7:36:14 PM >

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/29/2014 9:30:27 PM

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ORIGINAL: Baldrick

I think no as well but I think there should be a rating system like movies, so people will know what might be age inappropriate

This.

When my daughter was young, she would buy books, especially manga and being a "cartoon" I figured it was innocent enough. One day she had one sitting on the table and I peeked into it while cleaning up. I quickly learned all about manga during that time!

Had there been a rating system on them, I would have been extremely reticent on allowing her to buy them.

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/29/2014 10:31:54 PM

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Hmm, no way.
If my kids read with half the enthusiasm I had I'll be a very happy dad.

I think I started pursuing my own literary interests with comic books at around 11-13yrs, and loved the fuck out of them! That first taste of adult themes and concepts!
I used to live in a country dirt town back then so getting into town on my pushbike and escaping from the HEAAATTT in the comic book store has very fond memories. Something I absolutely would want my kids to have!

I never had a relationship with the library, but I've dated people who had. And I thought it was very sweet. Going to the library and searching all the hiding spots to find my girl curled up in a chair reading whatever it was after her shift! Haha
Very cute.

Reading is absolutely something that should be unrestricted!

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 3/29/2014 10:32:47 PM >

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/30/2014 7:04:26 AM

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quote:

I'd much rather my child read the original and we have a conversation about changing attitudes than someone else decides for me what my child is too fragile to cope with.

Censoring things denies us the opportunity to reflect on tough issues in a safe environment, and that's something that's really good for kids.

My church recently lost an active member who was over 100 years old. Parents often framed discussions with their children about societal changes by saying "When Mrs X was your age..." or "When Mrs X was my age..."

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/30/2014 7:08:01 AM

kalikshama

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ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Actually, the only book I've ever interfered with my kids reading is Night by Elie Wiesel. It's such a disturbing book that I insisted it be read only in daytime, so as not to cause nightmares.

A very important book but also very upsetting.

I was just thinking that "Schindler's List" should be shown in high schools, and pondering at what grade level.

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/30/2014 7:17:03 AM

AthenaSurrenders

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Sure, I didn't mean to imply it was the only way to bring those things up. It just seems that books provide a convenient and valuable way to do that. I could talk to my child about an issue but then she's only hearing my interpretation of it. A piece of fiction that deals with it will show the characters reacting to it in context. I just think it gives another type of insight. It might also raise issues that I haven't considered bringing up. Or give me a starting point when it's hard to know how to open a conversation. Not just historical things, of course. We have a picture book called 'Mummy never told me' which (very lightly) touches on teen pregnancy, gay and lesbian couples, why mummy and daddy close the door at night... if you read the amazon reviews you'll see some people are horrified that the book mentions such things, and other people are delighted at having a book bring them up in a gentle way. I'm firmly in the second camp, and I dread to think what age restriction might be placed on such a book depending on which group of people were allowed to decide.

It's largely moot at this age anyway but these days are coming and I'm trying to figure out how we'll deal with it.

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/30/2014 8:00:54 AM

kalikshama

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Sorry, I should have added that it's important to have these conversations, and the more vehicles, the better :)

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/30/2014 8:12:13 AM

AthenaSurrenders

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Actually, the only book I've ever interfered with my kids reading is Night by Elie Wiesel. It's such a disturbing book that I insisted it be read only in daytime, so as not to cause nightmares.

A very important book but also very upsetting.

I was just thinking that "Schindler's List" should be shown in high schools, and pondering at what grade level.

It was shown at my school, I think we were about 14.

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/30/2014 11:57:18 AM

calamitysandra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Actually, the only book I've ever interfered with my kids reading is Night by Elie Wiesel. It's such a disturbing book that I insisted it be read only in daytime, so as not to cause nightmares.

A very important book but also very upsetting.

I was just thinking that "Schindler's List" should be shown in high schools, and pondering at what grade level.

We went to see it when it came out, I was 15.
Since then it has been a standart fixture in german history classrooms. As far as I can tell, it is mostly shown between grades 5 and 7, 8 at the latest. Making the kids 10/11 to 12/13 years old.
My oldest saw it once in 5th grade, during philosophy class, and once in history class, at the start of grade 7.

Put me down as a "no" vote too.
I have been a voracious reader from a young age, reading everything I could get my hands on. It did me good.

When parenting, we believe that if a child can understand it, he can read it, and if he does not understand it, he is not likely to have the staying power to keep reading.
We actively foster an environment that encourages them to read everything they want, and let them know that we are always open for discussions and explanations.

< Message edited by calamitysandra -- 3/30/2014 12:02:58 PM >

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/30/2014 7:03:33 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Actually, the only book I've ever interfered with my kids reading is Night by Elie Wiesel. It's such a disturbing book that I insisted it be read only in daytime, so as not to cause nightmares.

A very important book but also very upsetting.

The only book I've ever cautioned people about reading is, the Bible.

Too few are educated enough to read it.

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/30/2014 7:04:54 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

Hmm, no way.
If my kids read with half the enthusiasm I had I'll be a very happy dad.

I think I started pursuing my own literary interests with comic books at around 11-13yrs, and loved the fuck out of them! That first taste of adult themes and concepts!
I used to live in a country dirt town back then so getting into town on my pushbike and escaping from the HEAAATTT in the comic book store has very fond memories. Something I absolutely would want my kids to have!

I never had a relationship with the library, but I've dated people who had. And I thought it was very sweet. Going to the library and searching all the hiding spots to find my girl curled up in a chair reading whatever it was after her shift! Haha
Very cute.

Reading is absolutely something that should be unrestricted!

Ain't no such thing as a bad book (just ill prepared readers).

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RE: Should books be subject to age restrictions? - 3/30/2014 7:09:42 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Actually, the only book I've ever interfered with my kids reading is Night by Elie Wiesel. It's such a disturbing book that I insisted it be read only in daytime, so as not to cause nightmares.

A very important book but also very upsetting.

I was just thinking that "Schindler's List" should be shown in high schools, and pondering at what grade level.

I didn't see that movie for 8 years because I was certain I'd cry through most of it, knew it'd be intense on every level (right on both accounts). I think understanding the pain inherent in it is a prerequisite to watching it.

I doubt most under 40 could grasp the horror and would see it mostly as a history lesson.

(Much like most people under 30 probably envision Kennedy much like those of us over 50 see Truman or Eisenhower....a real person, no doubt, but still....some guy in a book. No real meat).

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