RE: Who Worries about Global Warming?

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JeffBC -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 11:03:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Arguing "stupid Republicans" doesn't explain why worry over global warming isn't eating up many Independents either. Anyone have any views on that? I can't speak for "many independents". I can only speak for myself. I do worry about global warming. It's just I worry WAY more about Corporatism/Fascism and the rise of the American police state. I know global warming is going to be a bad deal. But the political issues I noted are much more immediate and much more threatening in every way.

Phydeaux -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 11:04:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 FR It's not so much as a doomsday scenario as many people think, and I feel that is why there is such a pushback on the issue on climate change. Yes we will have harsher seasonal extremes (colder winters, hotter, drier summers), yes we will see increased sea level rises, yes we will see more intense storms. But it doesn't mean the END. Humans will adapt, that much is obvious. But it will result in more difficult situations for people living decades from now. Drier summers will be mean crops will have a harder time growing, sea level increased by as much as a meter will displace a lot of people living on the coasts, and more intense storms will result in damages that will cost more than the actions that could be taken to mitigate the effects of climate change. Humans will be fine, we'll survive, but things will change and not for the better. I don't worry about climate change, because it's already beginning, with what we've put into the atmosphere there are changes that are going to happen regardless of our actions today. I worry about the ramifications of climate change and how many will have to suffer because a couple of morons refuse to listen to reason and the science. Just curious TKman. take Methane: ch4 +2O2----> co2 + 2H2O Since we are putting trillions of tonnes of C02 into the atmosphere, the means we are putting trillions of tonnes of water into the atmosphere as well. Now, since water is a greenhouse gas, can you explain a) how much you've considered whether the "rising seas" might be contributed to by this added water. b). why you're not concerned about the greenhouse gas effect of water. For the record, I know the answers to these. Just curious if you do.

Phydeaux -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 11:06:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 Lol, democrats talking about the extinguishment of the republican brand? If anything, dems have been saying the republican brand is going to extinguish themselves, and from the look of things they might be right [:D] Only in your world. In the real world the repubs have a very real chance of taking over congress in 2014.

Tkman117 -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 11:09:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 Lol, democrats talking about the extinguishment of the republican brand? If anything, dems have been saying the republican brand is going to extinguish themselves, and from the look of things they might be right [:D] Only in your world. In the real world the repubs have a very real chance of taking over congress in 2014. Well now that it's legal to buy democracy in your country I'd have a hard time disagreeing with you. Freedom...ha! [:D]

Tkman117 -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 11:17:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 FR It's not so much as a doomsday scenario as many people think, and I feel that is why there is such a pushback on the issue on climate change. Yes we will have harsher seasonal extremes (colder winters, hotter, drier summers), yes we will see increased sea level rises, yes we will see more intense storms. But it doesn't mean the END. Humans will adapt, that much is obvious. But it will result in more difficult situations for people living decades from now. Drier summers will be mean crops will have a harder time growing, sea level increased by as much as a meter will displace a lot of people living on the coasts, and more intense storms will result in damages that will cost more than the actions that could be taken to mitigate the effects of climate change. Humans will be fine, we'll survive, but things will change and not for the better. I don't worry about climate change, because it's already beginning, with what we've put into the atmosphere there are changes that are going to happen regardless of our actions today. I worry about the ramifications of climate change and how many will have to suffer because a couple of morons refuse to listen to reason and the science. Just curious TKman. take Methane: ch4 +2O2----> co2 + 2H2O Since we are putting trillions of tonnes of C02 into the atmosphere, the means we are putting trillions of tonnes of water into the atmosphere as well. Now, since water is a greenhouse gas, can you explain a) how much you've considered whether the "rising seas" might be contributed to by this added water. b). why you're not concerned about the greenhouse gas effect of water. For the record, I know the answers to these. Just curious if you do. a) Do you have any numbers of how much water has exactly been released by combustion? Because it seems like you forget ice sheets are melting, or are things still nice and cool up on Bullshit Mountain? [:D] b) Water vapour tends to form clouds when in the atmosphere, and while water vapour does act as a greenhouse gas, clouds also act create a cooling effect, which offsets part of the warming. You still don't get it, in no way am I saying that CO2 is the sole driver for all of these changes. I'm saying, and many others say, that CO2 is the boot which kicked the ball down the hill. It got the ball rolling. It's the factor which is causing numerous other factors to follow suit. The climate isn't a simple thing to model, other gases are going to respond to an increase in at least one other GHG. When one factor such as CO2 is expelled in such large quantities, you have to ask what effect it has on the atmosphere. And considering it's effect as a GHG, the effect will be significant in large enough amounts. And you and I both know the amounts are enormous when you consider the global use of fossil fuels.

Tkman117 -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 11:21:59 AM)
Not to mention if combustion reactions are really causing the rise in sea level, then doesn't that give my argument that we should abandon fossil fuels a little more backing? If fossil fuels are causing rising sea levels then you agree with me then that we should move away from them to avoid further problems? [:D]

Phydeaux -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 11:33:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 FR It's not so much as a doomsday scenario as many people think, and I feel that is why there is such a pushback on the issue on climate change. Yes we will have harsher seasonal extremes (colder winters, hotter, drier summers), yes we will see increased sea level rises, yes we will see more intense storms. But it doesn't mean the END. Humans will adapt, that much is obvious. But it will result in more difficult situations for people living decades from now. Drier summers will be mean crops will have a harder time growing, sea level increased by as much as a meter will displace a lot of people living on the coasts, and more intense storms will result in damages that will cost more than the actions that could be taken to mitigate the effects of climate change. Humans will be fine, we'll survive, but things will change and not for the better. I don't worry about climate change, because it's already beginning, with what we've put into the atmosphere there are changes that are going to happen regardless of our actions today. I worry about the ramifications of climate change and how many will have to suffer because a couple of morons refuse to listen to reason and the science. Just curious TKman. take Methane: ch4 +2O2----> co2 + 2H2O Since we are putting trillions of tonnes of C02 into the atmosphere, the means we are putting trillions of tonnes of water into the atmosphere as well. Now, since water is a greenhouse gas, can you explain a) how much you've considered whether the "rising seas" might be contributed to by this added water. b). why you're not concerned about the greenhouse gas effect of water. For the record, I know the answers to these. Just curious if you do. a) Do you have any numbers of how much water has exactly been released by combustion? Because it seems like you forget ice sheets are melting, or are things still nice and cool up on Bullshit Mountain? [:D] b) Water vapour tends to form clouds when in the atmosphere, and while water vapour does act as a greenhouse gas, clouds also act create a cooling effect, which offsets part of the warming. You still don't get it, in no way am I saying that CO2 is the sole driver for all of these changes. I'm saying, and many others say, that CO2 is the boot which kicked the ball down the hill. It got the ball rolling. It's the factor which is causing numerous other factors to follow suit. The climate isn't a simple thing to model, other gases are going to respond to an increase in at least one other GHG. When one factor such as CO2 is expelled in such large quantities, you have to ask what effect it has on the atmosphere. And considering it's effect as a GHG, the effect will be significant in large enough amounts. And you and I both know the amounts are enormous when you consider the global use of fossil fuels. Ah the first step toward being a denier. How delicious. Critical thinking. Careful. Your friends might ostracize you. Please lets not deflect the conversation to bullshit mountain. The question simply was if you'd considered the contribution of trillions of tonnes of H2O to sea levels. Clearly you haven't. Nor what the effect of removal of billions of tonnes of O2 might have. Its relatively simple to calculate how much the sea levels would rise, all other things being equal, with the generation of call it 2 trillion tonnes of water. Perhaps you'd care to show your proficiency with math and science and perform the calculations for us? It seems to me that this is an elementary question - that before you have an absolute conviction perhaps it might behoove one to actually consider other elements of the equation. Lets return to the question of clouds for a moment. You neglected to mention that in changing from vapor to condensate that huge amounts of heat are shed in the process. If you remember several of my previous points - this is one area that the IPCC models have been - in the words of Judith Curry - surprisingly and completely wrong.

MrRodgers -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 11:35:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 FR It's not so much as a doomsday scenario as many people think, and I feel that is why there is such a pushback on the issue on climate change. Yes we will have harsher seasonal extremes (colder winters, hotter, drier summers), yes we will see increased sea level rises, yes we will see more intense storms. But it doesn't mean the END. Humans will adapt, that much is obvious. But it will result in more difficult situations for people living decades from now. Drier summers will be mean crops will have a harder time growing, sea level increased by as much as a meter will displace a lot of people living on the coasts, and more intense storms will result in damages that will cost more than the actions that could be taken to mitigate the effects of climate change. Humans will be fine, we'll survive, but things will change and not for the better. I don't worry about climate change, because it's already beginning, with what we've put into the atmosphere there are changes that are going to happen regardless of our actions today. I worry about the ramifications of climate change and how many will have to suffer because a couple of morons refuse to listen to reason and the science. Just curious TKman. take Methane: ch4 +2O2----> co2 + 2H2O Since we are putting trillions of tonnes of C02 into the atmosphere, the means we are putting trillions of tonnes of water into the atmosphere as well. Now, since water is a greenhouse gas, can you explain a) how much you've considered whether the "rising seas" might be contributed to by this added water. b). why you're not concerned about the greenhouse gas effect of water. For the record, I know the answers to these. Just curious if you do. CO2 adds H2O ? How ? Warmer air holds more H2O but CO2 is not adding H2O to the atmosphere.,..the heat is. It is the liquid water in the oceans that are the only thing that is saving us by absorbing CO2. Water vapor is transitional and not a permanent contributor it GW and once achieving certain levels turn into rain which we need but not in the increasing form of flooding...thanks to warmer air.

Phydeaux -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 11:38:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 Not to mention if combustion reactions are really causing the rise in sea level, then doesn't that give my argument that we should abandon fossil fuels a little more backing? If fossil fuels are causing rising sea levels then you agree with me then that we should move away from them to avoid further problems? [:D] No. The first step in solving a problem is being accurately able to describe it. Then you decide how to spend your money. If you asked the natinos of the world, would they give up fossil fuels to prevent .1 mm raise in ocean levels a year, the answer overwhelmngly would be.. no.

Tkman117 -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 11:41:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 FR It's not so much as a doomsday scenario as many people think, and I feel that is why there is such a pushback on the issue on climate change. Yes we will have harsher seasonal extremes (colder winters, hotter, drier summers), yes we will see increased sea level rises, yes we will see more intense storms. But it doesn't mean the END. Humans will adapt, that much is obvious. But it will result in more difficult situations for people living decades from now. Drier summers will be mean crops will have a harder time growing, sea level increased by as much as a meter will displace a lot of people living on the coasts, and more intense storms will result in damages that will cost more than the actions that could be taken to mitigate the effects of climate change. Humans will be fine, we'll survive, but things will change and not for the better. I don't worry about climate change, because it's already beginning, with what we've put into the atmosphere there are changes that are going to happen regardless of our actions today. I worry about the ramifications of climate change and how many will have to suffer because a couple of morons refuse to listen to reason and the science. Just curious TKman. take Methane: ch4 +2O2----> co2 + 2H2O Since we are putting trillions of tonnes of C02 into the atmosphere, the means we are putting trillions of tonnes of water into the atmosphere as well. Now, since water is a greenhouse gas, can you explain a) how much you've considered whether the "rising seas" might be contributed to by this added water. b). why you're not concerned about the greenhouse gas effect of water. For the record, I know the answers to these. Just curious if you do. CO2 adds H2O ? How ? Warmer air holds more H2O but CO2 is not adding H2O to the atmosphere.,..the heat is. It is the liquid water in the oceans that are the only thing that is saving us by absorbing CO2. Water vapor is transitional and not a permanent contributor it GW and once achieving certain levels turn into rain which we need but not in the increasing form of flooding...thanks to warmer air. He's actually correct, these are combustion reactions, which release CO2 and H2O into the atmosphere.

Tkman117 -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 11:45:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 Not to mention if combustion reactions are really causing the rise in sea level, then doesn't that give my argument that we should abandon fossil fuels a little more backing? If fossil fuels are causing rising sea levels then you agree with me then that we should move away from them to avoid further problems? [:D] No. The first step in solving a problem is being accurately able to describe it. Then you decide how to spend your money. If you asked the natinos of the world, would they give up fossil fuels to prevent .1 mm raise in ocean levels a year, the answer overwhelmngly would be.. no. Lol, and when you consider the "trillions" of gallons of water coming from combustion reactions and the countless other gallons of water melting off ice sheets as we speak, I think we're talking about much more than 0.1mm of ocean rising. Not to mention the ocean is heating which creates an expansion effect in and of itself [;)]. I'm going to say that's a pretty accurate description, and spending money? Hell, there's a better chance of Hell freezing over before countries stop subsidizing the oil industry. Personally I think the west is in the need for a revolution of sorts, but that's a discussion for another time :P

kalikshama -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 11:59:05 AM)
quote: But why worrying over global warming is so predominantly a Democrat pastime seems open to speculation. Arguing "stupid Republicans" doesn't explain why worry over global warming isn't eating up many Independents either. Anyone have any views on that? According to the documentary "Jesus Camp," Evangelicals don't worry about climate change because the imminent Rapture will make that moot. Romney received 79% of the Evangelicals vote.

Phydeaux -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 12:00:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 Not to mention if combustion reactions are really causing the rise in sea level, then doesn't that give my argument that we should abandon fossil fuels a little more backing? If fossil fuels are causing rising sea levels then you agree with me then that we should move away from them to avoid further problems? [:D] No. The first step in solving a problem is being accurately able to describe it. Then you decide how to spend your money. If you asked the natinos of the world, would they give up fossil fuels to prevent .1 mm raise in ocean levels a year, the answer overwhelmngly would be.. no. Lol, and when you consider the "trillions" of gallons of water coming from combustion reactions and the countless other gallons of water melting off ice sheets as we speak, I think we're talking about much more than 0.1mm of ocean rising. Not to mention the ocean is heating which creates an expansion effect in and of itself [;)]. I'm going to say that's a pretty accurate description, and spending money? Hell, there's a better chance of Hell freezing over before countries stop subsidizing the oil industry. Personally I think the west is in the need for a revolution of sorts, but that's a discussion for another time :P So I take it you are unwilling or unable to perform the calculations. Its rudimentary science you know.

Tkman117 -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 12:05:20 PM)
Hey man, I got no solid numbers, just abstract statements. If they're so rudimentary, why don't you do them? You do claim to have the superior intellect. 4 degrees and all that BS [:D]

Phydeaux -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 12:24:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 Hey man, I got no solid numbers, just abstract statements. If they're so rudimentary, why don't you do them? You do claim to have the superior intellect. 4 degrees and all that BS [:D] Its called critical thinking - rather than blind acceptance. Very sad that you can't do such a thing relatively simply. You shouldn't have to rely on ideas and numbers being handed to you. So, lets do some rough calculations, using your numbers. Lets say that its one trillion tonnes, and that this because of stoichiometry yields 2 trillion tonnes of water. (not gallons). Since this is back of envelope, we wll presume the worst case scenario that all water runs off the land and to the sea, with no appreciable hold up. 510 million square kilometers is roughly the area of the worlds oceans. 2 trillion tonnes is roughly 4 quadrillion pounds. 4e12/5.10e8 ~.8e4 or 8000 lbs per square kilometer. Lets standardize on metric. 3636 kg per square kilometer. 1km =1000 m = 100,000 cm. = 1e5 cm. So 1 km2 = 1e10 cm^2. 3636 kg = 3636000 grams, or 3.6e6. 3.6e6/1e10 = 3.6e-4g/cm^2 Ie., .0004 gram/cm^2 Since the density of water is roughly 1g/cc, .0004 gcm2 * 1 cm^3/g... roughly .0004 cm. Or .004 mm per year. You should really learn how to do these kinds of calculations before making the allegation that people that hold points of view different than you are mathematically or numerically illiterate.

Tkman117 -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 12:29:50 PM)
So critical thinking that humans can affect climate by their activities? Or the critical thinking that assumes that because we humans are so tiny that we can't change something as great and mighty as our planet earth? Honestly man, I've read the numbers, and they don't match up with the ones from Bullshit Mountain [8\|] Because the critical thinking is this: Lots of water from melting ice caps and other ice sources + Water from combustion reactions = More water in the climate system More water in the climate system = increased warming due to increased water vapour + a rise in sea level attributed to both extra water and increased temperatures. I don't think I can get any simpler than that, but if you try hard, you might understand it [:D]

vincentML -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 12:42:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: But why worrying over global warming is so predominantly a Democrat pastime seems open to speculation. Arguing "stupid Republicans" doesn't explain why worry over global warming isn't eating up many Independents either. Anyone have any views on that? According to the documentary "Jesus Camp," Evangelicals don't worry about climate change because the imminent Rapture will make that moot. Romney received 79% of the Evangelicals vote. Oh yeah. I felt a little of it last night. Know what I mean? Course ya do. [;)]

Phydeaux -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 12:48:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 So critical thinking that humans can affect climate by their activities? Or the critical thinking that assumes that because we humans are so tiny that we can't change something as great and mighty as our planet earth? Honestly man, I've read the numbers, and they don't match up with the ones from Bullshit Mountain [8\|] Because the critical thinking is this: Lots of water from melting ice caps and other ice sources + Water from combustion reactions = More water in the climate system More water in the climate system = increased warming due to increased water vapour + a rise in sea level attributed to both extra water and increased temperatures. Do you not realize the irony of your statement? Thats not critical thinking at all quote: I don't think I can get any simpler than that, but if you try hard, you might understand it [:D] Ah so every result leads to the litany of global warming. I was trying to have a discussion with you to prove that a). You need the ability to reason, and use math in this kind of argument. b). As I showed, the water from combustion is actually immaterial to the argument, at least as far as raising sea levels. But you need the ability to make those determinations - and you don't have them.

vincentML -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 12:49:02 PM)
quote: a dislike of the human race (The Club of Rome’s work Mankind at the Turning-Point said: “The world has cancer and the cancer is man.”). They must be Christians. [:D]

Moonhead -> RE: Who Worries about Global Warming? (4/7/2014 12:55:33 PM)
Given that the Club Of Rome's main issue has always been overpopulation rather than climate change (they were worried about the ecological effects of the population explosion, but that wasn't ever the main thrust of their agenda, as they saw at as an insoluble problem without population control), I very much doubt that they're Christians: the sort of Christian who thinks that Gawd hates birth control is as big a part of the COR's problem as the Chinese (who've at least been trying to achieve zero population growth for the last thirty or forty years).

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