RE: Do we really need men?

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LadyEllen -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 7:28:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: petdave quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Guys - yes youre wanted, yes youre needed; of course we're going to gripe about you now and then - you do after all, all do some inexplicable things and some of you do some terrible things, but we know youre not all bad. So does this mean the cage thing is off? [&o] Most definitely. If you think I'm doing all the cooking and cleaning and waiting on you in that bloody cage hand and foot, you've got another thing coming mister! Lazy men! You only want caging so you can get out of doing anything! Yes - I'm on to you! E

SweetDommes -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 7:42:56 AM)
snickers you're one up on me, Ellen ... that thought hadn't occurred to me this morning (although it has in the past)

Aswad -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 8:06:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama I am a human being. And a dominant. And your equal at minimum, given where you are choosing to post. I unreservedly acknowledge the first of those. The second is a matter of how you identify, so I cede the point. But the last one, we shall have to disagree on. You're bringing up the location in which I am posting, and thus providing a qualifying context for the term "equal." And, as a poster, whether you are equal to me in this debate is a subjective thing. My own opinion of your posting does not permit me to acknowledge you as my equal in the qualifying context you yourself provided. Which is not to say that you will not receive equitable treatement, however distasteful you may find that. quote: Stopping in mid-post during a discussion of a serious issue to objectify me, and use your unsolicited opinion of my appearance as an opportunity tell me how to properly behave? Is rude, obnoxious, sexist behavior. First off, I did not stop in the midst of a discussion to objectify you. I stopped in the midst of your personal attack with no bearing on the discussion to chastize you for it, rather than bother the moderators with something that trivial. In order to soften that up a bit, I phrased it around a compliment on a good quality of yours. And let's get one thing straight, here: If you feel entitled to *insult* the appearance of a male poster, I feel *righteous* in complementing you on yours in the same context. Health, al-Aswad. P.S.: As for the IT field remaining male dominated, don't overestimate my influence. I've changed the workplaces I've had access to.

Aswad -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 8:13:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster You aren't Aswad's equal. Mine maybe, but by my estimation there are few men on these boards who are his equal either. Presumption again. Thank you for the compliment, but it's probably best to let the various posters draw their own conclusions about that. Health, al-Aswad.

nephandi -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 8:29:41 AM)
Hi quote: Well, that's your opinion. Our mileage varies when we encounter people on the Internet, obviously, and the fact that a man can treat submissive women decently is no sign that he can treat dominant women decently, at least in in my experience. i may be just me, but treating somone decently to me do not depend on witch side of the whip they are on or if they are even vanilla. To me treating somone decent is showing consideration and a basic respct for the other person, regardless of how they are. i do not really see that the rule of what are common curtisy change depending on if a person are submissive or Dominant or for that matter man or woman. i wish you well

Aswad -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 8:30:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissMagnolia Try looking up how many Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome women kill/almost kill their own offspring. See, I wasn't going to raise that point... [:D] Now that you have, though, I'd mention that I've got a dear friend whose girlfriend basically tried to starve their baby to death in order to get attention. He's the one who got stuck with a restraining order because of her documented history of self-injury prior to meeting him. Her parents still adore him, since he's the one guy who's actually managed to do some good for him. The courts ruled that primary custody should rest with him (a very rare outcome in Norway). Yet she automatically gets the sympathy. Because she has a vagina. That's not the only case I'm directly familiar with, mind you, but it serves as a disclosure of bias: My concern is assholes, not penii or vaginae. quote: I work with people who have mental health issues and substance abuse problems. Half of them are women. I SEE what horrors these women are capable of. I see the effect it has on their kids. My thanks to you for making the effort. I've been in need of such services myself in the past (MADRS 50-55; refractory), and after I decided to pick up the requisite skills myself, I've done councelling, advice and suicide watches. Some of the cases have been women who have been abused by parents, raped, and the like. Some have also been dear friends, of either gender. It's a hard line of work to be in, as far as I can tell from watching those who do it on a professional basis. And I'm very glad that there are people out there doing it. quote: It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to rant about half the population of the earth. Au contraire. I often rant about percentages as high as 60-90% of the population. What doesn't make sense, is making the penis the sole determinant of what is bad; that's just the same argument that men have been using to support the patriarchy over the years, with the sign inverted. Just as a penis doesn't confer a birthright to dominance, neither does it predestine one to become an abusive bastard, rapist or sociopath. The universal cure for that sort of thing is one of the things I read into the Gorean philosophy (although I'll readily admit that some don't agree with me), namely that one should judge based on merit alone. That leaves no room for discrimination. quote: Oh, and by the way, I have always found Aswad to be the least sexist man on here. He has a beautiful girl that he talks about with love and respect. He is NO mysogynist. My sincere thanks for that compliment. Will you get testy if I comment that you have both inner and outer beauty? [:D] Health, al-Aswad.

nephandi -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 8:34:10 AM)
Hi quote: Women are just as much eachothers' enemy as men are. Women view other women as their competition for men. And thus we treat eachother just as poorly as men treat women. Women need to stick up for eachother and support eachother. I just don't see this happening enough. i agree to this, i have been in conflicts whit both men and woman, and i must say that the most cruel ones, have been woman, whit men i have fought whit my firsts until both was tired, and two weeks later he can no remember what the fight was about, a woman however often hold a grudge forever, and will do whatever it take to hurt the other. Woman often can be extremely cruel to one another and that is very sad. i wish you well

Aswad -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 8:54:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama But patriarchy is most certainly an enemy to me. In this, we have common ground. You see, patriarchy is merely symptomatic of the larger problem of entitlement, birthright and untenable generalizations. quote: Actually, you may not have noticed, but the OP was not addressing men in her post. She may not have addressed men, but she did reference men. Schopenhauer did not address women, but he did reference them, and I would thoroughly support you in denouncing him, even though you do not return the favor. The reason for this is quite simple: I take offense at his stance. Now, I also take offense at inverting the gender in his generalization, and that was my cause for replying here. quote: Her question was not "Should all men be caged?" in reality. Her question was "Does anyone else ever have these thoughts and feelings I am having?" Then it would make sense for her to actually ask the real question, instead of masking it in borderline andricidal commentary. If I'm asking "does anyone else ever roll their eyes at how men rarely get custody of their children", I don't phrase it as a question of whether women should be put in cages and relegated to the role of sex toys and breeding machines. Not even on the Ask a Master forum. Hell, I wouldn't even ask that question on the Gorean boards that you so revile. And my own physical and emotional pain at this time do not figure at all in this regard. quote: A fantasy about men enslaved and locked in cages is HARDLY the end of the world in such a venue![:)] So, a fantasy about 100% of the male population enslaved and locked in cages is hardly the end of the world in this venue... ...yet, a fantasy about 5-10% of the female population enslaved is the end of the world on the Gorean boards? Hell, the latter is probably lower than the number who *would* like that, going by the prevalence of D/s and M/s. quote: Well, that's your opinion. Our mileage varies when we encounter people on the Internet, obviously, and the fact that a man can treat submissive women decently is no sign that he can treat dominant women decently, at least in in my experience. That is an entirely valid observation. A lot of dominant men are not able to treat dominant women decently. If you would accept Najakcharmer as a reference, I'm certain she can vouch that I've always treated her with the utmost respect. quote: Since you speak well of him, I will try to take your word on the subject. Perhaps he is a decent fellow when you catch him on a better thread! Feel free to have a look around. I've probably posted more than a thousand pages of text to this forum, most of it fairly factual and detached. I have been critical of a lot of things, and voiced unpopular opinions at times, but I've never voiced the notion that women are inferior to men, nor that they are less entitled to respect on account of their gender. And, as noted, I've clocked a lot of hours forwarding my position on the Gorean boards that it's not about male supremacy, but about things like freedom, sovereignty, personal accountability, moral integrity, perseverance, striving for excellence and judging each person according to their own merits. There is no rational way to defend the notion that a meritocracy can discriminate along gender lines, and I abhor hypocrisy and inconsistency. Granted, there seems to be a greater number of female submissives and slaves that are of the sort one would want in that lifestyle than there are male ones, but you will find femdoms in this section complaining about that quite often (a lot of males who identify as submissives and slaves are focused on their own kinks, not on their Mistresses, as you well know). My gripe with you has been that (a) you resort to personal attacks, (b) you avoid answering points raised, (c) you do not accord other posters the respect you demand for yourself, (d) your tone is aggressively hostile, and (e) I have personally noted that, among men, the attitude you have displayed in the posts I have replied to has consistently been of the same sort that causes a lot of otherwise decent men to reverse their position on equal rights for women; as I am in favor of ridding the world of gender discrimination, I am concerned with achieving that goal, and consider your attitude to be an obstacle to reaching it. Health, al-Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 9:03:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AthenaNike Women are just as much eachothers' enemy as men are. Women view other women as their competition for men. And thus we treat eachother just as poorly as men treat women. Women need to stick up for eachother and support eachother. I just don't see this happening enough. I've pointed this out for ages. If women had done as you suggest, there would be no patriarchy, for the simple reason that men are addicted to pussy. [:D] Unless I'm mistaken, my girl has said most of what I wanted to say, so I won't repeat it here. I will, however, point out that studies show that men's use of derogatory terms, such as "slut," "whore," and so forth, is no more than parroting the same use by women, who originate these labels and the associated terms. For instance, prostitution originally became reviled because it was a threat to women who sought to marry. Thus, the only thing that virtually all women are guaranteed to be able to derive financial independence from... was torn down... by women. But don't take my word for it; instead, I will suggest you read a feminist text by a fellow dyke: The Slut Manifesto. It extensively discusses the commoditization of the vagina, and women's role in this. It also vents a lot of frustration, similar to what the OP did. So it's pretty free of patriarchal influence. Health, al-Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 9:07:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER I would hate to think of this world without men,who would pay for all those shopping trips,give you those wonderful children to care for,Those nice homes and cars,Of courses many can provide for them selfs but the other 90% of the lazy asses would be in deep shit,ducking and covering..bounty Amusing anecdote... In Sumerian, the masculine concept- as coined by women- goes something like "tireless producers of abundance." Speaking of objectifying, eh? [;)] Health, al-Aswad.

tigerstyle -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 9:25:47 AM)
The thread thus far.... OP: I'm mad as hell and sometimes I fantasize about putting men in cages! Other women: Right on! Doms: Waaaah! We aren't all bad! And men get abused too! SS: You are missing the point. The OP is about expressing valid anger. Aswad: [well reasoned, calm defense of the glaringly obvious: that not all men suck] I took the OP for what it was: a big steam blowoff. I have the complimentary fantasy when I get frustrated with females. No matter how you slice it, it's men who do the lion's share of the violence and oppression in this world. Let's own up to it, stop being defensive and put all this testosterone to work doing something useful. Rage on , say I.

littlesarbonn -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 9:28:17 AM)
Lashra: If it's any consolation, it's not only women who wish they could bash these types of people, but there are men who feel the same way as well. It's not always a gender versus gender thing, but an attitude versus attitude type of thing. I had a colleague when I was teaching in Michigan who was coming to work to teach with bruises, and at one time, she had a chipped tooth. I asked her what was wrong, and she would lie and say it was some type of accident. At one point, I asked her in my unusual investigative way (I was an investigator before becoming an academic) what happened to her, and she started saying something about how her boyfriend wasn't all that bad, realized the direction she was speaking, and then immediately said: "I fell down the stairs." After that, I found an older, highly respected female colleague in our department and revealed what was going on (or at least what I suspected was going on), and she then took up the responsibility of intervening. And she did. Our battered colleague slowly moved out of that environment and into a safer one. Part of the problem of such situations is very much like Burke argues: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." We often overlook events happening around us, like many of the complaints you mentioned, and just kind of hope they go away, or just avoid is so we don't have to think about it. I've become a lot more proactive in dealing with such situations because I came to the realization that if others aren't going to do anything, and I do just like they do, then problems will continue to persist. Part of the solution to such situations is for people to actively do something. Often, when I address female empowerment issues (even just trying to recreate a level playing field), I'm resisted by not only men but by women as well.

aidan -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 9:32:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tigerstyle The thread thus far.... OP: I'm mad as hell and sometimes I fantasize about putting men in cages! Other women: Right on! Doms: Waaaah! We aren't all bad! And men get abused too! SS: You are missing the point. The OP is about expressing valid anger. Aswad: [well reasoned, calm defense of the glaringly obvious: that not all men suck] I took the OP for what it was: a big steam blowoff. I have the complimentary fantasy when I get frustrated with females. No matter how you slice it, it's men who do the lion's share of the violence and oppression in this world. Let's own up to it, stop being defensive and put all this testosterone to work doing something useful. Rage on , say I. Might I add: w00t.

Aswad -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 12:51:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tigerstyle No matter how you slice it, it's men who do the lion's share of the violence and oppression in this world. Note also that it's humans who do virtually all of the violence against other humans in the world. Since such generalizations are useless, can we just restricting things to a useful setting? Around these parts, the equality movement has gotten rather far along. This has turned out to have a rather unintended consequence: the statistics for violence are on the rise, particularly in the younger generation, as women are becoming as violent as men were. The statistics are evening out, but the net result is a significant increase in violence. As far as I can tell, that leaves absolutely no room for any generalization to the effect that men are the root cause of violence, at the very least. Oppression is a function of power, and it's thus rather hard to make useful generalizations about the differences between men and women in this regard; I've certainly seen it. In any case, these figures don't count relational violence and violence against children, where women always reigned supreme here. Health, al-Aswad.

nephandi -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 2:37:46 PM)
Hi Also let s not forget the sad fact that as women have become liberated and more and more work and have careers of their own, forcing the economics in most Western nations to a point where it is no longer a choice for women to work outside the home, they have to as one income will not support the family, more and more children become violent, more and more children come home to empty houses and have no parental supervision most of the day, this creates problems. The world do become more and more violent, and some of the reason though definitely not all, is that before there was normally one parent at home, taking care of the children, they where not allowed to run wild, and if they had a problem it was more easy for the parents to detect it. Now i am not saying i think the woman's liberation is a bad thing, i am glad that women are no longer just the accessory of their males. However the freedom Western woman have to day have come at a cost to society and one can not say that that cost is the fault of men. i wish you all well

rick19 -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 3:12:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama You need to ask yourself what the lives of women in sub-Saharan Africa are like right now, what the lives of womeen in the Islamic world are like, what the lives of women in China and Korea are like, or what women are going through in Latin America. You need to review the statistics--because there is a tsunami of numbers that do not lie, and every one of them is attached to a woman who is suffering and often dying. Combine that with the closer-to-home experience that goes with working at the shelters for victims of rape and domestic violence, or trying to defend a woman's right to choose in the USA, and you might have a far less optimistic view of "male identity"--at least as expressed in the current social framework. And what have you done to help these women, O great one? Also I find it very funny that you are complaining about misogyny, yet take a look at your signature.

petdave -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 3:54:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lady Ellen quote: ORIGINAL: petdave So does this mean the cage thing is off? Most definitely. If you think I'm doing all the cooking and cleaning and waiting on you in that bloody cage hand and foot, you've got another thing coming mister! Lazy men! You only want caging so you can get out of doing anything! Yes - I'm on to you! 'Elp! 'Elp! i'm bein' oppressed by the matriarchy! quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: MissMagnolia It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to rant about half the population of the earth. Au contraire. I often rant about percentages as high as 60-90% of the population. Ah, so your behavior determines whether or not an action can be said to make sense? Typical Dominant Male arrogance! [:D]

darchChylde -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 3:58:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rick19 quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama You need to ask yourself what the lives of women in sub-Saharan Africa are like right now, what the lives of womeen in the Islamic world are like, what the lives of women in China and Korea are like, or what women are going through in Latin America. You need to review the statistics--because there is a tsunami of numbers that do not lie, and every one of them is attached to a woman who is suffering and often dying. Combine that with the closer-to-home experience that goes with working at the shelters for victims of rape and domestic violence, or trying to defend a woman's right to choose in the USA, and you might have a far less optimistic view of "male identity"--at least as expressed in the current social framework. And what have you done to help these women, O great one? Also I find it very funny that you are complaining about misogyny, yet take a look at your signature. i think the word you're looking for is Misandry, my friend. Thank you, MissMorrigan for the word. Misandry (IPA [mɪ.ˈsæn.dri]) is the hatred of men as a sex. It is considered a type of sexism, and those holding misandric beliefs can be of either sex. Misandry is not discussed very often compared to misogyny, an issue feminist writer Judith Levine has drawn attention to in calling misandry "the hate that dares not speak its name".[1]

Aswad -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 4:16:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: petdave Ah, so your behavior determines whether or not an action can be said to make sense? Typical Dominant Male arrogance! [:D] Nah, I'm unique. The others are fallible, you see. [;)] Health, al-Aswad.

ShaktiSama -> RE: Do we really need men? (1/31/2008 7:11:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad So, a fantasy about 100% of the male population enslaved and locked in cages is hardly the end of the world in this venue... ...yet, a fantasy about 5-10% of the female population enslaved is the end of the world on the Gorean boards? You seem to be under the impression that this conversation is taking place on the Gorean forum, and that I have deliberately taken myself into a domain of people whose views and fantasies offend me in order to...be offended! [:D] Funny, but last I noticed, this was the Mistress forum, and the theme was female dominance and male masochism and submission. (And for the record, I personally receive emails every week from men asking and begging to receive treatment far worse than anything mentioned in the OP. There is a reason that it does strike me the way it may have struck you!) quote: And, as noted, I've clocked a lot of hours forwarding my position on the Gorean boards that it's not about male supremacy, but about things like freedom, sovereignty, personal accountability, moral integrity, perseverance, striving for excellence and judging each person according to their own merits. Well, given your behavior, I must admit--I find this very odd. Because so far as I can see, you have deliberately ridden into this situation to "come to the rescue" of a man who 1) chose his own opponent of his own free will, 2) set the rules of engagement and the tone of the exchange by his own choice and thus 3) should have been prepared to fight the battle he chose on his own two feet without your interference, regardless of whether his opponent was male or female. Regardless of whether you cared for my response to him, the boy was lashing out blindly at every women present. He responded to one of us with "100% cognitive failure" simply because she asked him what he meant; he called all the female posters to this thread, and targeted me in particular with the word "swine". After you slap someone with a gauntlet, you had best be prepared to face steel. He was insulted after he had been insulting, not before. quote: My gripe with you has been ... shrug You can either choose to pursue your "gripe" with me or not. I don't see that you have one, really; it seems more like a misunderstanding. You have no more idea who I am or how I typically post than vice versa, and I have no insecurities for you to exploit about being inarticulate, unintelligent, or a poor representative of my gender, especially in terms of my treatment of men.

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