RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/18/2014 5:48:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This will explain what I'm trying to tell some of you.
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/faculty_sites/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html


Dom (koff) Ken...the Catholic church prefers those that are not adults, susceptible.

They (then priests) need to get married.

They need pussy.

Kinda covers it all, whether you're a Catholic or not.

You didn't pay attention. Try again.




DomKen -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/18/2014 5:51:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

My apologies for the lost posts.


Vile nonsense copied from such charming sources as worldnetdaily deleted. Maybe you shouldn't believe every hateful thing written about gay people by the people who want to kill them.




tweakabelle -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/18/2014 10:16:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


I dispute your characterization that there are tens of thousands of cases.

According to the Church's own figures:
"About 4 percent of U.S. priests ministering from 1950 to 2002 were accused of sex abuse with a minor, according to the first comprehensive national study of the issue.The study said that 4,392 clergymen—almost all priests—were accused of abusing 10,667 people, with 75 percent of the incidents taking place between 1960 and 1984."
https://www.americancatholic.org/news/clergysexabuse/johnjaycns.asp

So there more than ten thousand cases of abuse in the USA alone prior to 2002. The international figure is harder to assess accurately but just one example will give an accurate indication of extent of clerical sexual abuse of minors. In a partial audit of abuse in Ireland, "1,933 people raised allegations of abuse against 796 religious"^. The norm in these cases is for multiple incidents of abuse and multiple abusees to each perpetrator. It is also the norm that the number of reported cases is far lower than the number of actual cases.

If we add to the US figure the numbers of cases internationally and the cases in the USA since 2002, it is accurate to express that total in "tens of thousands".

Denying the facts, blame shifting, abusive responses, claims of prejudice, minimising and whitewashing the problems are all classic indicators of denial. Your refusal to face up to the facts ( not "characterisations" as you claim but descriptions of actual events ie. facts) doesn't make the facts disappear. Nor does my refusal to soften the language I am using to describe these facts indicate prejudice on my part.

The tens of thousands of cases of child rape coupled with the Church's attempts to protect those responsible from prosecution all add up to a criminal conspiracy to pervert the course of justice* and actual perversions of the course of justice carried out by the Catholic Church's clergy and hierarchy on an international scale. This is on top of the tens of thousands of actual cases of child rape carried out by the clergy.

As this conclusion is arrived at by adding the Church's own admitted behaviour to its own numbers of incidents of abuse, this conclusion seems unavoidable and indisputable. It is a mystery to me how any one could find this sordid state of affairs in an allegedly moral institution defensible.


^ http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/have-we-become-numb-to-the-figures-on-clerical-child-abuse-1227144-Dec2013/
* "perverting the course of justice" is the appropriate legal charge for this behaviour in Australia, and I believe the UK also. I am unaware if this term is used in the USA, or what the equivalent term might be.




Phydeaux -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/19/2014 3:47:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


I dispute your characterization that there are tens of thousands of cases.

According to the Church's own figures:
"About 4 percent of U.S. priests ministering from 1950 to 2002 were accused of sex abuse with a minor, according to the first comprehensive national study of the issue.The study said that 4,392 clergymen—almost all priests—were accused of abusing 10,667 people, with 75 percent of the incidents taking place between 1960 and 1984."
https://www.americancatholic.org/news/clergysexabuse/johnjaycns.asp

So there more than ten thousand cases of abuse in the USA alone prior to 2002. The international figure is harder to assess accurately but just one example will give an accurate indication of extent of clerical sexual abuse of minors. In a partial audit of abuse in Ireland, "1,933 people raised allegations of abuse against 796 religious"^. The norm in these cases is for multiple incidents of abuse and multiple abusees to each perpetrator. It is also the norm that the number of reported cases is far lower than the number of actual cases.

If we add to the US figure the numbers of cases internationally and the cases in the USA since 2002, it is accurate to express that total in "tens of thousands".


No, actually allegations of sexual abuse are not actually *cases* of sexual abuse. Just like the democratic icon Al Sharpton (you know, the (incompetent, wannabee) drug dealer) making allegations of rape, only to be proven that gee - it never happened.

Furthermore to make the allegations that there are tens of thousands of cases - the inference is that it is more than 2 tens of thousands. It makes it sound like its fifty or sixty thousands. 10000 is not tens of thousands.

So, you are admitting you are wrong.



And I have yet to hear a condemnation for you for the millions of cases of muslim pedophilia. Not one shred of outrage? Why is that tweak?




Phydeaux -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/19/2014 3:57:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

My apologies for the lost posts.



Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/18/2014 3:55:30 PM

Phydeux

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydux
I gave as an example of that the fact that there are literally millions of cases of pedophilia in the Muslim world. In fact more than a million cases in Afghanistan alone. Ie 100 times the scandal in the Catholic chirch... and this leads to not a shred of outrage.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
So I'll say it again: I am a appalled by errors the Catholic Church has made. And I am just as appalled at the blatant bigoted and repulsive posts by you, gotsteel. And others.


Errors promoting a priest for raping a baby is more than an error.

And you've spoken about priests and bishops but what about the previous pedo-pope? He should be brought to justice right?



Sorry champ

I'm far more interested in talking about

According to the study, "Archives of Sexual Behavior," some 86 percent of pedophiles described themselves as homosexual or bisexual. Also, the study found, the number of teenage male prostitutes who identify as homosexuals has risen from 10 percent to 60 percent in the past 15 years.


* In 1995 the homosexual magazine "Guide" said, "We can be proud that the gay movement has been home to the few voices who have had the courage to say out loud that children are naturally sexual" and "deserve the right to sexual expression with whoever they choose. " The article went on to say: "Instead of fearing being labeled pedophiles, we must proudly proclaim that sex is good, including children's sexuality we must do it for the children's sake."

Child molestation and pedophilia occur far more commonly among homosexuals than among heterosexuals on a per capita basis, according to a new study.


In her thesis also written for the Regent University Law Review Reisman cited psychologist Eugene Abel, whose research found that homosexuals "sexually molest young boys with an incidence that is occurring from five times greater than the molestation of girls. "

Abel also found that non-incarcerated "child molesters admitted from 23.4 to 281.7 acts per offender whose targets were males."

"The rate of homosexual versus heterosexual child sexual abuse is staggering," said Reisman, who was the principal investigator for an $800,000 Justice Department grant studying child pornography and violence. "Abel,s data of 150.2 boys abused per male homosexual offender finds no equal (yet) in heterosexual violations of 19.8 girls."


Gay press promotes sex with children

Baldwin says his research not only "confirms that homosexuals molest children at a rate vastly higher than heterosexuals," but it found that "the mainstream homosexual culture" even "commonly promotes sex with children."

"The editorial board of the leading pedophile academic journal, Paidika, is dominated by prominent homosexual scholars such as San Francisco State University professor John DeCecco, who happens to edit the Journal of Homosexuality," Baldwin wrote.

During his research, he also found:

* The Journal of Homosexuality recently published a special double-issue entitled, "Male Intergenerational Intimacy," containing many articles portraying sex between men and minor boys as loving relationships. One article said parents should look upon the pedophile who loves their son "not as a rival or competitor, not as a theft of their property, but as a partner in the boy's upbringing, someone to be welcomed into their home."



* In a study of advertisements in the influential homosexual newspaper, The Advocate, Reisman found ads for a "Penetrable Boy Doll available in three provocative positions. She also found that the number of erotic boy images in each issue of The Advocate averaged 14

"The editorial board of the leading pedophile academic journal, Paidika, is dominated by prominent homosexual scholars such as San Francisco State University professor John DeCecco, who happens to edit the Journal of Homosexuality," Baldwin wrote.


"The rate of homosexual versus heterosexual child sexual abuse is staggering," said Reisman, who was the principal investigator for an $800,000 Justice Department grant studying child pornography and violence. "Abel,s data of 150.2 boys abused per male homosexual offender finds no equal (yet) in heterosexual violations of 19.8 girl

So a number of points.
1. It certainly is standard parlance to identify pedophiles as homosexual or heterosexual.

2. Nambla absolutely is a homosexual pedophilia group.

3. The homosexual movement has Just as significsnt.. If not more so problem with pedophilia as the cath church.

In fact the incidence of pedophilia among homosexuals is greater than the incidence of pedophilia in Catholic priests.

I don't condemn homosexuals because of it. But I do condemn your hypocritical standard in attacking the Catholic church.




No response eh Getsteel?

Don' suppose you have any answer to the Cantor study that says that males the are pedofiliac with female children are to high degrees cases of incest.

Or where is says that the rate of pedophilia among homosexual men is in the range of 5 times more common than in heterosexual men.

So. If you really want to be offended about pedophilia - a response I completely agree with - then perhaps you should be targeting your offense more appropriately at muslims and homosexuals.

But I doubt you have the guts.




DomKen -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/19/2014 6:33:50 PM)

Why are you posting lies from WND? Why do you believe such hateful crap in the first place?




dcnovice -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/19/2014 7:09:19 PM)

quote:

Don' suppose you have any answer to the Cantor study that says that males the are pedofiliac with female children are to high degrees cases of incest.

Or where is says that the rate of pedophilia among homosexual men is in the range of 5 times more common than in heterosexual men.


Do you mean scientist James Cantor at the University of Toronto?

Who said:

James Cantor, the Head of the Law and Mental Health Research Section of the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto, Canada, also rejected suggestions of a link between homosexuality and pedophilia.

"It's quite solidly shown in the scientific literature that there is absolutely no association between being a gay man and being a pedophile," Cantor, also Editor-in-Chief of "Sexual Abuse: A Journal of Research and Treatment," told CNN.


http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/04/14/vatican.homosexuality.pedophilia/index.html?_s=PM:WORLD




dcnovice -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/19/2014 7:23:39 PM)

quote:

Why do you believe such hateful crap in the first place?

One possibility perhaps?

Homophobia is more pronounced in individuals with an unacknowledged attraction to the same sex and who grew up with authoritarian parents who forbade such desires, a series of psychology studies demonstrates. The study is the first to document the role that both parenting and sexual orientation play in the formation of intense fear of homosexuals.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120406234458.htm?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=is-some-homophobia-self-phobia




thishereboi -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/19/2014 8:39:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Why do you believe such hateful crap in the first place?

One possibility perhaps?

Homophobia is more pronounced in individuals with an unacknowledged attraction to the same sex and who grew up with authoritarian parents who forbade such desires, a series of psychology studies demonstrates. The study is the first to document the role that both parenting and sexual orientation play in the formation of intense fear of homosexuals.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120406234458.htm?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=is-some-homophobia-self-phobia


Could be or it could be as simple as plain ol' ignorance.




dcnovice -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/19/2014 8:48:58 PM)

quote:

Could be or it could be as simple as plain ol' ignorance.

Also a distinct possibility! [;)]




tweakabelle -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/20/2014 12:13:23 AM)

Denial is a strong candidate. There is ample evidence of denial exhibited by those who are defending the Catholic Church's role in the clericial sexual abuse crisis throughout this thread. See Phydeaux's posts #52 and 64 for instance.

Theses posts are so sad and pathetic they barely qualify as sophistry and pretty poor sophistry at that. There is still no defence to the charge that the Church engaged in a criminal conspiracy to hide the crimes and criminals who carried out the child rapes, to protect them from legal prosecution.

A far more honest and moral course would be to admit the extent and seriousness of the crisis, and to ask forgiveness after putting the interests of those abused first. But it seems that apologists for the Church are far more interested in disputing the extent and seriousness of the crisis, in blame shifting, in thoroughly reprehensible attempts to malign gays and others and in abusing those who dare to expose the facts and magnitude of the Church's appalling behaviour.

This indicates that there is no remorse, that there is no change of heart, and perhaps saddest of all, that no lessons have been learnt from the entire sordid story.




Raz88 -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/20/2014 1:52:05 AM)

Why the heck do we need churches and priests ? Are we realy that stupid and dont know the difference between good and bad ?
Some priests break the law everyday and they get away with that because of this "church mafia"
When you break the law you need to support the consequences.
We dont care if you black, white, police man, lawyer ... Everything you do have a consequence. Good or bad.
Because they are priests we should forgive them ?
Sometimes i feel like i'm in a bad movie. The bad guys win all the time.




thishereboi -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/20/2014 7:23:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Denial is a strong candidate. There is ample evidence of denial exhibited by those who are defending the Catholic Church's role in the clericial sexual abuse crisis throughout this thread. See Phydeaux's posts #52 and 64 for instance.

Theses posts are so sad and pathetic they barely qualify as sophistry and pretty poor sophistry at that. There is still no defence to the charge that the Church engaged in a criminal conspiracy to hide the crimes and criminals who carried out the child rapes, to protect them from legal prosecution.

A far more honest and moral course would be to admit the extent and seriousness of the crisis, and to ask forgiveness after putting the interests of those abused first. But it seems that apologists for the Church are far more interested in disputing the extent and seriousness of the crisis, in blame shifting, in thoroughly reprehensible attempts to malign gays and others and in abusing those who dare to expose the facts and magnitude of the Church's appalling behaviour.

This indicates that there is no remorse, that there is no change of heart, and perhaps saddest of all, that no lessons have been learnt from the entire sordid story.



I didn't notice anyone defending what the church has done. And before you start putting words in my mouth also, that doesn't mean I agree with anything he has said, I just think your interpretation is flat out wrong. I don't feel lying about a subject and claiming that people are doing things they aren't is particularity helpful. No matter how bad it makes them look.




Moderator3 -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/20/2014 7:57:10 AM)

FR

In the future, please use less of a copyrighted article. You may link to the material.

Thank you




GotSteel -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/20/2014 2:48:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
No response eh Getsteel?

Asked and answered.

I've explained that your argument's nonsense, you're surrounded by people who have explained it to you, for Dog's sake the author of your study even explains that your arguments nonsense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
So. If you really want to be offended about pedophilia - a response I completely agree with - then perhaps you should be targeting your offense more appropriately at muslims and homosexuals.

To repeat what I said in a post that got lost I generally don't waste my time telling muslims about problems with the catholic church for the same reason I don't waste my time telling you about problems with Islam.




GotSteel -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/20/2014 3:03:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
I didn't notice anyone defending what the church has done.


I think she's referring to arguments like this, claiming the fallacy of relative privation.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
So. If you really want to be offended about pedophilia - a response I completely agree with - then perhaps you should be targeting your offense more appropriately at muslims and homosexuals.


To characterize arguments that we should ignore the Catholic Churches massive efforts to aid pedophiles because look over there as defending what the church has done is understandable. I certainly wouldn't call it lying.




njlauren -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/20/2014 4:17:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I found the story at several other news sites, including the Washington Post, but in every case the link came up page not found. I don't know whether it just isn't at the original link anymore, or whether it got pulled. But the previous pope was defrocking priests almost every other day, and the 2010 guidelines require that "civil law concerning reporting of crimes to the appropriate authorities should always be followed." So it seems very peculiar.

I originally read the washington post coverage, didn't know it was particularly widely covered, but looking for it TIME covered it as well: http://time.com/41997/italy-bishops-say-they-dont-have-to-report-abuse/

The link I posted claims these new Italy guidelines are the same as the 2010 guidelines:

quote:


Only in 2010 did the Vatican instruct bishops to report abuse to police — but only where required by law.

Italian guidelines cite a 1985 treaty between the Vatican and Italy stipulating that clergy aren't obliged to tell magistrates about information obtained through their religious ministry.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I liked the "raping babies" bit, though. That was very creative, and it shows both the lack of bias and devotion to honesty that we've learned we can depend on from you.


Not creative at all, I'm referring to the aiding and abetting of literal baby rapers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Stockton_diocese
The 2006 documentary Deliver Us from Evil is based on accusations that Mahony, while serving as Bishop of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Stockton, knew that Oliver O'Grady, a priest who sexually abused children, including a nine-month-old baby, in a string of Central California towns for 20 years, was a child molester but failed to keep him away from children.


If I recall the documentary correctly that particular baby had to be rushed to the emergency room to stop internal bleeding.



Just curious. If this was just any homosexual, would you be so breathless? Would you support bashing homosexuals, or homosexual organizations?

Or do you suppose that your prosecution might reflect merely your bias against the Catholic church?



It isn't Catholic Bashing when there is a whole string of abuse allegations against the church, and where abuse was deliberately covered up. Catholic Bashing is when you criticize catholics simply for their beliefs, these are actions we are talking about. The global abuse scandal is of unprecedented size, and it has hit almost every country with sizable catholic presence, in Ireland it has turned Ireland from being the most Catholic of countries into one starting to look like the rest of Europe.




njlauren -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/20/2014 4:22:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux



Just curious. If this was just any homosexual, would you be so breathless? Would you support bashing homosexuals, or homosexual organizations?

Or do you suppose that your prosecution might reflect merely your bias against the Catholic church?



Pedophiles are not homosexuals! That is a disgusting accusation.

Not a surprising one, it has been the claim of many on the right wing, assholes like Santorum (a die hard Catholic) say being gay is like being a child molester, and the church leaders during the abuse scandal blamed it on "homosexual elements" out to destroy the church. Pedophiles among other things are attracted to young children, in part because they are fairly androgynous. But don't be surprised, the faithful can always fall back on "it is catholic bashing to criticize them over their handling of abuse", as if they are perfect and can't be criticized, or worse, that an organization we expect to be a moral guardian acts more like the Nixon white house.




njlauren -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/20/2014 4:26:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux



Just curious. If this was just any homosexual, would you be so breathless? Would you support bashing homosexuals, or homosexual organizations?

Or do you suppose that your prosecution might reflect merely your bias against the Catholic church?



Pedophiles are not homosexuals! That is a disgusting accusation.



Predictable firestorm of manufactured bullshit.

I never said homosexuals were pedophiles.
I never said pedophiles were homosexual.

What I said was, if this WERE a homosexual, or a homosexual group (say, nambla, for example), do you suppose GotSteel's opposition would be quite so rabid.

Or put another way, since I don't see GotSteel protesting nambla, I suppose the answer is 'no'.

Or using his words..."Furthermore I don't suspect that I'd be talking about this if it wasn't the catholic church"

So finally for all the cretins that attempt to willfully misunderstand. I don't shy away from stating my opinions.
So when I believe that homosexuals are pedophiles, I'll say it myself.


The point, seemingly missed by most - is that every crime occurs in every organization. You have bad priests, bad jews, bad palestinians. Bad atheits, bad dominants. I find Gotsteels long tirades against the catholic church sensationalist, intolerant, and bigoted.

Is that clear enough?




I have never seen anyone support NAMBLA, and no one is advocating that adults be allowed to have sex with children. This is classic right wing drivel, when you criticize the church, you get "well, what about Nambla"......I don't see anyone supporting NAMBLA, and that includes the LGBT community, all of them denounce it because an adult having sex with children is harmful to the children, they cannot consent...and I defy you. Phydeux, to show me any LGBT group supporting NAMBLA, or any group of mental health professionals. This is what is known as a bullshit smokescreen to cover from reality, that the church decided children weren't worth protecting and allowed pedophiles to stay as priests, and that is not bashing, that is fact.




njlauren -> RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles (4/20/2014 4:31:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux



Just curious. If this was just any homosexual, would you be so breathless? Would you support bashing homosexuals, or homosexual organizations?

Or do you suppose that your prosecution might reflect merely your bias against the Catholic church?



Pedophiles are not homosexuals! That is a disgusting accusation.



Predictable firestorm of manufactured bullshit.

I never said homosexuals were pedophiles.
I never said pedophiles were homosexual.

What I said was, if this WERE a homosexual, or a homosexual group (say, nambla, for example), do you suppose GotSteel's opposition would be quite so rabid.

Or put another way, since I don't see GotSteel protesting nambla, I suppose the answer is 'no'.

Or using his words..."Furthermore I don't suspect that I'd be talking about this if it wasn't the catholic church"

So finally for all the cretins that attempt to willfully misunderstand. I don't shy away from stating my opinions.
So when I believe that homosexuals are pedophiles, I'll say it myself.


The point, seemingly missed by most - is that every crime occurs in every organization. You have bad priests, bad jews, bad palestinians. Bad atheits, bad dominants. I find Gotsteels long tirades against the catholic church sensationalist, intolerant, and bigoted.

Is that clear enough?



You did it again. It remains just as repugnant.


Only in your factless mind.

Wrong.
Nambla is not a homosexual group. It is a pedophile group.


I'm afraid your glaring, gaping logic gaps are showing again.

Its not the North American Man / Child love association. Its the north american man boy love association.

As in. Same Sex. Same sex, latin. Homosexual.

Ie it is certainly a group of homosexual pedophiles.


As in- you and GotSteel have fired off hundreds of blithering tirades against the catholic church because of your prejudices while remaining silent on biggest liberal homosexual group advocating for pedophilia.

Why is that?



Big difference, NAMBLA are pedophilic men who like young boys, and they are denounced by every LGBT group. They are not illegal because advocating for changing the law is not illegal, if they have sex with boys, they will be charged with a crime and sent to Jail. And tell me Phydeaux, do you have any evidence that any LGBT group knew NAMBLA members had sex with children, and didn't report it? NAMBLA is not like an S/M group, they don't have orgies with kids as far as I know, they don't have "play parties", they advocate for changing the law, and if they ever went over that line, LGBT people wouldn't hesistate to report them, unlike the church that has a proven track record of do nothing.




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