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RE: Cheating - 11/23/2004 3:47:52 PM   
smile2cu


Posts: 265
Joined: 7/21/2004
From: Dayton, OH
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I was careful to re-read each and every post, but I saw no-one attacking or judging an individual, I see them judging an activity, or as I refer to it - a rationalization.
And calling this a rationalization is not judgemental, I guess.

And from your "Can of worms post"
quote:

And all will have issues why they can't change:
- Spouse too sick to leave but will be committed as soon as he/she die.
Which, naturally I found rather offensive, given the tone of the post.

Ironically, I've really enjoyed, and agreed with, almost all of your other posts. Your signature line almost perfectly reflects my thoughts.
quote:

Somebody should tell us, right at the start of our lives, that we are dying. Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of every day. Do it! I say. Whatever you want to do, do it now! There are only so many tomorrows.


May I respectfully suggest that many of you might consider adding the virtues of Tolerance and Understanding to the other fine moral qualities you have. Save a spot for them in the large area now occupied by Judgement, which is better reserved for the One.

_____________________________

Friendly, kind, cheerful, and oral.

~smile~

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Cheating - 11/23/2004 4:06:16 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		smile2cu,

I must tell you that I have been thinking and considering you and your situation a lot today. I respect you and enjoy reading your comments and insight on these forums. So when you described your situation and it was apparent that under the definition of this thread you fell into the 'cheaters' side of the argument; I tried to place myself in your situation and it was a very difficult place to be.

How can a man, with obvious integrity and respect for the lifestyle, such as you, be labeled dishonest or a cheat? Your wife is fully aware, you've discussed your needs with her, but your sexual activity is still an 'unspoken' between you. Her position regarding changing your marital status doesn't help. I really don't need or want to know the reason for this on her part, but even if it was just access to medical coverage, I guess that's reason enough.

When I discussed this with beth, we both said your situation describes the worst case scenario of the "death do us part" clause in the marriage vows. We compared it to the Christopher Reeves situation, and wondered if Mrs Reeves had the same mind cramping arguments with herself concerning her sexuality. And ultimately we questioned each other as to what we would do. Again, even that thought is unfair to you, because our thoughts are no-where near your reality. It's even more strange in our case. We became a couple as a lifestyle couple. We've played in the company of others, we've even touched and played with others. But I came to the conclusion that I'd divorce and/or release, if in your position. I'd put my best effort to put beth in the best facility, with the best care, but if my sexual and lifestyle desire could not include her, I could not continue without her and then come home to sleep next to her. I couldn't rationalize how to look in her eyes in that situation. But most of all I hope that I never have the opportunity to test that resolve.

As for beth. I'll let her speak for herself.

My only other comment I feel a need to make, is concerning your statement regarding the longevity of your marriage, and that 50% of other marriages ending in divorce. You speak within your post that given the choice you would be divorced giving her a "quite generous" settlement. By your own words I don't think you consider this a noteworthy accomplishment. 50% of the marriages, including one each for beth and me, result in divorce because they should end in divorce.

I hope you smile again.

(in reply to smile2cu)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Cheating - 11/23/2004 4:41:16 PM   
MemphisDsCouple


Posts: 146
Joined: 11/1/2004
From: Memphis, TN, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Last thing: I don't agree that we're "beginning" to condone cheating. People have always cheated. They cheated before civilization; they cheated in Greece and Rome; they cheated during the good old days of the 50's. I get very suspicious when people making moralistic arguments try to sell the idea that our values are decaying. The values of the past were no better than those of the present--in fact, in many ways, they were worse.


I do think the original writer was right on target. I see many examples of large numbers of people who claim to participate in d/s "lifestyles" condoning cheating. In point of fact, and as a specific example, I joined an email discussion list for a local group not long ago that claimed in its self description to "cater to newbies". Following that, there was an announcement that most "newbies" are best served by studying d/s online because online reading is both "private" and "discreet". The list moderator went on to expound about how many husbands and wives "do not understand". And so on.

This group was beyond "condoning" cheating. It had moved into the realm of actively rationalizing, promoting and facilitating cheating. I pose the question: In what other area of our lives will we shrug off dishonesty? In business? No. In religion? No. In education? No. In medicine? No. In law? No. From our friends? No. From our family? No. How then can we shrug off cheating in this forum? The only answer is, that in good conscience we can not.

Moreover, if we have any sense of being a "good samaritan", of trying to help other people, then we owe, both to them and to ourselves, the guidance and suggestion to avoid cheating. No good can come of it. People will be hurt. Lives will be torn. Things will go from bad to worse. The best thing we can do for these people as individuals, for ourselves so we can see ourselves as good, responsible and helpful people and for the d/s "community" is to advocate that the person who is considering cheating go home and sort out their primary relationship. Only after they do that will they be in a position to create something meaningful and fulfilling in another relationship.

B. (the male half of MemphisDsCouple)

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Cheating - 11/23/2004 4:58:11 PM   
smile2cu


Posts: 265
Joined: 7/21/2004
From: Dayton, OH
Status: offline 		Merc n beth,
Thanks for your good wishes. Just a few comments: My wife, thankfully, does not need or what institutionalization.

I truly hope you never have to test your resolve either, but sometimes things aren't quite as simple as they've been portrayed on this thread.

My point on marriages was not to that the divorces shouldn't take place, but that the marriages should not be entered into as casually as it seems many are today.

Incidently, beth, my choice is to stay married. Despite obvious difficulties, we love one another. I've mentioned that in previous posts, and gotten quite the predictable responses: "How can you say...". Well, I mention it because it's true, and remains true despite what others may say.

I'm satisfied with my moral choices. It took me, quite frankly, rather longer than it should have to come to this decision. But having so decided, I'm happy with it. No, I don't feel like a hypocrite. No, I'm not immensly burdened with guilt. I'm pretty happy with myself and my choices. Most of the time I smile, because I decided it was my choice to be happy or not.

_____________________________

Friendly, kind, cheerful, and oral.

~smile~

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Cheating - 11/23/2004 5:10:04 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

And all will have issues why they can't change:
- Spouse too sick to leave but will be committed as soon as he/she die.

Which, naturally I found rather offensive, given the tone of the post.


I agree and apologize.

Merc

(in reply to smile2cu)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Cheating - 11/23/2004 5:23:05 PM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Think I'll skip my usual smile today.


ok and if your gonna
skip your smile then
I will skip being nice
to others.....cause your
smile is what would make
Me just a lil bit better of
a person to others but
ohh well the BITCH is back.
smile2cU
what happened to choice 3 , 4 and 5?
Were never promiced any rose gardens!

let Me tell ya a lil story
bout a person whom
was married for over
27 an 16 years faithfully
to two poly Dominants.
Now that person
lost the loves of their
life both within one year
of another. And it took that
person 7 years to even
speak to another Dominant
in a *lets fuck* manner,
because the guilt of being
the one left to live life, ate
away at that persons soul
and the thought of cheating
and yes even tho they were
gone it was still thought of
as cheating to think thoughts
of sumone else when one gives
the words till death in vow
to that person.
And if there was one thing
that person learned about
life is that, needs will in
the end DICKtate the actions.
smile there are many other
ways one can gain sexual
satisfaction with OUT having
another sexual partner. you
must choose if you are going
to accept the limits of the one
you love and accept that in life
things change and things happen
in life that makes living a hardship
and if you cannot stick out the hard
times and remember the easy times
what does this say about you?
Mind you I am not judging but only
questioning if you have mulled this
over in your mind and what has your
soul come to in its conclusion? I know
how that person felt in their heart
and leaving that which is a part of you
that which professed love and life and
forever to you cannot be payed off
monitarily because this bind, this
lifes choice of togetherness surpasses
such material things smile. Surpasses
things such as physical sexual pleasure.
Im sure that you are a healthy man an
you have needs but I must feel for
the one whom has not only loss the
ability to be that which is natural for
all of Us but is now faced with a double
whammie in that not only has she lost
the ability to be complete in her body
but now must face fact not being complete
in her being and soul and mind and heart
with the one she had given all to and he
back in return.
Is the act of physical sex really worth
giving up all of that? Ive never seen
the equal in value but then again Im
concidered not of the norm and a little
weird.

(in reply to smile2cu)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Cheating - 11/23/2004 7:52:34 PM   
Kinkypupper


Posts: 713
Joined: 9/26/2004
From: Portland oregon
Status: offline 		YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSss



x 50000000

well said... They have made a commitment.. they need to keep that commitment or end the relationship.. If they are cheating behind their married spouse then HOW can they possably commit to a Dom. ( or if they are a Dom how can they submit to someone so untrustworthy)

Look at a wedding band and the historical "rights of marrage".. Sounds like a Dom/sub relationship to me....

_____________________________

Phil Moulton
A Sensual Touch
Locopony Racing
Portland Oregon

(in reply to INSIDEYOURMIND)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Cheating - 11/23/2004 9:41:58 PM   
smile2cu


Posts: 265
Joined: 7/21/2004
From: Dayton, OH
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kinkypupper
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSss
x 50000000
well said... They have made a commitment.. they need to keep that commitment or end the relationship..

Actually, in some cases,NO!. Please see my previous posts in this thread.
I truly don't understand why so many of you here feel ready to impose a solution on others. Sad to see the lack of tolerance.

(in reply to Kinkypupper)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Cheating - 11/23/2004 9:52:49 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:

I truly don't understand why so many of you here feel ready to impose a solution on others. Sad to see the lack of tolerance.


I support you in your decision smile.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to smile2cu)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Cheating - 11/23/2004 10:04:19 PM   
smile2cu


Posts: 265
Joined: 7/21/2004
From: Dayton, OH
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD
ok and if your gonna
skip your smile then
I will skip being nice
to others.....cause your
smile is what would make
Me just a lil bit better of
a person to others but
ohh well the BITCH is back.
smile2cU
...
smile there are many other
ways one can gain sexual
satisfaction with OUT having
another sexual partner. you
must choose if you are going
to accept the limits of the one
you love and accept that in life
things change and things happen
in life that makes living a hardship
and if you cannot stick out the hard
times and remember the easy times
what does this say about you?

OK, OK, I'll smile. Can't have the BITCH back! (You mean she left?)

I tried making love to my hand for several years. That's actually what took so long in making a decision. I think what that says about me is that the decision was not taken lightly, and that I'm now pretty happy with my choices, including the belief that the choice is right and moral.

I guess the several years with my hand probably also says that it was not so terribly bad as a lover, except for cuddling afterward.

Thanks.


_____________________________

Friendly, kind, cheerful, and oral.

~smile~

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Cheating - 11/23/2004 10:15:25 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:

I support you in your decision smile.


Let me add that if the same thing ever happens to me i would encourage Hubby to do what you are doing.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to proudsub)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Cheating - 11/23/2004 10:27:19 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline 		I was actually thinking about this a lot today too. I think that my objections arise when a partner has no idea that they're being cheated on.

The way I understand it, in your situation there's an unspoken knowledge, and very very very extenuating circumstances.

I won't withdraw that I believe partners should be aware, but I think I have to tone down my level-of-awareness meter, because I was labeling negativly something I don't think is bad.

Thank you very much for being willing to duke it out on here. I think my opinion has been refined for the better, and I very much appreciate that.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to smile2cu)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Cheating - 11/23/2004 10:54:46 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		Edited to say, I've reread your replies, and you have discussed it with her; good for you, and glad all parties are aware.
If your wife is sick and needs you, but cannot have sex with you, does that mean that she shouldn't know that you are involved outside of the marriage?
Being celibate (and you'd still have your 2 hands, lol) wouldn't kill you.
Anyway, it's true, eveyone does what works for them, and it's none of our biz, but I'm still with Insideyourmind... Cheatin' is problematic because relationships involve emotions, not just acts... And involving oneself emotionally with someone who isn't available is a pain in the ass (for some of us).
Ms M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 11/23/2004 11:07:15 PM >

(in reply to smile2cu)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Cheating - 11/23/2004 11:12:36 PM   
EStrict


Posts: 729
Joined: 1/11/2004
Status: offline 		Smile, I am not picking on you, honest. But I admit I don't understand your logic. If your wife has always believed you to be cheating, isn't it better to allow her the peace of mind of knowing she is correct and that knowing that with other's it is *just sex* than to torture her with the insecurity of if you will find a sex partner that you are going to find that you leave her for?

I know I have mentioned before that my best friend is submissive who is married to a vanilla. I have always supported her decision to do what she needs to do, but would never condone her lying to her husband. Omission is a form of lying. She finally spoke to him, and told him what she needed, but they agreed that between financial obligations (more stringant in some countries than others) and their children, they would stay together. He isn't happy with her choice,, but he accepts it because he would rather be married to her than not.... and she sleep much better knowing she was HONEST and is doing nothing underhanded or decietful to someone she made a commitment to....

_____________________________

Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Cheating - 11/24/2004 4:07:14 AM   
MemphisDsCouple


Posts: 146
Joined: 11/1/2004
From: Memphis, TN, USA
Status: offline
quote:

I truly don't understand why so many of you here feel ready to impose a solution on others. Sad to see the lack of tolerance.


Hi smile2cu.

Actually....... from reading this thread, it seems to me that most of the writers are trying to avoid imposing a solution on anyone. Most seem to be addressing the concept of cheating (and the flip side of that coin - honesty) in a broad, philosophical context. I know I tried to do that when I wrote.

Because you wrote that you have discussed the issue with your invalid wife, the posts that do address the circumstances of your own individual situation seem to all (or at the very least most of them) both absolve you from any "cheating" guilt in the eyes of those individual writers and in some cases they even commend you for your honesty within your primary relationship. I have not mentioned your specific situation in my posts on this topic, but if I did I would commend you for your forthrightness to your wife and cite your honesty as an example of what I believe to be the truth and fact. Namely, that however difficult it may be, however reluctant we may be, it is still always possible to deal honestly with our commitments.

B. (the male half if MemphisDsCouple)

(in reply to smile2cu)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Cheating - 11/24/2004 5:48:05 AM   
INSIDEYOURMIND


Posts: 483
Status: offline 		I started this thread with the intention of discussing the action of cheating, not to call someone out, and acuse them and belittle them.
I stated that we needed to be held accountable for our actions, not accountable to us, or a higher power, but to ourselves, and the people that are involved.
I agree with Merc, it is easier to accept an excuse to rationalize our actions, and humans typically take the path of least resistance, but I believe in being true to the promises and vows we make.
I don't like to bring this up, but some of you already know, I am awaiting a heart transplant, I have been in this situation for over 15 months now, and I am not sure how long I will have to wait, or if I will even get one. I met my sub a little over 5 months ago, because of my health, and the meds I take (over 37 pills a day!) we cannot have "normal" sex, but we have wonderful, passion filled times.
I am confident that if we could have no sexual contact at all, she would not stray, or cheat. When you are in that type of situation, it is additional comfort.
Merc,
The Christopher Reeves comment was especially thought provoking!

I do not sit and judge anyone, or anything, you have to answer to yourselves.

"CNN found that Hillary Clinton is the most admired woman in America. Women admire her because she's strong and successful. Men admire her because she allows her husband to cheat and get away with it."
Jay Leno

< Message edited by INSIDEYOURMIND -- 11/24/2004 5:54:39 AM >

(in reply to MemphisDsCouple)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Cheating - 11/24/2004 6:30:05 AM   
mtsilence


Posts: 33
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline 		My original posted reply to this thread was perhaps not the one people were looking for sine I fell into the side of taking responsibility for one's actions and finding their own standard of honor. It was not a judgment call or even an outline as to how one should or should not live their life or be involved in this lifestyle. I have come back and reread the dozens of newest entries into this thread and I have to say there have been many thought provoking statements and insights offered and made. There are no solutions for the situation, it is a personal decision that has to be faced, and it will depend on the individuals involved what that choice is in the end. Having had friends put in to the extreme health issue problem, I have watched as the healthy party chose not to cheat but instead changed the dynamic of their relationship and roles were changed, as need demanded. I have also seen dear friends when faced with health issues grab their bags and run for the door wanting nothing to do with the decline of their former partner. They were unable to deal with the illness and so felt that leaving was their best solution. I have had friends who have taken the road of honest discourse with their partners come up with a workable and livable solution, where in the one went forth and continued to play without exchanging body fluids. I have also known people who chose the road of cheating and sneaking around behind their loved one's back, one went so far as to have the nerve to use my mailing address to get their hot love letters! I can tell you I called a stop to that as soon as I got the first letter in my mailbox! I will still have to stand on my original view which is this situation calls forth the individual’s ability to determine their course of act and display for themselves their own ideals of honesty and honor. It is not a personal judgment against anyone, it is however one of the hall marks of nobility and integrity, that is manifested in behavior

(in reply to INSIDEYOURMIND)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Cheating - 11/24/2004 7:07:59 AM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		Access Denied

< Message edited by RiotGirl -- 3/15/2005 11:29:39 PM >

(in reply to mtsilence)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Cheating - 11/24/2004 8:37:28 AM   
smile2cu


Posts: 265
Joined: 7/21/2004
From: Dayton, OH
Status: offline 		Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.
perverseangelic, I very much appreciate your post.



_____________________________

Friendly, kind, cheerful, and oral.

~smile~

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Cheating - 11/24/2004 9:12:03 AM   
smile2cu


Posts: 265
Joined: 7/21/2004
From: Dayton, OH
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig
Edited to say, I've reread your replies, and you have discussed it with her; good for you, and glad all parties are aware.
If your wife is sick and needs you, but cannot have sex with you, does that mean that she shouldn't know that you are involved outside of the marriage?
Being celibate (and you'd still have your 2 hands, lol) wouldn't kill you.
Anyway, it's true, eveyone does what works for them, and it's none of our biz, but I'm still with Insideyourmind... Cheatin' is problematic because relationships involve emotions, not just acts... And involving oneself emotionally with someone who isn't available is a pain in the ass (for some of us).
Ms M
Thanks, Ms M, We talked about it and she made it quite clear that she didn't or wouldn't want to know. Naturally, such a discussion is emotional, but is necessarily somewhat obscure, otherwise the discussion itself is hurtful.

Celibacy, in my humble opinion, is vastly overrated. Tried it for several years, so I think I can speak from experience. This honestly is not how I wish to spend my life.

I think your point about emotional involvement is valid. You're looking at it from from the point of view of someone becoming involved emotionally with someone like me, who's not available. I can only tell you that I've been very careful to make clear that I'm not available, and to avoid anyone looking for a long term relationship.

The other point of view, which is a danger, is my becoming emotionally involved with someone. To me this is the larger danger. I do tend to be a warm person, and traditionally sex and love have always gone together in my mind. I'm being honest with my partners. And I'm trying to keep this in mind.

_____________________________

Friendly, kind, cheerful, and oral.

~smile~

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)
Profile   Post #: 60
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