RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer!

RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/8/2014 7:51:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Despite there being several Jewish synagogues and a Buddhist temple in the city the council only called on Christian ministers to give the invocation. Yellowpages.com lists NO synagogues in Greece, NY. http://www.yellowpages.com/greece-ny/synagogue And according to the Christian Science Monitor, "a Wiccan priestess, a lay Jewish man, and a representative from a local Baha’i group" were invited to give invocations. You have a nice day now. K. I think it's really great that the atheists can set aside their agenda of telling us all how ignorant anyone with a belief system is, to come in and tell us how concerned they are about those poor people who are being bullied by those evil christians. And how they should be allowed to say their prayers also. Of course next week they will be back to preaching about how all religion is wrong and evil but for just a minute you might get the idea they actually give a fuck about someone. Always a pleasure to be trolled by you. While I think all religions are fairly stupid I do firmly believe in none of them taking over. This case is about an establishment clause issue. Maybe you should try understanding that.

thishereboi -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/8/2014 7:52:25 AM)
I understand you quite well, thanks.

joether -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/8/2014 8:14:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: joether That's right, the conservative justices once more handed the GOP another win. You're making shit up again... You know all those times when I say I disagree with President Obama? That you and others have called me on? There's something you should know about your memory of that.... It's not a real memory. An yet the reality is one to which your posting on. So who really has a bad memory here? Or did you not bother to read that I was against the administration's position here? Oh yeah, that's right, you did! Because you initially replied to it. So therefore, you were acknowledging that I was disagreeing with the President, and agreeing at the same time that unlike you, I do disagree with liberals from time to time. Yes, memory is the second thing to go... ...can not remember what the first was....

Zonie63 -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/8/2014 8:30:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 Kirata already posted on it. To bring wisdom, right choices, to their decisions. It is not to make people feel uncomfortable or wasting time. Although you don't prescribe, you may look at it this way, based on their belief system they take the time to ask for knowledge when they are in charge of directing a lot of people. Wouldn't you rather they do the best job they can, instead of worrying what every Tom, Dick or Harry decided how unjust they are, how much time they waste, how wrong it is? They really aren't going to concern about petty things, when the issues they are making decisions on are much larger and not so petty. Now you can try to understand it or complain about it. The idea of politicians praying for wisdom is like bankers praying for generosity. There are some people who might join certain churches because they think it might help their career or business. They look and act the part quite well, even if they don't actually practice those beliefs or even believe at all. Politicians can be expected to do that, too, and frankly, I find many politicians quite shrewd in how they pander along those lines. I think I can understand it pretty well, and even if the Supreme Court has decided matter Constitutionally (although that doesn't mean the ruling can't be reversed at some point later on), one could also complain about it as being hypocritical and deceptive. It seems just like more shameless pandering, and it seems that some Christians are cheering about being pandered to. So many of them send their hard-earned money to crooked televangelists and also support crooked politicians - all because they're so clever in whipping a little Jesus talk to dazzle and delight the hoi polloi. And the Christian public just eats it up like milk served to kittens. And while many keep railing against the U.S. government, they don't seem to see the connection between the activities of the government and these various jackals and phonies they keep voting for, election after election. That's one problem I find with the idea of "faith," is that it seems to produce a certain naive blindness and gullibility which is both touching and infuriating when it's applied to the electoral process. It's not that I'm unsympathetic, and I know many Christians who are more street-wise and can easily see through the lies and BS of politicians who pander like that. But so many others just seem so easily led.

chatterbox24 -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/8/2014 9:18:01 AM)
OH that's right, there is always that, that Christians are feeble minded stopid sheep. Who follow a pointing shepard's finger over cliffs, one by one we point our little hoofs gladly into an arch to never never land. LMAO. The Shepard throws his head back in a sinister laugh in defeat and gets rammed in the butt by one of the sheep and the bad shepherd falls over the cliff along with the innocents he lead. Poor guy. [sm=rofl.gif] There are a lot of insincere people out there, but there are some good people too. Sad that's what a lot of people mostly see.

DomKen -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/8/2014 9:26:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 Kirata already posted on it. To bring wisdom, right choices, to their decisions. It is not to make people feel uncomfortable or wasting time. Although you don't prescribe, you may look at it this way, based on their belief system they take the time to ask for knowledge when they are in charge of directing a lot of people. Wouldn't you rather they do the best job they can, instead of worrying what every Tom, Dick or Harry decided how unjust they are, how much time they waste, how wrong it is? They really aren't going to concern about petty things, when the issues they are making decisions on are much larger and not so petty. Now you can try to understand it or complain about it. So you think a holy man casting a spell before a meeting will make the city council wiser. Really? I'm sorry but I find advertising for the sect a lot easier to buy.

chatterbox24 -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/8/2014 9:40:14 AM)
Casting a spell?[8\|] OH no you found out the secret, we are all witch doctors, with tiny voo doo dolls in our back pocket, You are silly. SILLY. Maybe not as silly as me, but silly. I feel like the teacher on Charlie Brown....wah wah wah wha wha.....ha... I am going to go talk to a brick wall now or a glass, or the dog or cat.[:D]

dcnovice -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/8/2014 9:43:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice All interesting but irrelevant to the inaccuracy of your "handful of non-Christians" assertion. Well firstly, that depends on your definition of a "handful." Secondly, you posted misleading figures. The 6% Jewish and 9.8% "other" (which you deemed "more than a handful") are from the breakdown of the 54% of the population who are affiliated with a religious congregation. The remaining 46% of the population are not. So taken together, those percentages comprise only 8.5% of the total population, which I think might reasonably be characterized as a "handful." But thirdly, it wasn't "my" assertion in the first place. It came from your source (here). K. Mea culpa. I did miss the part about the data set being only those affiliated with a religious congregation. That said, the fact that 46 percent of the population isn't even affiliated with a congregation would seem to suggest that the number of non-Christians is even larger, not smaller, than I'd written. As used in the Post article I cited, the "handful of non-Christians" phrasing referred to those who gave invocations, not the whole population. The statement that there were only a handful in the town was yours, in Post 98.

dcnovice -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/8/2014 9:53:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: government must permit a prayer giver to address his or her own God or gods as conscience dictates, unfettered by what an administrator or judge considers to be nonsectarian. ~Justice Kennedy Suppose one's conscience directs him or her to dig up this gem from the old Good Friday liturgy? Let us pray also for the faithless Jews {perfidis Judaeis}: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness {Judaicam perfidiam}: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen. The Good Friday liturgy still includes prayers for the conversion of the Jews, but they're not quite this harsh. Can you read, or are you just in a cranky mood tonight? Kennedy went on to stress that such invocations were not without constraint. Public prayers must be “solemn and respectful in tone” and aimed at inviting lawmakers to “reflect on shared ideals and common ends.” He warned that prayers might cross a constitutional line if the invocations “denigrate nonbelievers or religious minorities, threaten damnation, or preach conversion.” ~Source (previously cited) K. The two Kennedy quotes, both no doubt well-intentioned, seem to be at odds. How can there be "constraints" on an "unfettered" right of religious expression/prayer? And who determines whether an individual prayer violates those boundaries? Do they do so by reviewing it beforehand? Wouldn't that turn officials into the very "supervisors and censors of religious speech" that Kennedy said they shouldn't have to be? I used the example of the Good Friday prayer precisely because it's not a one-off from an overenthusiastic preacher but a staple of a liturgy used for centuries by the majority religion (Catholicism) in the town.

Zonie63 -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/8/2014 10:16:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 OH that's right, there is always that, that Christians are feeble minded stopid sheep. I didn't say all of them, but I can't see how you can deny that some of them are.

chatterbox24 -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/8/2014 10:40:34 AM)
Your right I cant deny it. It is truth. Most people at one time or another have been taken advantage of or misdirected without religion being part of it at all too. I was just being my sarcastic self, I lapsed into stupor but Im back now....maybe[:D]

DomKen -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/8/2014 11:57:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 Casting a spell?[8\|] OH no you found out the secret, we are all witch doctors, with tiny voo doo dolls in our back pocket, You are silly. SILLY. Maybe not as silly as me, but silly. I feel like the teacher on Charlie Brown....wah wah wah wha wha.....ha... I am going to go talk to a brick wall now or a glass, or the dog or cat.[:D] What else do you call praying to make other people wise?

chatterbox24 -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/8/2014 1:01:19 PM)
In some peoples cases it's a lot like an elephant trying to have relations with horse, the equipment is there but it isn't gonna sink in. That's all I got. quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 Casting a spell?[8\|] OH no you found out the secret, we are all witch doctors, with tiny voo doo dolls in our back pocket, You are silly. SILLY. Maybe not as silly as me, but silly. I feel like the teacher on Charlie Brown....wah wah wah wha wha.....ha... I am going to go talk to a brick wall now or a glass, or the dog or cat.[:D] What else do you call praying to make other people wise?

Kirata -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/8/2014 1:04:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen What they should have done is not lied. The depositions made it clear they were inviting the clergy they knew. It was only when the lawsuit was threatened that they started going to the phone book and claiming to find nothing but Christian churches. Turned out the Buddhist temple in town doesn't have a phone and the synagogues are across the street in Rochester. However that doesn't change the fact that having a city council open it's business with a sectarian Christian prayer every month for years is a violation of the establishment clause no matter what the 5 nitwit conservatives on SCOTUS claim. You mean the "nitwit conservatives" who agreed with the Obama administration's brief? That must really put a crimp in your tingle! The lawsuit, "alleged that the Town intentionally excluded non-Christians from offering prayers at board meetings and that the Town impermissibly allowed sectarian prayers by members of Christian and non-Christian faiths" (Cornell). Galloway further argued that the effect is coercive and promotional of Christianity whether or not that was the motive, and that allowing explicitly sectarian prayers of any kind constitutes a prohibited mingling of church and state. The first argument embodies the same cart before the horse logic that construes "disparate impact" to be de facto racism, even absent anything racially discriminatory in the standards, and the second invents a Constitution that doesn't exist. One of the first things Congress did in 1789 was to appoint the Chaplains of the House and the Senate. K.

DomKen -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/8/2014 2:15:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen What they should have done is not lied. The depositions made it clear they were inviting the clergy they knew. It was only when the lawsuit was threatened that they started going to the phone book and claiming to find nothing but Christian churches. Turned out the Buddhist temple in town doesn't have a phone and the synagogues are across the street in Rochester. However that doesn't change the fact that having a city council open it's business with a sectarian Christian prayer every month for years is a violation of the establishment clause no matter what the 5 nitwit conservatives on SCOTUS claim. You mean the "nitwit conservatives" who agreed with the Obama administration's brief? That must really put a crimp in your tingle! Why? As to the rest, blather on liar.

farglebargle -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/8/2014 4:24:13 PM)
Consider this. There is not a single Christian prayer that is not anti-semetic.

Phydeaux -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/8/2014 5:12:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 Casting a spell?[8\|] OH no you found out the secret, we are all witch doctors, with tiny voo doo dolls in our back pocket, You are silly. SILLY. Maybe not as silly as me, but silly. I feel like the teacher on Charlie Brown....wah wah wah wha wha.....ha... I am going to go talk to a brick wall now or a glass, or the dog or cat.[:D] What else do you call praying to make other people wise? A good idea. Sadly, the lord in his wisdom says "no" sometimes.

Phydeaux -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/8/2014 5:13:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Consider this. There is not a single Christian prayer that is not anti-semetic. Consider this: We have one militant anti christian Jew. Or former Jew.

Kirata -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/9/2014 12:12:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen So you think a holy man casting a spell before a meeting will make the city council wiser. Really? I'm sorry but I find advertising for the sect a lot easier to buy. A holy man casting a spell? Heh. I don't know much about spells, but unless you want to take credit for doing it to yourself, something is making you post some really stupid shit. K.

DomKen -> RE: You can now violate someone else's religion with prayer! (5/9/2014 2:52:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen So you think a holy man casting a spell before a meeting will make the city council wiser. Really? I'm sorry but I find advertising for the sect a lot easier to buy. A holy man casting a spell? Heh. I don't know much about spells, but unless you want to take credit for doing it to yourself, something is making you post some really stupid shit. Then what is a prayer to make other people wise? It certainly sounds like an attempt to invoke supernatural effects to achieve a specific outcome which is a spell.

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