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Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 10:14:17 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I know many embrace BDSM M/s D/s as a means to an end, the end being sexual activity akin to the 'BDSM' is all about sex school of thought.

This question is directed to anyone, but especially for those who believe that BDSM is, indeed, all about sex.

What is service with substance? What does it mean to you? Do you require service from your submissive? If submissive, do you provide service? Do you view sexual activities (blow jobs, fucking, etc.) as a service? Is service with substance or substantial service something you seek out in a partner, something you want a potential partner to see in you? 

If BDSM is all about sex, does that mean there is a place for the 'do-me' submissive as long as the end result is some form of sexual act?

For the purpose of this thread, I'm defining 'substance' like substantial.. I.E. content or essence as opposed to form; of real importance, value or validity. Feel free to provide your own definitions in your answer.

Celeste







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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 10:28:38 AM   
KarbonCopy


Posts: 779
Status: offline 		I say if you want to add sex, add it.

If not, dont.

But its definantly not something that has to happen, or cant happen.
Its like any relationship, some have different aspects,

Because one relationship involves blowjobs and foreplay
and another is strictly vanilla missionary sex

doesnt mean that one of them is right.

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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 10:40:43 AM   
sleazybutterfly


Posts: 2801
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline 		I think that most of us know that it should include more than sex.. or be more than based on it.  It is hard to remember that though when you first start talking to a Dom and he asks "Are you a cumslut?, Will you do anal?, What's your favorite position? etc..."
 
I consider it the whole package..the taking care of him, pleasing him, being there for him, domestic duties, the relationship, and also the sex..with I am sure other things thrown in.  The problem is, it does seen to always get centered around that area.  Too many seen this as a way to get sex any time, any way they want it.. sort of like Burger King..they can have it "their way" and the good little sub will go along. 
 
Don't get me wrong, I love sex... not problem with it at all..but I think that like any relationship that is only based on that...there isn't a firm foundation for it lasting.
 
                  JMHO       Respectfully, Andrea
 
 

_____________________________

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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 10:43:24 AM   
HollyS


Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline 		Ahhhh...  a thread near and dear to my heart. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

What is service with substance? What does it mean to you?  Do you view sexual activities (blow jobs, fucking, etc.) as a service? Is service with substance or substantial service something you seek out in a partner, something you want a potential partner to see in you?


Service with substance to me means being of use in whatever way Sir needs.  If he needs me to book a flight or lay out his clothes or make sure to have dinner ordered by the time he gets back from his meeting, those are all ways in which I expect to serve. Sex is a form of service too - much like other things, though I admit it feels a bit different in the "delivery" *wink*.  In looking for a potential partner, it's important to me that he understand both sides -- the practical and the sexual.  I'm fairly holistic and know that if one side or the other is neglected, I am less centered and my work suffers.  But really, if Sir needs a drink or sexual release or simple physical contact, how is providing any of them any less a service than anything else?

quote:

If BDSM is all about sex, does that mean there is a place for the 'do-me' submissive as long as the end result is some form of sexual act?


To me, no, but that's because the motivation from the bottom is all about getting their own needs met regardless of the needs/wants of the top,  not because the end result is sex.  If one's Sir wants a sex slave and is able to find an s-type who is only interested in the sexual aspect, they they'll probably be well-matched.  But coming to the relationship as a "do-me" seems to put one in the driver's seat, which under my schema is dominant behavior rather than submissive behavior. 

All JMO, of course.  Thanks Bita.

~Holly

< Message edited by HollyS -- 7/9/2006 10:44:39 AM >

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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 10:50:25 AM   
Caretakr


Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline 		The whole "focus on sex" thing just brings me back to the randcid taste left in my mouth over the years by a string of do-me bottoms I was silly enough to cater to.

If sex is offered without an inherent desire for more than that-it leaves me quite limp now.

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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 10:55:33 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		Although sex is a very big part of my M/s relationship, it is not the 'all' of it.  We don't live together, so when I am at home alone there are certain things I must do in service to Master such as researching information for him, etc.  There are also rituals (?not sure if that is the correct word) I complete each day that are used to remind me of the fact he owns me. 
Yeah, lots of sex happens when we are together; in fact I asked him once if he considered me 'just' a sex slave.  He laughed and said "No, you are enthralled to Me completely." 
I serve him in whatever capacity he wishes, I obey all his rules.  The substance of our relationship is based on M/s but I do admit that I feel fortunate that his sex drive equals mine. 

quote:

  If BDSM is all about sex, does that mean there is a place for the 'do-me' submissive as long as the end result is some form of sexual act?

For some that is what its all about, so yes, they have their place.  There are 'do-me' dominants as well and if they find each other and are happy with it, yay for them. 

< Message edited by catize -- 7/9/2006 11:07:00 AM >

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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 11:08:15 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline 		Sexual service within BDSM, for me, is part of BDSM.  I understand that it isn’t necessary for all people, but in my relationships it is.  However, sexual service does not BDSM make.  Sexual service does not have to be part of submission, but submission does have to be part of sexual service.
 
As submissive, service is an important part of what I am.  What makes me, me.  I cannot submit without service (yet, I can service without submitting – but that’s a different topic altogether).
 
Yes, in some respects, sex is a service.  It has to be, else it would just be, well boring.  Sex for the sake of sex is mundane.  Wanting to be a sexual pleasure, enhancing yourself and giving something that is so exquisite is a supreme act of submission.  You are giving, not taking.  Even as a dominant receiving sexual service, you give.  You give your dominance and control.
 
Even if BDSM is or was all about the sex, ‘do-me’ submissives IMO, do not really have a place.  That is a demand and has nothing to do with D/s.  The sexual act or service is dependant on the giving.  And the giving is a non-expectant reciprocator – even when it is reciprocated.(I hope I am making sense there, I am tired).
 
Sex in BDSM is service.  It is given with the knowledge that it pleases and is desired.  It isn’t earnt or an expected interchange.  It is a tool to pleasure the other.  Of course there are sexual exchanges within a BDSM context that is entirely selfish.  But in a power exchange, it must, within my relationships be selfless.  It is service with substance and as such, it is always noted as such.  Not because I ‘demand it’ but simply because it is.
 
Peace and Rapture


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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 11:23:40 AM   
DoctorDubious


Posts: 267
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I know many embrace BDSM M/s D/s as a means to an end, the end being sexual activity akin to the 'BDSM' is all about sex school of thought.

This question is directed to anyone, but especially for those who believe that BDSM is, indeed, all about sex.

What is service with substance? What does it mean to you? Do you require service from your submissive? If submissive, do you provide service? Do you view sexual activities (blow jobs, fucking, etc.) as a service? Is service with substance or substantial service something you seek out in a partner, something you want a potential partner to see in you? 

If BDSM is all about sex, does that mean there is a place for the 'do-me' submissive as long as the end result is some form of sexual act?

For the purpose of this thread, I'm defining 'substance' like substantial.. I.E. content or essence as opposed to form; of real importance, value or validity. Feel free to provide your own definitions in your answer.

Celeste




Hey Celeste, ... and all...

Well, I can only speak for myself,
and I suspect I'll wander off into artsy-fartsy-land
in this forum of experienced, pragmatic and  practical paddlers...

First, I wonder about this pre-supposition
>>those who believe that BDSM is, indeed, all about sex.
and
>>many embrace BDSM M/s D/s as a means to an end, the end being sexual activity akin to the 'BDSM' is all about sex school of thought.

if that was really true,
and your only goal is to fuck her  (adjust for your own gender pref's)
then why bother to go to all the
expense, fuss, maintenace, and precious closet-space
for ropes and paddlers and floggers and all that shit....

Think about it... if you're just a horn-dog
... (not that there's anything wrong with that) ...
why not just  join a bunch of swing clubs,
maybe start your own "cuckold of the month club"
write a buncha attractive profiles all over the place...
and get really busy just pounding pussy...
if that's the be-all and end-all.

Thats gotta be more practical, eh?

**************************

OK... now for the artsy-fartsy stuff....

First, bondage... which I personally think
is not at all the same as submission/surender/dom/authority...

For me,
bondage is the most sexually charged thing I know.

But what is sex (or service in your terms) really?

Am I having sex
if I tie my woman up,
make her deliciously helpless and available...
look her in the eyes a long long time,
tell her how much I love the way she looks in this predicament,
spank her hard for a long slow time, till tears fill her eyes...
.... and I lick those tears away....

For me, that's sex.

And... If I've got my little room tricked out
with a microphone and amps,
and a mixer with lots of reverb cranked up high...

and every slap of the hand,
whap of the flogger...
or the whistling of the freshly-cut switch of willow
followed by the snap on the flesh...
and every gasp,
and cry,
and moan,
and plea
all the time
.. echos... and repeats... and echos again...
and fills that little room totally...
with all those horrible/wonderful sounds...

.. and we both get so into it
that all the thoughts go away, and the world goes away...

Well, I think that's about as sexy as it cums, ya know?

And sure, most of the time, my dick will find a warm wet place...
... but is that all sex is about?  That's what "service" means?

Not for me. 

Quick executive summary for the busy floggee...
1. bondage is very erotic.
2. sex is more than penetration and orgasm.
3. bondage is intimate commuication,
thru flesh and trust and restraint and ordeal, instead of mere words.

******************

Now, submission and surrender
have a minor subset of sex.... for me....

But I see that more as a spiritual path
that I cannot walk alone... nor can she....
we draw on each's gift
... her submission and surrender
... my authority and leadership
to explore deeper and deeper into trust,
and spirit, and self-expression and love.

Blah blah blah blah ....
10,000 artsy, over-wrought words deleted here.
(thank your gods, gentle readers)

**********************
.... and now that I circle back
to your original post, so I can hit that OK button...
I wonder, actually, what you are gettin at...

I think I "lost your thread" somewhere...

DD .... an artsy farts frisky old goat, who does "go on" a bit...

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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 11:30:24 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I use sex as both punishment and reward.

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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 11:50:53 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I think many of us were drawn to Ds relationship forms because we knew that our sexual fantasies and needs were not quite like other people that we had been intimate with. We felt there was something not quite right perhaps. At least this was the case for me. As I began exploring different aspects of BDSM, Ds became the main focus for me because I saw this as being the cornerstone of my own sexuality... pleasing someone else... not caring if I got off if I gave pleasure to my partner... enjoying being used without my own orgasm being even thought about at times. I realized my submissiveness was not the do-me type almost immediately. My focus was on my partner's satisfaction, and not just sexually, but emotionally.

Here is where it gets tricky, my Dom most enjoys the pleasure he gives both of us. He knows I enjoy being used for the sake of being used, he does so gladly. He is the type of dominant that derives the most pleasure out of the relationship when we are giving pleasure to each other in our own way... me by being a submissive, he by being the dominant. What is the substance to this? I know without going into detail what our dynamic is, and it is very much not a bedroom activity, but all the time... Does that mean it is 24-7 when we are together? I do not know. All I know is that when I am with him I feel so happy when he is, and he feels the same way, and I do what I am told, gladly. I treasure his dominance over me, why would I want it only in the bedroom? For me, this just isn't enough.

Do I think that the do-me, bedroom, sexual submissive/dominant has less substance than a couple that takes it out of the bedroom? Absolutely not! To them their relationship fills their needs, makes them happy, and has its own indescribable substance.... Just as mine does. It is just different, but I have no value judgment to make about it.

You know I have read many people post things about their relationships such as they want to rebel, feel lied to, have insecurities, wonder where they stand with each other... and they are in everything from Ms to bedroom Ds relationships... my point is that we have the same problems no matter what we call ourselves. We have the same joys with each other too. As far as romantic BDSM goes, isn't it the love, trust, and communication that make the substance between two people? IMO I would rather be in a mature vanilla relationship with that sort of substance than in a TPE relationship that had none... because in my mind, and in my heart that is where the substance comes from... our feelings for each other.

Now I know I am speaking from a particular viewpoint, and that others do not have love relationships as a part of their brand of BDSM. I acknowledge that mine is not the only valid view...

Just my thoughts

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/9/2006 11:53:55 AM >

_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 11:51:27 AM   
losttreasure


Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly

I think that most of us know that it should include more than sex.. or be more than based on it.  It is hard to remember that though when you first start talking to a Dom and he asks "Are you a cumslut?, Will you do anal?, What's your favorite position? etc..."



*laughs*  So true, Andrea.  I can honestly say that among the hundreds of questions I've been asked, I've never once been asked whether I can cook, sew, clean house, change a tire, speak a foreign language, balance a checkbook, plan a fundraiser, earn a decent income, or any number of other talents or abilities that might make me a more desirable submissive.  Yet, I've been asked every one of the intimate and sexual questions you've mentioned, and more. 

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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 11:57:28 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

Do I think that the do-me, bedroom, sexual submissive/dominant has less substance than a couple that takes it out of the bedroom? Absolutely not! To them their relationship fills their needs, makes them happy, and has its own indescribable substance.... Just as mine does. It is just different, but I have no value judgment to make about it.

Now see, I see 'do-me' submissives as topping from below(negatively) - and although theres nothing wrong with that - I do not see that as submission.  A sexual submissive I have never seen as a 'do-me' submissive.  Maybe there is just a misunderstanding of what they are on my part.  I don't even see 'do-me' submissives as play submissives or bottoms.  I just see the term as a derogetry word for those 'pretending' submission - which isnt bad in itself, but as those who call them 'wannabees' and 'pretenders' It doesn't have anything to do with D/s.  Its play, but just for play sake, not for D/s or BDSM.
That is why I see 'do-me' persons as having a negative impact.
 
Peace and Rapture


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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 12:05:24 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I have heard of do-mes described as people with fetish lists, and as you describe, topping from the bottom.... it really doesn't matter to me if a do-me is engaging in Ds or not, because a do-me topping from the bottom is still engaging in BDSM, which was what the thread addressed, BDSM. A do-me can have a relationship with a service top and it is still a valid BDSM relationship which feeds the needs and desires of the couple. It has its own substance. If they are happy, trusting, and fulfilled it may have more substance than many other relationships in the BDSM world.

I think this is where a thread that mistoferin posted awhile ago would come in handy... "you are 'just a' service top, 'just a' bedroom sub, 'just a' do-me submissive". I do not think one paradigm is superior to another.. but that is "just an" opinion...smiles

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 12:11:53 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
Yup - where is erin when we need her?
 
I guess I dont see do-me types as submissives.  I dont see them as lesser people, but I do not see a positive outcome in a D/s context.  I know that there are people who accept them and work with them - but it confuses the dynamic of the power exchange.  There are subs who Top.  I am one of them.  But I top because its desired by the dominant, and he finds it pleasing.  That is a service.  Do mes, I see as not providing a service, but rather demanding one upon themselves.  Maybe its just you and I mixing and seeing terms differently.  I just do not see how a do-me is acting with submission.  If they are pronouncing 'do me' because the Dominant wants that - then that is submission - but to demand a do - is different altogether.
 
Peace and Rapture 


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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 12:21:12 PM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Hello Celeste,

What a great question.  I look forward to reading some of the responses and yours as well (hopefully).


In my opinion we serve (to some degree, all of us) pretty much on and off throughout the regular course of life.. unless you are a hermit or something.  Even little things like taking out the trash for your elderly mom, or helping out watching a neighbors kid can be looked at as service.  I do not put an awful lot of substance in that service, on a personal level, however.

For me, the substance I think you spoke of came very specifically with my former owner.   Though there was, just for the maintenance of daily co-habitation, a certain amount of drudge like service (which didn't really bother me at all) that too, I think didn't quite count as the sort of substantial service that you speak of... though it could...

The thing I think which makes something 'substantial' is a cognizance of something 'special'. 

We, all of us, are capable of making something holy.  Making anything and any act sacred.  It is in that knowing that I think I found the transformation of even something as mundane as bringing food to his table, an act very similar to a sacrament, when that awareness  was 'turned on'.  I think that awareness must be on at the same time by both people, as well.


Hmm... I am not explaining myself well with the World Cup on... dang it!  I wonder if this makes any sense to anyone but me?

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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 12:23:19 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I do not know whether they are or they are not... that isn't my point

BDSM encompasses many forms of sexuality and relationship dynamics... not all are Ds/Ms... It doesn't matter to me whether a do me is a sub or not,.. it is still a valid relationship in the BDSM paradigm. There are switches too, and I doubt highly you would say they are not a valid BDSM category... perhaps do mes need their own place? I do not know, and since I am not one it isn't a debate I am emotionally wed to...

A relationship in which the bottom tells the top how to beat and they get tied up while it happens is still a BDSM relationship in that there was bondage and sadomasochism involved. Perhaps the only place the do me does this behavior is in a sexual way, perhaps they are submissive in every other way? Human relationships are so diverse it really is hard to say.

I know that my Dom has been told because he enjoys giving oral that makes him a service top... it is really silly, but some think that narrowly when looking at people in WIITWD... Im not going to label people, isn't my job

_____________________________

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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 12:31:14 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

A relationship in which the bottom tells the top how to beat and they get tied up while it happens is still a BDSM relationship in that there was bondage and sadomasochism involved. Perhaps the only place the do me does this behavior is in a sexual way, perhaps they are submissive in every other way? Human relationships are so diverse it really is hard to say.

So, julia, is a person, within that relationship a do me submissive?  Because now I am confused...lol.  If that is what a 'do me' is, then sure, they have a place.  I was under the impression that a do-me was like the term vanilla - meaning not BDSM.  So thats why I answered the way I did.  Like I said, I am not making the statement based on judging them as lesser people, just in the UK - I have always been led to believe that 'do me' subs is a derogetory word to express someone who 'pretends' submission to gain position. (Hence, I never use the term and only did so in the context of this thread) Maybe it is different elsewhere and it's one of those 'terms' that mean different things to different people.
 
Peace and Rapture


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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 12:34:56 PM   
LeatherBentOne


Posts: 469
Joined: 9/27/2005
Status: offline 		For me, being sexual or asexual varies with every partner I've had, do now have, and will ever have in the future if the occasion presents itself, including my sexual limits.  It just depends on the dynamic in each relationship.  That's what gives it substance for me.  I seldom include my brain in the respect that I plan out details but the urge most always starts between my ears.  I let spontaneity takes its course, relax and enjoy.  Fortunately, I'm able to control the encounter through my spontaneity ~ and in turn ~ I give up my control and replace it with the freedom to enjoy all types of naughty lil sexual pleasures.
LeatherBentOne 

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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 12:44:51 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		It is derrogatory and I do not think it should be IMO.

I am going on your definition... someone that tops from the bottom. I do think that in a Ds relationship this would be confusing. There are some people that get off mutually on such things. There are some people that love a do me, they love to service the do me, and maybe in their mind they are doing Ds. I know the first sub my Dom owned was a do me painslut, he was a newbie dom that caught on quickly to the game and released her. He doesn't think she was a submissive, does that means she isn't capable of interacting within the lifestyle? Does that mean that someone else will not find her to be a submissive? I do not know. I do not care to be honest because this isn't me.

I will reiterate this one more time... I think that BDSM does not just encompass Ds/Ms relationships, but others as well, and I do think that Ds is just ONE aspect of BDSM. People switch, people bottom, people top, people are fetishists...They are all practicing BDSM. I see a do me as practicing BDSM. It doesn't matter if she is another person's idea of a submissive at all, what matters is she engages in certain sexual actions that fall under the umbrella of BDSM.

I have a problem with the term do me in general as I said earlier in my post. It implies that someone else's kink is somehow vanilla because they do not do it like another person does. I think that insulting people because their way of interacting is different than your way of interacting is well.. shallow. I know do mes exist, but I do not consider them not involved with the "lifestyle", when so many of them so obviously ARE.

edited for typo

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/9/2006 1:01:54 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Service with Substance - 7/9/2006 12:57:19 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

A relationship in which the bottom tells the top how to beat and they get tied up while it happens is still a BDSM relationship in that there was bondage and sadomasochism involved. Perhaps the only place the do me does this behavior is in a sexual way, perhaps they are submissive in every other way? Human relationships are so diverse it really is hard to say.

So, julia, is a person, within that relationship a do me submissive?  Because now I am confused...lol.  If that is what a 'do me' is, then sure, they have a place.  I was under the impression that a do-me was like the term vanilla - meaning not BDSM.  So thats why I answered the way I did.  Like I said, I am not making the statement based on judging them as lesser people, just in the UK - I have always been led to believe that 'do me' subs is a derogetory word to express someone who 'pretends' submission to gain position. (Hence, I never use the term and only did so in the context of this thread) Maybe it is different elsewhere and it's one of those 'terms' that mean different things to different people.
 
Peace and Rapture



Maybe it would clarify to refer to them as "do me" bottoms.
 
Service, to me, encompasses much. Sex, you bet your sweet patootie. Also caring for my needs and desires in other ways, be it helping clean and cook, fetching me a bit of information, cuddling, and certainly looking after her own well-being, mental, physical, and spiritual, with my help.
 
To serve me, you need to obey me, and please me.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 20
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