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RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/7/2014 9:35:47 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

there's only a handful of non-Christians in the town.

Six percent of the population is Jewish, and 9.8% are "other" (apparently non-Christian).

That seems like more than a "handful."

http://www.city-data.com/city/Greece-New-York.html

One of the petitioners was Jewish. But she was an Atheist. I couldn't find any synagogues or Buddhist temples listed in Greece, NY, but the town did manage to find a Wiccan and a Baha’i. In any case, as per my previous post, greater inclusion of other faiths was not the object of the case.

K.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 101

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/7/2014 9:40:24 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

government must permit a prayer giver to address his or her own God or gods as conscience dictates, unfettered by what an administrator or judge considers to be nonsectarian. ~Justice Kennedy

Suppose one's conscience directs him or her to dig up this gem from the old Good Friday liturgy?

Let us pray also for the faithless Jews {perfidis Judaeis}: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness {Judaicam perfidiam}: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen.

The Good Friday liturgy still includes prayers for the conversion of the Jews, but they're not quite this harsh.

_____________________________

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it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 102

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/7/2014 9:42:49 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

One of the petitioners was Jewish. But she was an Atheist. I couldn't find any synagogues or Buddhist temples listed in Greece, NY, but the town did manage to find a Wiccan and a Baha’i. In any case, as per my previous post, greater inclusion of other faiths was not the object of the case.

All interesting but irrelevant to the inaccuracy of your "handful of non-Christians" assertion.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 103

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/7/2014 10:06:23 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

All interesting but irrelevant to the inaccuracy of your "handful of non-Christians" assertion.

Well firstly, that depends on your definition of a "handful." Secondly, you posted misleading figures. The 6% Jewish and 9.8% "other" (which you deemed "more than a handful") are from the breakdown of the 54% of the population who are affiliated with a religious congregation. The remaining 46% of the population are not. So taken together, those percentages comprise only 8.5% of the total population, which I think might reasonably be characterized as a "handful." But thirdly, it wasn't "my" assertion in the first place. It came from your source (here).

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/7/2014 10:21:11 PM >

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 104

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/7/2014 10:17:20 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

government must permit a prayer giver to address his or her own God or gods as conscience dictates, unfettered by what an administrator or judge considers to be nonsectarian. ~Justice Kennedy

Suppose one's conscience directs him or her to dig up this gem from the old Good Friday liturgy?

Let us pray also for the faithless Jews {perfidis Judaeis}: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness {Judaicam perfidiam}: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen.

The Good Friday liturgy still includes prayers for the conversion of the Jews, but they're not quite this harsh.

Can you read, or are you just in a cranky mood tonight?

Kennedy went on to stress that such invocations were not without constraint. Public prayers must be “solemn and respectful in tone” and aimed at inviting lawmakers to “reflect on shared ideals and common ends.” He warned that prayers might cross a constitutional line if the invocations “denigrate nonbelievers or religious minorities, threaten damnation, or preach conversion.” ~Source (previously cited)

K.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 105

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/7/2014 10:19:44 PM

DaddySatyr

Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

One of the petitioners was Jewish. But she was an Atheist.

K.

See, I don't know if the person in question identified this way but it's things like this that really fuck up statistics (that and people warping them to prove a point).

I may not be the most intelligent guy on the planet but my understanding of atheism is that it's a binary state; one either believes in a deity (or deities) or they do not.

My understanding of Judaism is that one of the basic tenets is to be Jewish, one must believe in a deity.

Am I missing something, here?

Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 5/7/2014 10:20:18 PM >

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(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 106

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/7/2014 10:28:45 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Despite there being several Jewish synagogues and a Buddhist temple in the city the council only called on Christian ministers to give the invocation.

Yellowpages.com lists NO synagogues in Greece, NY.

http://www.yellowpages.com/greece-ny/synagogue

And according to the Christian Science Monitor, "a Wiccan priestess, a lay Jewish man, and a representative from a local Baha’i group" were invited to give invocations.

Dumbass liar.

Yellowpages.com doesn't have a Buddhist temple listed in Greece, NY, either.

And that is the same dodge the city council tried to use. Read the case, dumbass.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 107

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/7/2014 10:34:00 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Despite there being several Jewish synagogues and a Buddhist temple in the city the council only called on Christian ministers to give the invocation.

Yellowpages.com lists NO synagogues in Greece, NY.

http://www.yellowpages.com/greece-ny/synagogue

And according to the Christian Science Monitor, "a Wiccan priestess, a lay Jewish man, and a representative from a local Baha’i group" were invited to give invocations.

Dumbass liar.

Yellowpages.com doesn't have a Buddhist temple listed in Greece, NY, either.

And that is the same dodge the city council tried to use. Read the case, dumbass.

Oh really? It mentioned yellowpages.com? I must be psychic. Do let's have the link. I want to bronze it.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 108

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/7/2014 10:34:23 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

One of the petitioners was Jewish. But she was an Atheist.

K.

See, I don't know if the person in question identified this way but it's things like this that really fuck up statistics (that and people warping them to prove a point).

I may not be the most intelligent guy on the planet but my understanding of atheism is that it's a binary state; one either believes in a deity (or deities) or they do not.

My understanding of Judaism is that one of the basic tenets is to be Jewish, one must believe in a deity.

Am I missing something, here?

Jews, even ones who don't practice the faith, do consider themselves part of an ethnic group.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)

Post #: 109

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/7/2014 10:36:00 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Despite there being several Jewish synagogues and a Buddhist temple in the city the council only called on Christian ministers to give the invocation.

Yellowpages.com lists NO synagogues in Greece, NY.

http://www.yellowpages.com/greece-ny/synagogue

And according to the Christian Science Monitor, "a Wiccan priestess, a lay Jewish man, and a representative from a local Baha’i group" were invited to give invocations.

Dumbass liar.

Yellowpages.com doesn't have a Buddhist temple listed in Greece, NY, either.

And that is the same dodge the city council tried to use. Read the case, dumbass.

Oh really? It mentioned yellowpages.com? I must be psychic. Do let's have the link. I want to bronze it.

The city council claimed they looked for churches in the phone book. look it up dumbass.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 110

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/7/2014 10:47:05 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Despite there being several Jewish synagogues and a Buddhist temple in the city the council only called on Christian ministers to give the invocation.

Yellowpages.com lists NO synagogues in Greece, NY.

http://www.yellowpages.com/greece-ny/synagogue

And according to the Christian Science Monitor, "a Wiccan priestess, a lay Jewish man, and a representative from a local Baha’i group" were invited to give invocations.

Dumbass liar.

Yellowpages.com doesn't have a Buddhist temple listed in Greece, NY, either.

And that is the same dodge the city council tried to use. Read the case, dumbass.

Oh really? It mentioned yellowpages.com? I must be psychic. Do let's have the link. I want to bronze it.

The city council claimed they looked for churches in the phone book. look it up dumbass.

Oh, not yellowpages.com? Damn. The phone book, eh? Well that was a silly thing for them to do, wasn't it.

They should have asked you!

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/7/2014 10:50:25 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 111

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/8/2014 5:34:16 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Despite there being several Jewish synagogues and a Buddhist temple in the city the council only called on Christian ministers to give the invocation.

Yellowpages.com lists NO synagogues in Greece, NY.

http://www.yellowpages.com/greece-ny/synagogue

And according to the Christian Science Monitor, "a Wiccan priestess, a lay Jewish man, and a representative from a local Baha’i group" were invited to give invocations.

Dumbass liar.

Yellowpages.com doesn't have a Buddhist temple listed in Greece, NY, either.

And that is the same dodge the city council tried to use. Read the case, dumbass.

Oh really? It mentioned yellowpages.com? I must be psychic. Do let's have the link. I want to bronze it.

The city council claimed they looked for churches in the phone book. look it up dumbass.

Oh, not yellowpages.com? Damn. The phone book, eh? Well that was a silly thing for them to do, wasn't it.

They should have asked you!

What they should have done is not lied. The depositions made it clear they were inviting the clergy they knew. It was only when the lawsuit was threatened that they started going to the phone book and claiming to find nothing but Christian churches. Turned out the Buddhist temple in town doesn't have a phone and the synagogues are across the street in Rochester. However that doesn't change the fact that having a city council open it's business with a sectarian Christian prayer every month for years is a violation of the establishment clause no matter what the 5 nitwit conservatives on SCOTUS claim.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 112

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/8/2014 5:47:58 AM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline

Why should one sect have to hunt down another sect to represent their own sect? Why doesn't offended sect, stand up, represent that sect instead of complaining about the discrimination of it all? That's a thought. Then if the Christians act like a bunch of dumb dumbs, then you are right. If they do get upset and start trouble then they really are not practicing what they preach are they?

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 113

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/8/2014 6:06:47 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Why should one sect have to hunt down another sect to represent their own sect? Why doesn't offended sect, stand up, represent that sect instead of complaining about the discrimination of it all? That's a thought. Then if the Christians act like a bunch of dumb dumbs, then you are right. If they do get upset and start trouble then they really are not practicing what they preach are they?

How about they all just stay out? Why should any of them be actively looking for city council meetings to pray at?

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 114

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/8/2014 6:14:36 AM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline

because we can..... and for some, its like breathing. How about you find something less petty to petition?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Why should one sect have to hunt down another sect to represent their own sect? Why doesn't offended sect, stand up, represent that sect instead of complaining about the discrimination of it all? That's a thought. Then if the Christians act like a bunch of dumb dumbs, then you are right. If they do get upset and start trouble then they really are not practicing what they preach are they?

How about they all just stay out? Why should any of them be actively looking for city council meetings to pray at?

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 115

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/8/2014 7:18:41 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

because we can..... and for some, its like breathing. How about you find something less petty to petition?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Why should one sect have to hunt down another sect to represent their own sect? Why doesn't offended sect, stand up, represent that sect instead of complaining about the discrimination of it all? That's a thought. Then if the Christians act like a bunch of dumb dumbs, then you are right. If they do get upset and start trouble then they really are not practicing what they preach are they?

How about they all just stay out? Why should any of them be actively looking for city council meetings to pray at?

Have you read the first amendment? Just because some sects don't feel the need to proselytize does not change the first amendment.

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 116

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/8/2014 7:34:21 AM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline

Hmmm, well I don't think they are taking a baptismal in there, and calling anyone to the alter. Its not about proselytizing you are mistaken.

If there is such a low tolerance toward something that you do not understand, why would you really expect tolerance from others on other issues? Just saying.

I read it.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 117

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/8/2014 7:37:44 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Hmmm, well I don't think they are taking a baptismal in there, and calling anyone to the alter. Its not about proselytizing you are mistaken.

If there is such a low tolerance toward something that you do not understand, why would you really expect tolerance from others on other issues? Just saying.

I read it.

What is it if it isn't proselytizing? Exactly. In detail.

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 118

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/8/2014 7:47:25 AM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Despite there being several Jewish synagogues and a Buddhist temple in the city the council only called on Christian ministers to give the invocation.

Yellowpages.com lists NO synagogues in Greece, NY.

http://www.yellowpages.com/greece-ny/synagogue

And according to the Christian Science Monitor, "a Wiccan priestess, a lay Jewish man, and a representative from a local Baha’i group" were invited to give invocations.

You have a nice day now.

K.

I think it's really great that the atheists can set aside their agenda of telling us all how ignorant anyone with a belief system is, to come in and tell us how concerned they are about those poor people who are being bullied by those evil christians. And how they should be allowed to say their prayers also. Of course next week they will be back to preaching about how all religion is wrong and evil but for just a minute you might get the idea they actually give a fuck about someone.

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(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 119

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with pr... - 5/8/2014 7:50:39 AM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline

Kirata already posted on it. To bring wisdom, right choices, to their decisions. It is not to make people feel uncomfortable or wasting time. Although you don't prescribe, you may look at it this way, based on their belief system they take the time to ask for knowledge when they are in charge of directing a lot of people. Wouldn't you rather they do the best job they can, instead of worrying what every Tom, Dick or Harry decided how unjust they are, how much time they waste, how wrong it is? They really aren't going to concern about petty things, when the issues they are making decisions on are much larger and not so petty.

Now you can try to understand it or complain about it.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 120

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