RE: Hate speech or free speech or both? (Full Version)

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DesideriScuri -> RE: Hate speech or free speech or both? (5/17/2014 4:29:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Laughable stuff DS......... Do you feel all the racist, homophobic and islamophobic speech would just end if no one reacted. No, I thought not. [8|]


Where did I say it would end? Reacting with hate doesn't help end it, either. Greta demonstrated that not reacting has helped her change minds, reducing the bigotry.




thishereboi -> RE: Hate speech or free speech or both? (5/17/2014 5:32:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Laughable stuff DS......... Do you feel all the racist, homophobic and islamophobic speech would just end if no one reacted. No, I thought not. [8|]


Where did I say it would end? Reacting with hate doesn't help end it, either. Greta demonstrated that not reacting has helped her change minds, reducing the bigotry.



Well apparently as a white male he feels he is in a better position to decide how someone should react to a racist than an asian women.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Hate speech or free speech or both? (5/17/2014 5:35:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Does this police commissioner have a duty to avoid expressing his racial epithets in public? Should he have to resign as some townspeople wish? Isn't he protected by the First Amendment as an elected official? Or does he have a greater duty to racial equality and equal justice as a law man?

WOLFEBORO, N.H. (AP) — A police commissioner in a predominantly white New Hampshire town says he won't apologize for calling President Barack Obama the N-word, and he sat with his arms crossed while angry residents at a meeting called for his resignation on Thursday.

Wolfeboro Police Commissioner Robert Copeland, who's 82 and white, has acknowledged in an email to his fellow police commissioners he used the racial slur in describing Obama.

Town resident Jane O'Toole, who moved to Wolfeboro four months ago, said she overheard Copeland say the slur at a restaurant in March and wrote to the town manager about it. Copeland, in an email to her, acknowledged using the slur in referring to the president and said he will not apologize.

"I believe I did use the 'N' word in reference to the current occupant of the Whitehouse," Copeland said in the email to his fellow police commissioners, part of which he forwarded to O'Toole. "For this, I do not apologize — he meets and exceeds my criteria for such."


SOURCE


Free speech is still protected.

(And he's still a dickhead fuckbrain).




DesideriScuri -> RE: Hate speech or free speech or both? (5/17/2014 5:38:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
Free speech is still protected.
(And he's still a dickhead fuckbrain).


Yup. And, Yup.




Politesub53 -> RE: Hate speech or free speech or both? (5/18/2014 3:45:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Well apparently as a white male he feels he is in a better position to decide how someone should react to a racist than an asian women.


I noted you said you smoked a lot of pot, which explains much.

But lets get back to your point, do you feel that as a white female you are unable to speak out on anything unless its within the confines of your own small world. I grew up and lived in inner London in the 50s right through until recently. Brixton was multi ethnic then and it is multi ethnic now, but let me assure you, laws on hate speech, added to the community as a whole not standing for it do make a difference. As does going to counter demonstarte against the NF and BNP. Do you think that as a white male I should stand by and watch a black mate get abused due to his colour, just stick my head in the sand, or in your case stick your head up your arse and look the other way. Not me babe, I speak out. Hatred is hatred and it needs to be stopped.








chatterbox24 -> RE: Hate speech or free speech or both? (5/18/2014 4:10:25 AM)

I disagree. The way Greta handled it is a position of strength and great control. No exchange or reaction or one not to be expected. My very first instinctive reaction would be to pop him in his stupid mouth and let him enjoy the taste of his words. But Greta's reaction would now be my reaction to such a blatant bigoted unjustified action toward someone you dont even know as a person.h
so right on Greta girl!
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Laughable stuff DS......... Do you feel all the racist, homophobic and islamophobic speech would just end if no one reacted. No, I thought not. [8|]


Where did I say it would end? Reacting with hate doesn't help end it, either. Greta demonstrated that not reacting has helped her change minds, reducing the bigotry.



Well apparently as a white male he feels he is in a better position to decide how someone should react to a racist than an asian women.





egern -> RE: Hate speech or free speech or both? (5/18/2014 7:21:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Does this police commissioner have a duty to avoid expressing his racial epithets in public? Should he have to resign as some townspeople wish? Isn't he protected by the First Amendment as an elected official? Or does he have a greater duty to racial equality and equal justice as a law man?

WOLFEBORO, N.H. (AP) — A police commissioner in a predominantly white New Hampshire town says he won't apologize for calling President Barack Obama the N-word, and he sat with his arms crossed while angry residents at a meeting called for his resignation on Thursday.

Wolfeboro Police Commissioner Robert Copeland, who's 82 and white, has acknowledged in an email to his fellow police commissioners he used the racial slur in describing Obama.

Town resident Jane O'Toole, who moved to Wolfeboro four months ago, said she overheard Copeland say the slur at a restaurant in March and wrote to the town manager about it. Copeland, in an email to her, acknowledged using the slur in referring to the president and said he will not apologize.

"I believe I did use the 'N' word in reference to the current occupant of the Whitehouse," Copeland said in the email to his fellow police commissioners, part of which he forwarded to O'Toole. "For this, I do not apologize — he meets and exceeds my criteria for such."


SOURCE



Free speech is for individuals speaking for themselves as private persons. If you speak in any official capacity you cannot talk like that. Goes for any official.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Hate speech or free speech or both? (5/18/2014 7:36:47 AM)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/NIGGER


nigger
nig·ger
[nig-er] Show IPA
Usage note
The term nigger is now probably the most offensive word in English. Its degree of offensiveness has increased markedly in recent years, although it has been used in a derogatory manner since at least the Revolutionary War. The senses labeled Extremely Disparaging and Offensive represent meanings that are deeply insulting and are used when the speaker deliberately wishes to cause great offense. It is so profoundly offensive that a euphemism has developed for those occasions when the word itself must be discussed, as in court or in a newspaper editorial: “the n-word.”
Despite this, the sense referring to a “black person” is sometimes used among African Americans in a neutral or familiar way. The sense referring to other victims of prejudice, especially when used descriptively, as to denounce that prejudice, is not normally considered disparaging—as in “The Irish are the niggers of Europe” from Roddy Doyle's The Commitments —but the other uses are considered contemptuous and hostile.

noun
1.
Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive.
a.
a black person.
b.
a member of any dark-skinned people.
2.
Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive. a person of any race or origin regarded as contemptible, inferior, ignorant, etc.
3.
a victim of prejudice similar to that suffered by blacks; a person who is economically, politically, or socially disenfranchised.
Origin:
1640–50; < French nègre < Spanish negro black

So, definitions 1 a & b are definitely hateful, definitions 2 and 3 could or could not be. We are assuming that he meant one of the hateful ones, when he may just think that Obama is, in fact, contemptible as hell and, being an 80 yo man, that is how he has expressed that for his lifetime.

Does that make him right? No. Does that mean he is a racist? Maybe. Does that mean he is a horrid person? Who knows.

This word, which I do not use any more, because it is thought of as so horrid by so many people, is not used by everyone in the same way. When I used it, before I became the enlightened, kinder gentler asshole that I am today, I used it equally for white and black folks, definition #2 I guess.

Anyhoo, interesting discussion, interesting thoughts, whether I agree or disagree with them.




Zonie63 -> RE: Hate speech or free speech or both? (5/18/2014 7:46:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I was referring to her casual dismissal of the impact of the N-word; not to her personal strategies. This thread was not about her personal strategies. Furthermore, I strongly disagree with your last comment. That is not how hate is being reduced in this country. The historical effort has been massive and continues today fifty years after the passage of the Civil Rights Law. So, no. I don't buy your trickle up theory. I hope I haven't misread you.


You know what empowers people to offend you with words? Your reacting with outrage at their words. By reacting the way Greta reacts, you take that power away from others. It might cause a visceral response, but you still have the ability to choose exactly how you react.

You don't reduce hate by continually bringing up the past abuses every time they come up. It's good to not forget the past, but, at some point, the hate cycle has to be broken. You aren't going to stop people from thinking stupid things. You aren't going to be able to stop people from saying all the stupid shit they think. Not reacting back with hate helps to break that cycle.


This might be a good strategy for "street-level" racism which one might encounter, but I would say that each situation is as different as each individual. Therefore, any possible response appropriate to the level of offense may also have to be tailored to the situation. I don't think there's any "one size fits all" response, since we're talking about different cans of worms, depending on the race, country, and its history.

The outrage is not over "words." I would suggest that if there was no history of racism, slavery, abuse, murder, etc. to contend with, then probably nobody would give a shit about racial slurs or epithets - or at least, not that much. It might be the equivalent of Politesub53 calling me a "bloody Yank," which would not upset me or fill me with outrage.

There might be some differences with Greta's situation, since she lives in Singapore where she is part of the majority race which also rules the country (a completely different situation from what blacks in the U.S. have to contend with). However, in a previous conversation with her, she mentioned that there was anti-Chinese discrimination which is officially sanctioned in Malaysia, so that might be something which is of a more immediate concern and something to get outraged about.

There might also be another key difference in that, while there was certainly a history of racism and European colonialism in Asia, the Asians still living there mostly retained their language, names, cultures, and sense of identity. They're independent and sovereign now, and it's not very likely that they'll fall under European colonial rule anytime soon. These countries are strong enough and self-aware enough that they're not likely to put up with any more shit from the West. If Westerners want to call them names, why should they give a shit? They were there before Westerners arrived, and they're still there now.

In the U.S., it was a completely different kettle of fish. Without going into the long and bloody history which you probably already know, different situations may entail different reactions. People who were forcibly taken from their homeland, not allowed to retain their family name, their language, culture - and stripped of all sense of identity and self. Their identity was reduced to that of their skin color and summed up with a single word, a few phonemes strung together. I don't think people are necessarily reacting to the word itself, since even that can be circumstantial in most street-level situations. If a drunken, scraggly old homeless guy yells out a racial slur, that would be received far differently than if it was a public official or someone at a high level in society.




vincentML -> RE: Hate speech or free speech or both? (5/18/2014 1:32:55 PM)

quote:

In the U.S., it was a completely different kettle of fish. Without going into the long and bloody history which you probably already know, different situations may entail different reactions. People who were forcibly taken from their homeland, not allowed to retain their family name, their language, culture - and stripped of all sense of identity and self. Their identity was reduced to that of their skin color and summed up with a single word, a few phonemes strung together. I don't think people are necessarily reacting to the word itself, since even that can be circumstantial in most street-level situations. If a drunken, scraggly old homeless guy yells out a racial slur, that would be received far differently than if it was a public official or someone at a high level in society.


Well said, Zonie. The word is dripping with blood and with images of black men hanging from tree limbs with a rope around their necks and that word printed on their chests.

And the oppression continues today with schools more segregated than ever, especially in the Northeast and Midwest, with black urban schools receiving $700+ less per pupil, with the lack of jobs, and residential segregation. These are very difficult problems yet to be solved.




thishereboi -> RE: Hate speech or free speech or both? (5/18/2014 3:01:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Well apparently as a white male he feels he is in a better position to decide how someone should react to a racist than an asian women.


I noted you said you smoked a lot of pot, which explains much.

But lets get back to your point, do you feel that as a white female you are unable to speak out on anything unless its within the confines of your own small world.


No, I don't but I also don't think I have the right to berate someone else because they didn't react in the what I consider the correct manner.




Politesub53 -> RE: Hate speech or free speech or both? (5/18/2014 4:26:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Well apparently as a white male he feels he is in a better position to decide how someone should react to a racist than an asian women.


I noted you said you smoked a lot of pot, which explains much.

But lets get back to your point, do you feel that as a white female you are unable to speak out on anything unless its within the confines of your own small world.


No, I don't but I also don't think I have the right to berate someone else because they didn't react in the what I consider the correct manner.


Fucking laughable, considering you feel you have the right to berate me for not acting in what you consider the correct manner.

Me, I will get by living as I do, and keep on calling people on racist shit as and when I see it.




Zonie63 -> RE: Hate speech or free speech or both? (5/19/2014 12:45:00 PM)

I just noticed that the police commissioner in question has resigned: http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2014/05/19/us/19reuters-usa-new-hampshire-police-obama.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=0




Politesub53 -> RE: Hate speech or free speech or both? (5/19/2014 3:36:37 PM)

Rightly so Zonie. You cant uphold the law unless you treat all citizens as equal.

Thanks for the update.




joether -> RE: Hate speech or free speech or both? (5/20/2014 10:55:52 AM)

In New England, if a public official speaks or does something offensive, the public will chew him or her out pretty well. For those positions that are not elected, the public goes to the elected officials responsible for them. Such fury is not often taken lightly by such elected officials. If the elected officials do nothing about it, its a good bet people will run for those positions with the express desire to fire the offending official.

That old guy doesn't care, but the town should.





DesideriScuri -> RE: Hate speech or free speech or both? (5/20/2014 2:36:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
In New England, if a public official speaks or does something offensive, the public will chew him or her out pretty well. For those positions that are not elected, the public goes to the elected officials responsible for them. Such fury is not often taken lightly by such elected officials. If the elected officials do nothing about it, its a good bet people will run for those positions with the express desire to fire the offending official.
That old guy doesn't care, but the town should.


IMO, this is how it should be. And, I'm happy he said what he said. No hiding from it. Everyone knows who and what he is, and they can take the actions they see fit.




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