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LookieNoNookie -> RE: Liberal delusions on racism (5/14/2014 3:54:22 PM)
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ORIGINAL: Zonie63
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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
The original argument was about racism, ThompsonX immediately responded with (Post#2): "Perhaps if racists stoped being racist then the libs couldn't play the race card". It devolved from there into older white males being racists (only), then it devolved further into blacks not being successful (singularly) as a group, then into "if you stopped killing your children/leaving your women pregnant with no fathers" etc. etc.
It finally evolved into (but for a few disjointed posters) a discussion about success, devolving back into a discussion that white males can't understand the history of blacks, therefore their struggle to succeed.
Almost all of my posts have been entirely misquoted or misconstrued, nearly all of which come down to:
If you want something....shoot for it. You've got a better chance of hitting it than if you never try.
Perhaps some of your posts have been misquoted or misconstrued. I've had the same thing happen to me before. I'm not entirely sure how telling a group of (mainly) white posters on a message board to work hard and succeed actually addresses the problem of racism or social inequities in this country. That may be why your posts were misconstrued, since they were interpreted within the context of the overall topic.
I've been following the thread as well, and regardless of how you feel about Thompsonx, he did have a point about how liberals couldn't play the race card if there weren't those who make it so easy for them.
And yes, there were those who felt the problem was not due to racism as much as it was due to a sub-culture of children born out of wedlock, drug abuse, gang violence, etc. A suggestion was raised that these problems should be stopped, although that's pretty obvious. Of course, those problems should be stopped, and there's nobody more aware of this than those who have to live with these problems in their neighborhoods every day. ("Gee, we should stop all the violence and drug abuse??!? That sounds like a great idea! Why didn't we think of that before?")
When those who come from more privileged backgrounds come in with a kind of condescending, superior attitude, it tends to rub people the wrong way. I'm not saying that it's overtly racist, although whenever wealthy white people exude an attitude that "I am superior and I know what's best for you people," it might be so interpreted (even if one's intentions are ostensibly to be helpful and benevolent).
I realize that you may not have intended to come across that way.
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That, unfortunately, isn't adequate apparently to assuage those who simply desire to stay right where they are.
(Which works just fine for me....it provides employees).
Some people might feel different callings in life. You're assuming that people are where they are because they've never tried to do better. This isn't strictly true. One can find a lot of "has beens" and "coulda beens" in the lower classes - not because they didn't try or didn't want better, but other circumstances got in the way. Some people may not be as driven or as ambitious as you are - or maybe they're squeamish about walking over other bodies on their way to the top. It's not always a question of hard work, but in some businesses, you have to develop a certain toughness and a hardened attitude. If the history of business and industry is anything to go by, it seems that, for the most part, one has to be somewhat ruthless and amoral to reach the top and stay there.
Some people just aren't up to that. It doesn't mean that they don't want to work or improve their lot in life, but they may not be too keen on playing that dog-eat-dog "game" with a bunch unscrupulous, unprincipled assholes. They might be inclined to reject that kind of bullshit and try to find their own way - and this is where the problem comes in. Some people might just reject the system and society altogether, and some might be inclined to rebel.
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As to those who might benefit from the status quo, I, as a lifelong Republican was thrilled about Obamacare (still am in concept, but it needs work), I think the wealthy should pay significantly more, but I also think everyone should pay something (federal income tax....I know, I get it....everyone already pays something....just not federal income tax), I think ALL income should be taxed identically, no special deals for unearned (stocks/real estate) income versus earned income (labor/wages).
I think a lot of things in our government need work. However, I'm not so naive as to believe that the way to solve a problem is to throw money at it. I think we, as a country, need to spend smarter, demand a bigger bang from our buck. There might be ways of overhauling the tax system, too, and there might be other ways of raising revenue and other things to tax. Of course, the other side of this is keeping spending under control. The main problem with Obamacare was that there was nothing about keeping costs down. I'm a believer in price controls, so that would have been my suggestion for controlling healthcare costs. Just control them.
My father and most of his side of the family were lifelong Republicans, so I really have nothing against Republicans on any personal level. My mother and her side of the family were lifelong Democrats, so I really have nothing against Democrats either. My main complaint about the political parties is that they seem to put more emphasis on ideology and politics - and they seem reluctant to just look at a situation objectively, analytically, and logically, in order to try to reach some sort of conclusion and possible solution.
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As to the USA being a beacon of opportunity, my God....of course it is....and there are billionaires in China too (many of whom did so without any state or governmental influence or advantage).
Where you came from is your good or bad fortune in life, but it is where you begin, by default.
Where you end up is entirely up to you.
No one else.
I think there are many great and wonderful things about the USA. Though sometimes, I think that many of us get too distracted by certain myths and political slogans which might make people feel good, but tend to present an oversimplified, rose-colored view of reality of life in these United States.
Sure, there are billionaires in China - along with a billion Chinese who aren't billionaires - but are living better than they were a generation or two ago. China might very well be a beacon of opportunity for some. There are Russian billionaires, too. I'm sure there are plenty of rags-to-riches anecdotes one can draw from, as I see you've told a few already. It happens, although I think we also have to look at the situation from the big picture, as it is from society as a whole.
That is, if what you're saying is true, that people end up in the situation they're in due to their own choices, then this would imply that people end up in bad situations due to their own bad choices. If this is true, then it still begs the question as to why and what's causing it. If we can accurately determine the cause, we'll be better equipped to find a solution.
One of the best posts on this subject since it began.
Excellent points. Exceptionally well put.
It's true, some don't aspire to higher positions (I don't aspire to Richard Branson's lot) and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
My argument has been throughout....that "it can't be done" (by some races because of their history) is just plain fallacy.
Unless you have physical or mental limitations that truly limit you (Stephen Hawking excluded because, his brain will likely be preserved, plugged in to some nuclear source and continue working for us through the year 4,219), you can absolutely achieve more.
I absolutely can't stand comments, they make me cringe, that because of some races awful history, they're subject to some horrible future.
It's simply not true.
There are worse histories out there, case studies that will prove every reason to stay in a double wide, with yet myriad who have reached for a star and landed on it.
The "impossible".
Nothing's impossible.
Lot's of shit is improbable.
For some.
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