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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 10:51:37 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

I'm almost certain that the dead boy's parent's will have taught him that it is wrong to steal, but young people do some pretty fucking stupid things sometimes.

I'm not really sure that they should be executed without any kind of trial or hearing when they do though.

But hey.




Death is the risk you take, when you enter an American home for criminal purposes. Fact of business.

Agreed that the kid was pretty fucking stupid. Wyoming has a cowboy on their license plates, ffs.



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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/8/2014 11:05:27 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

I'm almost certain that the dead boy's parent's will have taught him that it is wrong to steal, but young people do some pretty fucking stupid things sometimes.

I'm not really sure that they should be executed without any kind of trial or hearing when they do though.

But hey.




Death is the risk you take, when you enter an American home for criminal purposes. Fact of business.


Yep, you have me there. Setting aside any "right or wrong" / "better or worse" discussions, it should be pretty well understood that if you break into someone's property in the USA there's a pretty fair chance of death.

quote:






Agreed that the kid was pretty fucking stupid. Wyoming has a cowboy on their license plates, ffs.




Oh shit! I missed the fact that this took place in Wyoming!

That changes everything!

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/9/2014 12:17:31 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazymlI'm
almost certain that the dead boy's parent's will have taught him that it is wrong to steal, but young people do some pretty fucking stupid things sometimes.

I'm not really sure that they should be executed without any kind of trial or hearing when they do though.

But hey.

Death is the risk you take, when you enter an American home for criminal purposes. Fact of business.


1. The kid didn't break in. Breaking in implies breaching a portal of some type (i.e. window or door).
2. If the guy was so worried about a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood, why was the garage door left partially open?
3. The kid never entered the home. Unless the garage is directly part of the house (i.e. living quarters above it) its not a home; its place you put your stuff.
4. Did the guy with the gun make any attempt to call out the intruder before shooting? no.
5. Did the guy with the gun make any attempt to identify the intruder? no.
6. Did the guy call the police before firing? no.
7. Did this happen in a sane state? no.
8. Most garages contain containers that, when hit by high speed objects...blow up...and could set off a domino effect. Yeah, the guy gets the intruder, but his house burns down after the explosions...

A 'shoot first, ask questions later' type of paranoid person with a firearm. Yeah, that was a tragedy waiting to happen....

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
Yep, you have me there. Setting aside any "right or wrong" / "better or worse" discussions, it should be pretty well understood that if you break into someone's property in the USA there's a pretty fair chance of death.


Your going to kill someone over a bottle of beer?



< Message edited by joether -- 5/9/2014 1:11:08 AM >

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/9/2014 12:44:00 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

Sadist Dave
Bullshit.

I think you'll find that the vast majority of homeowners have a pretty good idea of who and what should be in their garages. Just about everyone I know can give extremely detailed instructions on where most things in their garage are. Furthemore shooting into a garage is pretty safe for your neighbors. The odds of collateral damage to innocent people is pretty well minimalized when you shoot into an enclosed space. Shooting out of a garage on the other hand would be irresponsible.

-SD

How many times have we heard from our resident self appointed gun experts that one of the most basic safety rules is that one never opens fire 'blind' ie without knowing exactly what is in the line of fire.

Yet here we have these same self appointed experts defending this particular trigger happy petrified moron opening fire into a dark garage with perhaps no more than the vaguest of ideas who or what might be in the line of fire. He blasted away with his shotgun first, leaving any questions to be asked later if indeed they were to be asked at all.

It seems that, according to our 'experts', the safety rules change according to the circumstances. The only constant appears to be that the shooter* is always in the right, completely in the right, whatever the circumstances. But who am I to query such well credentialled self appointed 'experts'?

* it almost goes without saying that the shooter is a white, preferably male middle class property owner. Naturally these rules do not apply to blacks or other minorities.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/9/2014 12:53:22 AM >

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/9/2014 12:44:49 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Awww. That's cute, Joether.

I'm not arguing for the shooter. I'm simply discussing the incident in a reality based way the Eurotrash can't seem to wrap their wee minds around. I'll retype it for you. Read slowly.

Entering - an - American - home - for - criminal - purposes - is - a - damn - good - way - to - get - yourself - killed. Fact - of - business.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 5/9/2014 12:45:16 AM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/9/2014 12:56:35 AM   
Dvr22999874


Posts: 2849
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline 		would the same rules apply to a white guy walking into a black guys garage for similar reasons ? The black guy would be all in the right and the white guy would be an idiot who was in dire need of killing ? With FOUR shots from a shotgun no less ???? Where did that fool think he was On point in the jungle ?................yeah, I guess so. It IS a jungle out there.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/9/2014 12:57:38 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Awww. That's cute, Joether.

I'm not arguing for the shooter. I'm simply discussing the incident in a reality based way the Eurotrash can't seem to wrap their wee minds around. I'll retype it for you. Read slowly.

Entering - an - American - home - for - criminal - purposes - is - a - damn - good - way - to - get - yourself - killed. Fact - of - business.


The kid did....NOT...enter the home. He entered the garage. That's pretty clear from the article if you had actually taken some time to read it. He did not break in, the door was open. It was a foolish prank, but not one punishable by death. If we punished everyone for foolish pranks, the grand majority of Republicans and all the Tea Party would be dead right now!

Recall that thread on that guy that killed some poor old man in the dead of night, without identifying the guy? Or the Dunn character that shoot up a car full of teenagers because he thought one of them had a gun because they were black? How about that Zimmerman guy that stalked after some kid after the police told him not to. In each example there are two things present: A ) The person had a gun without a clue and B ) they wanted to be the hero; but ended as a thug with a gun.

But thanks to changes in laws across the country by the NRA, a US Supreme Court doing an 'end run around' the 2nd amendment, conservative media spewing misinformation 24/7, conservatives throwing around wild conspiracy theories like rice at a wedding; would any of us be surprised to find so many paranoid schizophrenic types with firearms in America?

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/9/2014 1:07:54 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		Would you be kind enough to point out where I implied that I would shoot someone over a bottle of beer?

I've obviously failed in communicating and would love to learn from this, because I really did think that I had commented with enough clarity that only someone very very stupid could draw a conclusion such as yours.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/9/2014 1:26:23 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

it almost goes without saying that the shooter is a white, preferably male middle class property owner. Naturally these rules do not apply to blacks or other minorities.

I don't know if you check under your bed at night to make sure there's nobody there whose brain might be obsessed with fevered racial preoccupations, but if you do I think you're checking the wrong part of the bed.

K.


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/9/2014 1:28:26 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Would you be kind enough to point out where I implied that I would shoot someone over a bottle of beer?

I've obviously failed in communicating and would love to learn from this, because I really did think that I had commented with enough clarity that only someone very very stupid could draw a conclusion such as yours.


Its an open question.

The whole point of this thread is some idiot with a firearm, shot some kid to death without identify who or what he was up against at night. Just started firing into a dark garage without an ounce of consideration. Did the kid break into the house? No. Was he directly threatening anyone in the house itself? No. Did the guy call the police before engaging? No.

Yeah, that gun folks can afford shotguns but not flashlights, right? They can afford ammo but not batteries? Since working flashlights with batteries are used more often around the house then a shotgun with ammo.

The gun owner wanted to be a hero; and came out the villain. Yes, the kid was foolish; but the gun owner was more so.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/9/2014 1:35:46 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

The kid did....NOT...enter the home. He entered the garage. That's pretty clear from the article if you had actually taken some time to read it. He did not break in, the door was open. It was a foolish prank, but not one punishable by death.

It was an attached garage, part of the home. The door was only partially open for ventilation. Entering someone's dwelling or any attached part thereof with criminal intent is not a "prank". And whether or not the victim "deserved" to die is irrelevant. What would it change if he did?

K.


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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/9/2014 1:54:01 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
The kid did....NOT...enter the home. He entered the garage. That's pretty clear from the article if you had actually taken some time to read it. He did not break in, the door was open. It was a foolish prank, but not one punishable by death.

It was an attached garage, part of the home. The door was only partially open for ventilation. Entering someone's dwelling or any attached part thereof with criminal intent is not a "prank". And whether or not the victim "deserved" to die is irrelevant. What would it change if he did?


Where do you live: A ) In your home, or B ) Your attached garage?

Go right ahead and bullshit that one. The only way your 'argument' works, is for people to live in their attached garages on a normal basis, and not in the living quarters. There is a reason why they call it 'living quarters'.

The guy was so paranoid of burglaries in the area, that he installs motion detection devices....BUT....leaves his door open wide enough for a human to gain access to the structure. There's the 'Bonehead of the Year' award right there! if one was THAT AFRAID, they would make sure their house was....SECURED...at night. That implies all the doors are shut and locked; not left partially open.

And the guy wants himself and his family to be safe from danger that he has a firearm but not a working flashlight?

No one here disagrees that the kid made a foolish mistake. What is in disagreement is whether the firearm owner was foolish as well.

Whether or not the firearm owner sees jail time is for the court and law to decide. He'll live with the knowledge that he killed an unarmed teenager over a bottle of beer. A punishment all in itself.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/9/2014 2:00:43 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

The whole point of this thread is some idiot with a firearm, shot some kid to death without identify who or what he was up against at night.

You're just making shit up. He knew by observation that he was up against someone who had illegally and surreptitiously slipped under his partially open garage door and was heading for the entry into the home's living quarters where his wife and 10-month old child were. And as shameful as it may be in your view, he elected not to risk leaving his wife a widow and his child fatherless by confronting a potentially armed intruder in the dark to inquire if perhaps the fellow only just needed change for a dollar.

K.


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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/9/2014 2:02:35 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

The guy was so paranoid of....

You are in no position to be tossing the word "paranoid" around.

K.


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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/9/2014 2:54:32 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

it almost goes without saying that the shooter is a white, preferably male middle class property owner. Naturally these rules do not apply to blacks or other minorities.

I don't know if you check under your bed at night to make sure there's nobody there whose brain might be obsessed with fevered racial preoccupations, but if you do I think you're checking the wrong part of the bed.

K.



Please rest assured that I don't have any of the personal safety concerns that seem to preoccupy so many of the minds of right wing gun owners posting here. Nor do I suffer from the rampant paranoia that infects their posts and minds. Nor do most Australians share these feelings, as far as I can tell. It scares me to think that some of the aggressive gun owners posting here are licensed to own and/or carry weapons. To me, they're far more dangerous than any thief as incompetent as the one in the OP appears (or appeared, past tense) to be.

It's instructive to note the difference between the way these issues are approached here and in the US. We have an ongoing discussion here about street violence. That discussion is focussed on reducing alcohol consumption by people under 25, especially males. If these boards are anything to go by, the discussion in the US is centred around gun 'rights' and "how I will blow away the bad guy if and when I get the chance'. I get the impression that some of those who proclaim the virtues of concealed carry can't wait for the chance to use the weapons they value so highly.

Here, someone who behaved in the manner of the idiot shooter in the OP would be facing serious charges, manslaughter at a minimum, probably murder. Why the cretin didn't turn the light on, and hold the thieves at bay until the police arrived is one question I would like to see answered. My guess is that most people here would have no sympathy for anyone who values the contents of their garage more than human life.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/9/2014 3:04:09 AM >

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/9/2014 3:35:06 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

Peon.. here in the USA, by the time young people reach the age of 23, 30% have already been convicted of a crime.. They take their law & order very seriously here.. I find that a startling stat, since once young people have that criminal record due to being a dumb kid or doing drugs, it means they are shut out in many respects of society and most likely will be doomed to low income jobs the rest of their lives.. What exactly does that mean for this country's economic health in the decades ahead?


What? Really? That is indeed a startling statistic.

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/9/2014 3:37:19 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Yes he could have. But shooting into a dark garage is irresponsible no matter how you spin it and I hope they lock him up.


Bullshit.

I think you'll find that the vast majority of homeowners have a pretty good idea of who and what should be in their garages. Just about everyone I know can give extremely detailed instructions on where most things in their garage are. Furthemore shooting into a garage is pretty safe for your neighbors. The odds of collateral damage to innocent people is pretty well minimalized when you shoot into an enclosed space. Shooting out of a garage on the other hand would be irresponsible.

-SD-


I really don't care about the layout of the garage. It's irresponsible to shoot into a dark garage if you have no clue who is in there. And from what I have read, he didn't. Now according to the article he did know he had been broken into 2 times before this and yet he still left his garage door partially open. If he was so worried about it happening again, why didn't he make sure it was shut before turning in for the night?

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/9/2014 3:49:14 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

* it almost goes without saying that the shooter is a white, preferably male middle class property owner. Naturally these rules do not apply to blacks or other minorities.



If you are the type of person to ignore facts and make snap decisions based on your own skewed view of the world, then yes it goes with out saying. If you are the type to wait until the facts come out, it doesn't.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/9/2014 4:17:00 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

here in the USA, by the time young people reach the age of 23, 30% have already been convicted of a crime.

What? Really? That is indeed a startling statistic.

I'd like to see the source for that one. The only information I have readily at my fingertips is out of date, but a 1991 Bureau of Justice Statistics report finds the lifetime probability of incarceration to be 4.4% for whites, 16.0% for Hispanics, and 28.5% for blacks.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/9/2014 4:23:14 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/9/2014 5:06:16 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

here in the USA, by the time young people reach the age of 23, 30% have already been convicted of a crime.

What? Really? That is indeed a startling statistic.

I'd like to see the source for that one. The only information I have readily at my fingertips is out of date, but a 1991 Bureau of Justice Statistics report finds the lifetime probability of incarceration to be 4.4% for whites, 16.0% for Hispanics, and 28.5% for blacks.

K.

tj444 talked about convictions rather than incarceration, K. Presumably only a percentage of people get put behind bars as a result of their convictions, as is the case this side of the pond too. But even so, that's still a surprising figure.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 5/9/2014 5:07:49 AM >

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