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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/27/2014 7:17:09 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Watch that backpedal go.



Sorry, Ken. I understand that waiting for me to get home from work has been the focus of your day, but you'll just have to be patient.

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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/27/2014 7:37:56 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


Some time ago, I was chided by a poster for suggesting that a thread was headed for a treatise on "Thought Control".

It turned out that I was correct. That poster apologized to me later in thread.

I found an article in my yahoo feed, today that echoes what I have been saying about "Thought Crimes" for some time; particularly:

quote:



What comes to mind when I think of the genesis for this growing trend of government to control Americans’ speech, and by extension, thoughts, is when the notion of hate crime was brought into our criminal prosecution system — as if acts of violence that are committed because of racial divides deserve a different category of ‘extra-special bad








Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?

But historically they have been a category of 'extra-special bad.' How can we ignore all the crimes committed against blacks and gays? America's history of these grotesque acts cries out for a special category.



It cries out for no such thing. What it wants is justice. Not "special justice". Try and give people that and you have already lost. A crime is a crime. Period.

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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/27/2014 8:30:47 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Watch that backpedal go.



Sorry, Ken. I understand that waiting for me to get home from work has been the focus of your day, but you'll just have to be patient.

Nope. I'm just laughing at you now that you tried to get out of the mess you ran into.

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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/27/2014 8:58:05 PM   
TheHeretic


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No, DC, I'm not telling you what you shouldn't say. Let's go with, not the topic that interested me over my coffee.

My take on the op-ed (and I'm familiar with the Washington Times) was that they plucked some low-hanging fruit lines from the First Lady's speech, and used that to get into a subject where I have some pretty strong opinions. Declarations from on high about what it is, and isn't, acceptable to think.

I suppose others could find something else to see in it. Hell, I could see a pretty good tangent on what happens when some dumbass kid decides to start shit with Grandpa at the Thanksgiving table.

But hey, let's talk about assigning a criminal case sentencing enhancements, based on the unpopular personal beliefs of the defendant. They have committed a crime by their thoughts. Orwell nailed the language of totalitarianism. Thoughtcrime.

I expect some poster/s couldn't get past the name of the source when they jumped in to reply, but the headline was a question - "Is America starting to target thought crime?" Of course, George Orwell scared the crap out of me at a tender young age, so my answer to that question is always going to be "starting???"

I'm a militant when it comes to free speech, DC, because once we start criminalizing beliefs, there's no traction on the slope. That means I wind up defending the right of people to say some pretty awful things. I also support putting free speech to creative use in saying better things right back to them (but I'm 47, and I still would know better than to start shit with Grandpa at Mom's Thanksgiving dinnertable).

She told them go forth and spread political correctness, DC; to make sure that their elders think right. I see the connection.



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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/27/2014 8:59:41 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Nope. I'm just laughing at you now that you tried to get out of the mess you ran into.



Jesus, man, get a life. Watch Fargo or something.

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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/27/2014 9:36:45 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Nope. I'm just laughing at you now that you tried to get out of the mess you ran into.



Jesus, man, get a life. Watch Fargo or something.

You sure were at lot more confident there was something there this morning. Now you're running away very fast. I'm just laughing at your expense. I warned you there was nothing there and you chose to attack me. So you have it coming.

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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/27/2014 10:34:59 PM   
TheHeretic


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You're silly, Ken, but not worth staying up for. I'll hold out for DC swinging back through. Have a nice night.




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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/28/2014 3:45:37 AM   
tweakabelle


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Here's an example of hate speech, not directed against blacks but against women. The author is Paul Elam, whom I am told, is one of the leading 'intellectual' lights of the Men's Rights Movement in the US:
"I have ideas about women who spend evenings in bars hustling men for drinks, playing on their sexual desires … And the women who drink and make out, doing everything short of sex with men all evening, and then go to his apartment at 2:00 a.m.. Sometimes both of these women end up being the “victims” of rape.
But are these women asking to get raped?
In the most severe and emphatic terms possible the answer is NO, THEY ARE NOT ASKING TO GET RAPED.
They are freaking begging for it.
Damn near demanding it.
And all the outraged PC demands to get huffy and point out how nothing justifies or excuses rape won’t change the fact that there are a lot of women who get pummeled and pumped because they are stupid (and often arrogant) enough to walk though life with the equivalent of a I’M A STUPID, CONNIVING BITCH – PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads
."
http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2013/10/18/paul-elam-of-a-voice-for-men-in-his-own-words/ (emphasis in the original, not added by me)

Disturbing stuff by any standard. One ought to bear in mind that the audience Mr Elam in writing for - angry embittered often very violent men who have serious issues with women in general and specifically with their ex-partners - contains many who have long records of violent crimes against women and children. These are the very last people one should be inciting to violence.

Here in Australia Mr Elam would almost certainly be prosecuted for inciting hate and violence against women in the quoted text. In the USA he hasn't been prosecuted for anything. From where I sit, the only possible grounds upon which one might defend Mr Elam's sentiments is that he is entitled to say whatever he wants as part of his right to freedom of speech. I would hope that no one posting here would agree with his sentiments though considering some of the views advanced by members of the looney Right in the past, this hope might be a victory of optimism over realism.

So, which approach is correct? Should Elam be prosecuted for inciting hate and violence? Or does his right to freedom of speech over-ride all other considerations?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/28/2014 3:59:54 AM >


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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/28/2014 6:11:02 AM   
thishereboi


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I don't believe in the attitude that free speach is ok as long as I agree with what they are saying. I think even the assholes have a right to speak their mind. In fact sometimes it helps to spot them quicker.

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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/28/2014 7:53:38 AM   
DaddySatyr


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From a link on the OP link:

quote:


The first lady spoke on Friday to graduating high school students in Topeka, Kansas, and in remarks released over the weekend, Obama said students need to police family and friends because federal laws can only go so far in stopping racism.


“Our laws may no longer separate us based on our skin color, but nothing in the Constitution says we have to eat together in the lunchroom, or live together in the same neighborhoods,” she said. “There’s no court case against believing in stereotypes or thinking that certain kinds of hateful jokes or comments are funny.”



So ... an exhortation for us to "police" each other? Weird. I thought that was the government's job (sort of). The use of the word kind of bothers me. "Police". Does that mean we arrest people? No. That would be silly. Do we accuse them, publicly or indict them? "Name and shame"?

Not only is the idea of setting neighbor upon neighbor Orwellian but it's been done outside of literature. In one instance, it made for a very ugly society that affected the world in horrid ways.

Is "dear leader's" wife calling for the beginning of the end of free speech/free association/free thought? While she has no power of her own, she has notoriety and a certain gravitas with people (especially in a society where celebrities are worshipped) and should be a bit more carefully at how she wields her influence.

She's either incredibly ignorant of the power of her words or incredibly hell-bent on an Orwellian nightmare society. Shame on her, either way.







Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?

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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/28/2014 7:59:57 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Now it was a very nice little speech, and I'm sure it will be a fond memory for all those high school graduates (at least the ones that don't get shot in the next few years),

How long till they bring back the draft?



but yeah, the First Lady was encouraging kids to jump in and tell their older family member what they should and shouldn't say.


Of course it is better that they not be allowed to speak?


There was also this fucking hilariously hypocritical quote:

Why is it hilariously hypocritical to point out bigotry in your zip code?

quote:

And that’s really my challenge to all of you today — when you encounter folks who still hold the old prejudices because they’ve only been around folks like themselves, when you meet folks who think they know all the answers because they’ve never heard any other viewpoints, it is up to you to help them see things differently.


Seriously? Did a liberal really say that? With a straight face?

Do you seriously believe that all conservatives are bigots?

But that isn't the topic here, nor is the blatantly dishonest call for "honest" conversation about racial issues.

Hate crime becomes thought crime.

Dick the dumb things you say...perhaps you should acquaint yourself with the crime called conspiracy? Those are thought crimes.



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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/28/2014 8:00:13 AM   
mnottertail


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I see the nutsackers are as slobberingly conspiratorial and imbecilic as they typically are.

the regulation and control of a community, especially for the maintenance of public order, safety, health, morals, etc.

is that the definition being used, additionally, there is the the concept of police up, which most nutsackers, being of such pathetic comprehension and language skills is another confusion to them.


Fucking waste of oxygen, this whole bit of asswipe.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 5/28/2014 8:42:05 AM >


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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/28/2014 8:36:30 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

So ... an exhortation for us to "police" each other? Weird. I thought that was the government's job (sort of). The use of the word kind of bothers me. "Police". Does that mean we arrest people? No. That would be silly. Do we accuse them, publicly or indict them? "Name and shame"?

The word "police" appears nowhere in Mrs. Obama's speech.

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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/28/2014 8:51:21 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Here in Australia Mr Elam would almost certainly be prosecuted for inciting hate and violence against women in the quoted text. In the USA he hasn't been prosecuted for anything. From where I sit, the only possible grounds upon which one might defend Mr Elam's sentiments is that he is entitled to say whatever he wants as part of his right to freedom of speech. I would hope that no one posting here would agree with his sentiments though considering some of the views advanced by members of the looney Right in the past, this hope might be a victory of optimism over realism.

So, which approach is correct? Should Elam be prosecuted for inciting hate and violence? Or does his right to freedom of speech over-ride all other considerations?


I've never heard of this guy before, nor have I ever read this particular blog. I never even heard of the "Manosphere" before.

I think this situation is a bit different than what is being addressed regarding hate crime legislation, since it ties in with an actual crime already on the books, with hate being the aggravating factor. As for prosecuting someone just for what they say, I think US courts tend to use the "clear and present danger" principle to determine that.

quote:

In 1969, the court established stronger protections for speech in the landmark case Brandenburg v. Ohio which held that "the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action".[31][32] Brandenburg is now the standard applied by the Court to free speech issues related to advocacy of violence.[33]



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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/28/2014 9:40:51 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Here in Australia Mr Elam would almost certainly be prosecuted for inciting hate and violence against women in the quoted text. In the USA he hasn't been prosecuted for anything. From where I sit, the only possible grounds upon which one might defend Mr Elam's sentiments is that he is entitled to say whatever he wants as part of his right to freedom of speech. I would hope that no one posting here would agree with his sentiments though considering some of the views advanced by members of the looney Right in the past, this hope might be a victory of optimism over realism.

So, which approach is correct? Should Elam be prosecuted for inciting hate and violence? Or does his right to freedom of speech over-ride all other considerations?


I've never heard of this guy before, nor have I ever read this particular blog. I never even heard of the "Manosphere" before.


Please accept my apologies for introducing Elam's particular brand of ugly hate into your life. I suspect most of us could live quite happily without ever encountering this psycho or his odious depravity.

Sadly the movement he is said to influence heavily - the (so-called) 'Men's Rights Movement' - is real and its adherents have been responsible for numerous acts of violence here in Australia and I believe in the USA too.

quote:

I think this situation is a bit different than what is being addressed regarding hate crime legislation, since it ties in with an actual crime already on the books, with hate being the aggravating factor. As for prosecuting someone just for what they say, I think US courts tend to use the "clear and present danger" principle to determine that.

quote:

In 1969, the court established stronger protections for speech in the landmark case Brandenburg v. Ohio which held that "the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action".[31][32] Brandenburg is now the standard applied by the Court to free speech issues related to advocacy of violence.[33]




I can understand the reluctance of any one to introduce any legislation that limits the right of free speech. I share that reluctance.

One problem with the principle enunciated ("clear and present danger") is that it can be circumvented with a little subtlety. Elam's hate will escape prosecution under this principle as it's general rather than specific in its targets. While that may be the legal situation, it's hard to deny that Elam and his ilk are engaged in inciting violence and hate against their particular objects of hate. It is unclear to me whether the US laws could ever be applied to prevent incitement to hate.

In Australia, this flaw is overcome by the use of law to prevent racial/religious/etc vilification. It is a crime here to vilify anyone on the grounds of race, religion sexuality etc. These laws are discussed in some detail here. While the law is very rarely used and prosecutions are even rarer, it does have the pleasant effect of ensuring that Australians don't have to suffer Elam's and his ilk's ugliness. I don't have the feeling that we are missing out on much.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/28/2014 9:51:03 AM >


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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/28/2014 12:21:55 PM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Please accept my apologies for introducing Elam's particular brand of ugly hate into your life. I suspect most of us could live quite happily without ever encountering this psycho or his odious depravity.

Sadly the movement he is said to influence heavily - the (so-called) 'Men's Rights Movement' - is real and its adherents have been responsible for numerous acts of violence here in Australia and I believe in the USA too.


I have heard of the particular "movement" in question, as well as the opinions contained herein, but back in the pre-internet days, it was the kind of stuff you'd hear people rant about in bars or written on bathroom walls. But after reading this and seeing the links to other blogs on the topic, it seemed to confirm something I once heard about the internet being "one big self-referential circle jerk."

I'm not totally against the idea of a "men's movement," at least in the sense of a positive response and a way for men to define what "manhood" actually means, to take responsibility, to be mature, functioning adults in a civilized society where the law requires that all citizens be treated equally. To me, this would require a fundamental and deep commitment to human rights, which seems somewhat absent with this and other blogs I was browsing, beyond just the obligatory disclaimers and lip service. This is where questions of legality can be a bit murky, since someone can throw in disclaimers or make it seem like they're speaking hypothetically.

quote:


I can understand the reluctance of any one to introduce any legislation that limits the right of free speech. I share that reluctance.

One problem with the principle enunciated ("clear and present danger") is that it can be circumvented with a little subtlety. Elam's hate will escape prosecution under this principle as it's general rather than specific in its targets. While that may be the legal situation, it's hard to deny that Elam and his ilk are engaged in inciting violence and hate against their particular objects of hate. It is unclear to me whether the US laws could ever be applied to prevent incitement to hate.


Well, yes, with the right disclaimers and subtlety, I'm sure there are plenty of ways to get around whatever laws may be enacted. One might also mask it in the form of fiction or claim poetic license, which is a whole other can of worms and which can sometimes put the entertainment media on the hot seat.

quote:


In Australia, this flaw is overcome by the use of law to prevent racial/religious/etc vilification. It is a crime here to vilify anyone on the grounds of race, religion sexuality etc. These laws are discussed in some detail here. While the law is very rarely used and prosecutions are even rarer, it does have the pleasant effect of ensuring that Australians don't have to suffer Elam's and his ilk's ugliness. I don't have the feeling that we are missing out on much.


It's hard to say whether a cranky blogger is actually that influential - or if it's more of a symptom of a larger popular culture which seems to be creating guys like this. I think society sometimes tries to dissociate itself from its own "misfits" by suggesting that they're somehow "bizarre anomalies" or "freaks of nature." But these people are "home grown," so to speak.




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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/28/2014 12:38:08 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

So ... an exhortation for us to "police" each other? Weird. I thought that was the government's job (sort of). The use of the word kind of bothers me. "Police". Does that mean we arrest people? No. That would be silly. Do we accuse them, publicly or indict them? "Name and shame"?

The word "police" appears nowhere in Mrs. Obama's speech.


No it doesn't and honestly I have no problem with teaching kids to speak out against racism no matter who is spewing it.

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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/28/2014 2:17:15 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
So, which approach is correct? Should Elam be prosecuted for inciting hate and violence? Or does his right to freedom of speech over-ride all other considerations?

For that? No. As disgusting and hurtful as it is., that sort of speech should never be criminalized. That is the sort of speech best met with more speech.

If you'd looked a little harder you would have found stuff by Elam that was far more directly a call for violence which does cross the line IMO.

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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/28/2014 5:08:47 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I'll hold out for DC swinging back through.

Well, damn. Who can resist an invitation like that?

In my maddening way, my thoughts on thoughts are complex and probably contradictory. Let's see if I can make sense of them in a way that might make sense to others too.


MR. JEFFERSON'S MANDATE

One of my favorite inscriptions in a town rife with them circles the rotunda of the Jefferson Memorial: "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Jefferson wrote that in a September 23, 1800, letter to Benjamin Rush. To me, that's the paramount purpose of the First Amendment and perhaps even liberty itself. If our minds can't be free, neither can anything else. People have the right to believe in the Trinity, the superiority of men, the evils of same-sex marriage, the merits of Celine Dion, the folly of white shoes before Memorial Day, and so forth. I think a free society needs to do its damnedest to let its members minds' roam freely, even at the risk of landing in bad neighborhoods.

So far, so good. Many of us are probably on the same page about this.


AND YET . . .

The tricky part, for me, is that some thoughts are truly toxic--to the thinker, to those thought about, and perhaps even to society at large. The desert monks, whose spirituality played a huge role in shaping the faith and values of the West, were endlessly vigilant about harboring "bad thoughts"--impulses that led to sin. Indeed, what we think of as the seven deadly sins began as a list of "evil thoughts."

More recently, folks in recovery programs have learned to be on guard against "stinking thinking" that can yank one back into the quicksand of self-pity, self-centeredness, and assorted forms of self-destruction. In a socioeconomic context, a key example of stinking thinking is the destructive mindsets that trap people in poverty and dependency. On a larger scale, the 20th century served up example after brutal example of how truly stinking human thinking can get: "Jews deserve death"; "Bolsheviks deserve death"; "Counter-revolutionaries deserve death"; "Uppity Negros deserve death." The heart-rending list goes on.

"What then must we do?" as the photographer kept asking in The Year of Living Dangerously. (I think he was quoting Tolstoy, but I'm too lazy to look it up.)


WHAT THEN?

Step one imho is to resist the allure of easy answers. Step two is to distinguish between the government and other parts of society.

In theory, the government's role should be simple: Ensure freedom of expression for all. In reality, things are much trickier. In the U.S. we accept various legal constraints on free expression: copyrights, libel laws, truth-in-advertising requirements, restrictions on pornography, rules against violating national security, and I'm not sure what else.

Even trickier, I think, is that we expect/allow government at various levels actively to promote certain thoughts. We fund VOA and various other tools for spreading American values. We mandate warnings on cigarettes. We run schools that spend a dozen years per kid imparting thoughts galore to students. We even put words into kids' mouths via the Pledge of Allegiance, which disquiets me. Each of these actions could be a lively thread on its own.

All this to say that legislation about hate crimes is not the sudden, dramatic departure from U.S. tradition and law that it's sometimes portrayed as. It's yet another facet in the thorny question of the government's role in world of ideas. That doesn't, of course, mean that such laws are good policy. Indeed, I'd say they aren't--at least in general. I do, as ever, see two important nuances.

The first is that we've largely forgotten a key reason for hate crime laws: the sad fact that bias crimes were sometimes minimized or even excused when folks in authority shared the prejudices of the perpetrators. Crime Library reports that no white man in the U.S. was ever punished for lynching before 1915. I've read variations on that elsewhere. In my own lifetime, I remember reading about a judge who declared from the bench that he'd given the guilty defendants the minimum sentence because their victims were gay. Hate crime laws, by giving federal prosecutors a legal foot in the door, were designed to remedy this.

The second wrinkle is crimes, such as lynching, that are intended to terrorize and subjugate whole classes of people. I can see the logic in punishing them more severely; the crime's effects ripple far wider.


MRS. OBAMA'S MESSAGE

As the First Lady specifically noted, she was talking about "hearts and minds" rather than laws. Nowhere did she suggest that those making bigoted remarks be policed or prosecuted or punished. Her focus was on individual actions, not governmental policy. Encouraging students' to challenge others' thinking strikes me as the opposite of Orwellian.

What she advocated, in fact, was a classic remedy for foul speech--more speech. She encouraged the young adults before her to speak up, to offer a different perspective when confronted with bigotry. That may, she noted, mean ruffling a few feathers, but surely free speech is worth that. Liberty gives Aunt Agatha the right to opine about "those people"--and others the right to call her on her prejudice. A key question I have for the First Lady's critics has remained unanswered in this thread: How would you advise fledgling citizens to respond to expressions of bigotry?


Dear God, I don't think I've ever gone on quite this long before. Maybe about my health. Thanks to anyone who made it to the end!


< Message edited by dcnovice -- 5/28/2014 5:31:46 PM >


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RE: Curiouser and Curiouser - 5/28/2014 5:41:45 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
A key question I have for the First Lady's critics has remained unanswered in this thread: How would you advise fledgling citizens to respond to expressions of bigotry?

One of the hardest things I've ever done is tell my beloved aunt over a family dinner that I found her bigoted comments unacceptable. I was fresh out of boot camp and it was really my first time in her home as an adult. It did ruin my first leave and put a chill on our relationship for the better part of a decade. However I couldn't sit there and listen to her opine about people she had never met and never even seen.

(in reply to dcnovice)
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